This is my random thought for today...
With the new model for Necromancer's we now gain DO for ALL Trans and Animation spells right? If this isn't so disregaurd...
It seems to me that as spells like Calcified Hide and Philosopher's Preservation if they are granting DO now would also grant a (if not dramatic) noticable increase in effect more so than say all the other related spells?
-The Forsaken Rakash
http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Khiol
KHIOL
GERSTEINJ2
Re: Risk vs Rewards
12/04/2012 10:18 AM CST
trans and animation spells have always given DO.
An arisen dummy zombie bellows, "You will all be ssslaughtered!"
>
An arisen dummy zombie bellows, "You will all be ssslaughtered!"
>
MYTHORLOGICAL
Re: Risk vs Rewards
12/04/2012 10:27 AM CST
I think he's saying there's no upside to the new system. Things have gotten a lot more difficult without any substantial benefit beyond just getting buffs, which everyone else has.
Markat says, "Pleasant people without moral faults, going to church every week and abstaining from sins such as vanity and zombies. Feh...."
Markat says, "Pleasant people without moral faults, going to church every week and abstaining from sins such as vanity and zombies. Feh...."
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Risk vs Rewards
12/04/2012 10:47 AM CST
>>I think he's saying there's no upside to the new system.
As far as I understand it, the DO system didn't change at all (yet?).
>>Things have gotten a lot more difficult without any substantial benefit beyond just getting buffs, which everyone else has.
Given the fact that spells like CH and and PHP always gave DO, how did casting them get a lot more difficult in relation to DO?
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
As far as I understand it, the DO system didn't change at all (yet?).
>>Things have gotten a lot more difficult without any substantial benefit beyond just getting buffs, which everyone else has.
Given the fact that spells like CH and and PHP always gave DO, how did casting them get a lot more difficult in relation to DO?
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Risk vs Rewards
12/04/2012 10:57 AM CST
I believe the impending 'upside' is that DO will have a wider range. So, if you could previously get smitten for, say, 10 casts of a Trans spell, now it'll take 100, but every type of spell you cast will count towards that.
I'm a little iffy on it as well, because as a Magic secondary, I've tried to keep my magics high. But we'll have to see how it pans out.
I'm a little iffy on it as well, because as a Magic secondary, I've tried to keep my magics high. But we'll have to see how it pans out.
FELONIOUSPI
Re: Risk vs Rewards
12/04/2012 11:10 AM CST
>Given the fact that spells like CH and and PHP always gave DO, how did casting them get a lot more difficult in relation to DO?
For one , you have to cast CH or Worm to learn Warding at all. I don't know if I have to explain what that implies .
For one , you have to cast CH or Worm to learn Warding at all. I don't know if I have to explain what that implies .
FELONIOUSPI
Re: Risk vs Rewards
12/04/2012 11:11 AM CST
Unless of course Lay Ward is teaching you. For me it is not.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Risk vs Rewards
12/04/2012 11:15 AM CST
>>For one , you have to cast CH or Worm to learn Warding at all. I don't know if I have to explain what that implies .
The original poster was talking about spell effects, not experience.
>>Unless of course Lay Ward is teaching you. For me it is not.
What's your Warding skill/what are you casting at? Did you try Manifest Force?
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
The original poster was talking about spell effects, not experience.
>>Unless of course Lay Ward is teaching you. For me it is not.
What's your Warding skill/what are you casting at? Did you try Manifest Force?
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
MYTHORLOGICAL
Re: Risk vs Rewards
12/04/2012 11:18 AM CST
>I believe the impending 'upside' is that DO will have a wider range.
I wouldn't call that an upside. Of course no one has given us any concrete information, but giving DO a wider range isn't a guarantee that training magic won't cause max DO.
An upside would be like... Worm's mist actually being the best magic barrier in the game, which it isn't. In 3.0, it's no better protection than LW, and has a tremendous downside.
Or another upside would be our buffs paying out more than average. Or requiring less mana to cap. Just examples. But "it'll take longer to kill you, but you're now forced to use it to train" isn't an upside, imo.
Markat says, "Pleasant people without moral faults, going to church every week and abstaining from sins such as vanity and zombies. Feh...."
I wouldn't call that an upside. Of course no one has given us any concrete information, but giving DO a wider range isn't a guarantee that training magic won't cause max DO.
An upside would be like... Worm's mist actually being the best magic barrier in the game, which it isn't. In 3.0, it's no better protection than LW, and has a tremendous downside.
Or another upside would be our buffs paying out more than average. Or requiring less mana to cap. Just examples. But "it'll take longer to kill you, but you're now forced to use it to train" isn't an upside, imo.
Markat says, "Pleasant people without moral faults, going to church every week and abstaining from sins such as vanity and zombies. Feh...."
FELONIOUSPI
Re: Risk vs Rewards
12/04/2012 11:26 AM CST
>What's your Warding skill/what are you casting at? Did you try Manifest Force?
Warding is at 209 , I skipped MAF because it was an easier spell. But I'll try it later anyways.
>but giving DO a wider range isn't a guarantee that training magic won't cause max DO.
Warding is at 209 , I skipped MAF because it was an easier spell. But I'll try it later anyways.
>but giving DO a wider range isn't a guarantee that training magic won't cause max DO.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Risk vs Rewards
12/04/2012 11:30 AM CST
>>In 3.0, it's no better protection than LW, and has a tremendous downside.
While I tend to prefer LW over WORM, WORM is definitely stronger.
Would be nice if WORM resisted Dispel better than normal wards, but that has nothing to do with DO.
>>Warding is at 209 , I skipped MAF because it was an easier spell. But I'll try it later anyways.
You might be doing something wrong if you're not learning warding with LW at 209 magic. I have over double that and can move warding fine with LW. I tend to use MAF since it's a harder spell, though. Are you casting LW at your personal cap?
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
While I tend to prefer LW over WORM, WORM is definitely stronger.
Would be nice if WORM resisted Dispel better than normal wards, but that has nothing to do with DO.
>>Warding is at 209 , I skipped MAF because it was an easier spell. But I'll try it later anyways.
You might be doing something wrong if you're not learning warding with LW at 209 magic. I have over double that and can move warding fine with LW. I tend to use MAF since it's a harder spell, though. Are you casting LW at your personal cap?
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
FELONIOUSPI
Re: Risk vs Rewards
12/04/2012 11:38 AM CST
I last tested it a few days ago. I think I was capped at 35? Anyhow , I'll give LW and MAF another go later.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Risk vs Rewards
12/04/2012 01:04 PM CST
>I wouldn't call that an upside. Of course no one has given us any concrete information, but giving DO a wider range isn't a guarantee that training magic won't cause max DO.
No, that is an upside; if you can cast more spells before getting DO smitten, than that's the upside.
This is starting to sound a lot like the griping that happened prior to Exp 2.0; yes, learning rates will go down for skills at mindlock, but the good news is there's a deeper pool of field xp to fill, and thus, you don't have to spend all your training time sitting at mindlock. The same thing is potentially happening here; you do have to worry about DO, but you it'll take more effort to get to the point where DO results in a smite.
No, that is an upside; if you can cast more spells before getting DO smitten, than that's the upside.
This is starting to sound a lot like the griping that happened prior to Exp 2.0; yes, learning rates will go down for skills at mindlock, but the good news is there's a deeper pool of field xp to fill, and thus, you don't have to spend all your training time sitting at mindlock. The same thing is potentially happening here; you do have to worry about DO, but you it'll take more effort to get to the point where DO results in a smite.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Risk vs Rewards
12/04/2012 01:43 PM CST
There's a lot of misinformation floating around.
1) There has been no changes to DO at the system level and none are planned to roll into 3.0.
2) Only one spell has been altered to grant DO (Blood Burst, which was always supposed to).
3) There has been no discussion about changing the range of DO.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
1) There has been no changes to DO at the system level and none are planned to roll into 3.0.
2) Only one spell has been altered to grant DO (Blood Burst, which was always supposed to).
3) There has been no discussion about changing the range of DO.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Risk vs Rewards
12/04/2012 01:45 PM CST
I was definitely under the impression that eventually all our spells would cause DO, and at the risk of sounding like I'm pointing fingers, I could have sworn you gave me that impression Armifer.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Risk vs Rewards
12/04/2012 01:52 PM CST
>>I was definitely under the impression that eventually all our spells would cause DO
There was discussion about it, but it's not on the docket right now ("none are planned to roll into 3.0").
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
There was discussion about it, but it's not on the docket right now ("none are planned to roll into 3.0").
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Risk vs Rewards
12/04/2012 01:56 PM CST
>>I was definitely under the impression that eventually all our spells would cause DO, and at the risk of sounding like I'm pointing fingers, I could have sworn you gave me that impression Armifer.
We talked about it, then I posted that it wasn't going to happen at least until I could sit down and do a comprehensive review of DO.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
We talked about it, then I posted that it wasn't going to happen at least until I could sit down and do a comprehensive review of DO.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
JHALIASCLERIC
KHIOL
Re: Risk vs Rewards
12/04/2012 03:05 PM CST
>2) Only one spell has been altered to grant DO (Blood Burst, which was always supposed to).
If this is it I'm good considering the collateral damage add its a fair trade.
Thanks for the clear up Armifer!
-The Forsaken Rakash
http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Khiol
If this is it I'm good considering the collateral damage add its a fair trade.
Thanks for the clear up Armifer!
-The Forsaken Rakash
http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Khiol
MYTHORLOGICAL
Re: Risk vs Rewards
12/04/2012 07:40 PM CST
>3) There has been no discussion about changing the range of DO.
People have been speculating about that because, as we've discussed in the thread called "DO", some of us are concerned that having to train magic using DO causing spells will quickly max DO. For HL necros in particular, this is not a happy prospect.
We've been waiting to get a response in that thread. I'd appreciate if you would read it and tell us what is actually going on, and what the GMs' perspectives on this issue were while designing it.
Markat says, "Pleasant people without moral faults, going to church every week and abstaining from sins such as vanity and zombies. Feh...."
People have been speculating about that because, as we've discussed in the thread called "DO", some of us are concerned that having to train magic using DO causing spells will quickly max DO. For HL necros in particular, this is not a happy prospect.
We've been waiting to get a response in that thread. I'd appreciate if you would read it and tell us what is actually going on, and what the GMs' perspectives on this issue were while designing it.
Markat says, "Pleasant people without moral faults, going to church every week and abstaining from sins such as vanity and zombies. Feh...."
JHALIASCLERIC
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: Risk vs Rewards
12/04/2012 08:54 PM CST
>People have been speculating about that because, as we've discussed in the thread called "DO", some of us are concerned that having to train magic using DO causing spells will quickly max DO. For HL necros in particular, this is not a happy prospect.
Read: Necros say they have to use DO generating spells to train in the new 3.0 environment because non-DO generating spells are either too easy, or don't teach, etc.
Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.
Read: Necros say they have to use DO generating spells to train in the new 3.0 environment because non-DO generating spells are either too easy, or don't teach, etc.
Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.
FALLENSHADOWS
Re: Risk vs Rewards
12/05/2012 05:56 AM CST
Necromancers might benefit from taking up the new scroll spell system. The learning of specific skills is deterimined by how close to the cap you are to casting the spell and that cap will be significantly lower due to low sorcery ranks. You'll find casting another guilds spells teaches you very well.
You'll have to suffer the consequences of learning like this, but necros are better equipped to do this than others.
_______________________
It is impossible to strive for the heroic life. The title of hero is bestowed by the survivors upon the fallen, who themselves know nothing of heroism.
-Johan Huizinga
The Light is Crimson through the Darkness.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Risk vs Rewards
12/05/2012 06:40 AM CST
I may end up removing the DO hit from Transcendental spells, though that strikes me as conceptually weird and undesirable. Possibly a daily limit to how much TN can up your DO instead.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
BRYCOLE83
Re: Risk vs Rewards
12/05/2012 08:38 AM CST
>> I may end up removing the DO hit from Transcendental spells, though that strikes me as conceptually weird and undesirable. Possibly a daily limit to how much TN can up your DO instead.
As a new Necro, the whole DO autokill seems counter productive to me. For example, if I want to hunt or train regularly with DO spells, its basically a DO death sentence. So that pretty much means I won't use them unless its PvP which is pretty rare BC I Dont out myself using Trans spells.
On the other hand Im more then willing to deal with all consequence of walking around with full trans up, including all the SO, DO, and character interactions that come up, but not auto death. It just puts a damper on things.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Risk vs Rewards
12/05/2012 09:12 AM CST
It might be interesting to see DO treated similarly to the way war mages align with the elements, only Necros are either "little DO" or "lots of DO".
Low DO makes you less vulnerable to holy magic, maybe even being able to do things like SRE if killed by holy spells.
High DO makes you more vulnerable to holy magic but develop undead-like passive magical resistance (which IMO needs reworking as a whole, anyway).
Low DO masks trascendental magics showing up on your LOOK, but they have a lower integrity.
High DO makes trascendental magic more obvious on your LOOK, but they have a higher integrity.
Low DO makes it so you can't create zombies.
High DO makes it so your zombies have a passive stat/skill boost.
Throw in a TM damage boost for using necro TM spells while your DO is high, too.
This way, people have solid reasons to want higher DO and push up against that Immortal smiting barrier. The fact that many of the high DO aspects are things that would be PvWorld-beneficial would make it an attractive option for people who embrace the idea of being Perverse city-stompers.
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
Low DO makes you less vulnerable to holy magic, maybe even being able to do things like SRE if killed by holy spells.
High DO makes you more vulnerable to holy magic but develop undead-like passive magical resistance (which IMO needs reworking as a whole, anyway).
Low DO masks trascendental magics showing up on your LOOK, but they have a lower integrity.
High DO makes trascendental magic more obvious on your LOOK, but they have a higher integrity.
Low DO makes it so you can't create zombies.
High DO makes it so your zombies have a passive stat/skill boost.
Throw in a TM damage boost for using necro TM spells while your DO is high, too.
This way, people have solid reasons to want higher DO and push up against that Immortal smiting barrier. The fact that many of the high DO aspects are things that would be PvWorld-beneficial would make it an attractive option for people who embrace the idea of being Perverse city-stompers.
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
KHIOL
Re: Risk vs Rewards
12/05/2012 10:30 AM CST
>I may end up removing the DO hit from Transcendental spells, though that strikes me as conceptually weird and undesirable. Possibly a daily limit to how much TN can up your DO instead.
daily limit 12-15% from each DO giving spellbook? smite-level DO to lowest possible DO is say 72hrs logged in or out?
-The Forsaken Rakash
http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Khiol
daily limit 12-15% from each DO giving spellbook? smite-level DO to lowest possible DO is say 72hrs logged in or out?
-The Forsaken Rakash
http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Khiol
JASON42
Re: Risk vs Rewards
12/05/2012 12:14 PM CST
>>It might be interesting to see DO treated similarly to the way war mages align with the elements, only Necros are either "little DO" or "lots of DO".
^ Great idea. Maybe add some kind of passive boost to ALL spells and abilities with higher DO, but make the concealment of that corruption more difficult & the vulnerability to holy magic & social outrage scale as well.
Maybe treat it like the Ranger Bonus? - except the higher it gets, the more vulnerable you become... good segue into lichdom?
A. Necro Bob uses zero DO causing spells & tries to remain completely uncorrupted = Redeemed. Can use town services & has little chance of being outed with a low vulnerability to social outrage & holy magic. No chance of divine smiting.
B. Necro Bill practices moderate use of DO causing spells & maintains a good balance = Philosopher. Enjoys some benefits of both bonuses & town services but has to attempt to disguise his corruption with varying levels of effort & success. Random chance of divine smiting above a certain level, but not GUARANTEED at any specific level.
C. Necro Joe is building an undead army to try and take over. He cares NOT for Divine or Social outrage = Lichdom. He enjoys maximum bonus to spells & abilities, but runs an extremely high risk of being outed, accused, burned alive, hunted down, & otherwise hated by the public if he goes anywhere NEAR a town. Cannot use services without capped ROC & considerable luck. Random chance of divine smiting above a certain level, but not GUARANTEED at any specific level.
- Kart / Rhoat
^ Great idea. Maybe add some kind of passive boost to ALL spells and abilities with higher DO, but make the concealment of that corruption more difficult & the vulnerability to holy magic & social outrage scale as well.
Maybe treat it like the Ranger Bonus? - except the higher it gets, the more vulnerable you become... good segue into lichdom?
A. Necro Bob uses zero DO causing spells & tries to remain completely uncorrupted = Redeemed. Can use town services & has little chance of being outed with a low vulnerability to social outrage & holy magic. No chance of divine smiting.
B. Necro Bill practices moderate use of DO causing spells & maintains a good balance = Philosopher. Enjoys some benefits of both bonuses & town services but has to attempt to disguise his corruption with varying levels of effort & success. Random chance of divine smiting above a certain level, but not GUARANTEED at any specific level.
C. Necro Joe is building an undead army to try and take over. He cares NOT for Divine or Social outrage = Lichdom. He enjoys maximum bonus to spells & abilities, but runs an extremely high risk of being outed, accused, burned alive, hunted down, & otherwise hated by the public if he goes anywhere NEAR a town. Cannot use services without capped ROC & considerable luck. Random chance of divine smiting above a certain level, but not GUARANTEED at any specific level.
- Kart / Rhoat
DURATHING
Re: Risk vs Rewards
12/05/2012 12:27 PM CST
> Random chance of divine smiting above a certain level, but not GUARANTEED at any specific level.
I believe this is what we have right now, this is what we have right now:
"If you hit endzone on Divine Outrage, casting any further spell causing Outrage will have a >5% chance of being slain on the spot in entirely undramatic fashion."
- http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Outrage
I believe this is what we have right now, this is what we have right now:
"If you hit endzone on Divine Outrage, casting any further spell causing Outrage will have a >5% chance of being slain on the spot in entirely undramatic fashion."
- http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Outrage
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Risk vs Rewards
12/05/2012 12:56 PM CST
>It might be interesting to see DO treated similarly to the way war mages align with the elements, only Necros are either "little DO" or "lots of DO"
I think this is an awesome idea; it keeps us involved in the system, and means we think about what we're doing.
I think this is an awesome idea; it keeps us involved in the system, and means we think about what we're doing.
MYTHORLOGICAL
Re: Risk vs Rewards
12/05/2012 02:32 PM CST
I actually like the idea of having an upside to high DO. Higher DO making BLB more powerful is very appealing. Higher DO making all of the DO giving spells more powerful would be fantastic. That would be an upside worth having.
However I am opposed to making us weaker against clerics than we already are. Their magic's current OPness against us should be the cap of the spectrum, not the baseline. It's already kind of ridiculous.
Also, I hate the ">5% chance of death" thing. That always bugged me, but especially now... >5% could be 100%. It's like those sales that advertise "UP TO 75% off!!@!", but when you get there it's like one crappy thing for 75% off and mostly things for 5-10% off.
Markat says, "Pleasant people without moral faults, going to church every week and abstaining from sins such as vanity and zombies. Feh...."
However I am opposed to making us weaker against clerics than we already are. Their magic's current OPness against us should be the cap of the spectrum, not the baseline. It's already kind of ridiculous.
Also, I hate the ">5% chance of death" thing. That always bugged me, but especially now... >5% could be 100%. It's like those sales that advertise "UP TO 75% off!!@!", but when you get there it's like one crappy thing for 75% off and mostly things for 5-10% off.
Markat says, "Pleasant people without moral faults, going to church every week and abstaining from sins such as vanity and zombies. Feh...."
FALLENSHADOWS
Re: Risk vs Rewards
12/05/2012 07:41 PM CST
>>It might be interesting to see DO treated similarly to the way war mages align with the elements, only Necros are either "little DO" or "lots of DO".
For some reason this immediately invoked the image of a Necromancer doing something like this.
path DO Admittance
>You make a series of rude gestures at the heavens.
_______________________
It is impossible to strive for the heroic life. The title of hero is bestowed by the survivors upon the fallen, who themselves know nothing of heroism.
-Johan Huizinga
The Light is Crimson through the Darkness.
For some reason this immediately invoked the image of a Necromancer doing something like this.
path DO Admittance
>You make a series of rude gestures at the heavens.
_______________________
It is impossible to strive for the heroic life. The title of hero is bestowed by the survivors upon the fallen, who themselves know nothing of heroism.
-Johan Huizinga
The Light is Crimson through the Darkness.
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: Risk vs Rewards
12/05/2012 08:47 PM CST
>You make a series of rude gestures at the heavens.
Socharis, Armifer, Grejuva, Ricinus, Kodius, and Leonardo, can I please please please PLEASE get this as a cleric accessible spell prep? It would completely in my RP.
And I'd shut up for like 3 months.
Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.
Socharis, Armifer, Grejuva, Ricinus, Kodius, and Leonardo, can I please please please PLEASE get this as a cleric accessible spell prep? It would completely in my RP.
And I'd shut up for like 3 months.
Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.
SHADOWCHIEF3
Re: Risk vs Rewards
12/05/2012 11:54 PM CST
If I didn't have to see him post for 3 months i'd approve that... real quick.
