So, with each spell causing DO, and there being 4 extra skills to train now, how does the DO accumulation go with casting to train for each skill?
I'm not sure how much DO was added to each, but I'm wondering if it will be near impossible to train once the cap is reached. Not only that, but how manageable is the DO system when trying to train TM, Debil, Aug, Utility, and Warding? Will we have to actually choose which skills we want to train? or will it be possible to efficiently train all of them without going overboard on DO?
The only reason I ask,is because we'll have to (presumably) cast 5 times as much, which means not just gaining DO for every spell, but getting 5 times as much outrage since we'll be training for 5 different skills.
Another question, has anyone been able to test to make sure the DO indication thresholds are still working? With the changes to spell preps (guild/illusory/silent) and the requirements of feats to use them, does the spell prep forcibly change near the smiting point?
CRAVYD
BRYCOLE83
Re: DO
12/01/2012 01:15 PM CST
>> The only reason I ask,is because we'll have to (presumably) cast 5 times as much, which means not just gaining DO for every spell, but getting 5 times as much outrage since we'll be training for 5 different skills.
When I was on my Bard casting near cap, I was getting 10x the normal experience. On 1 cast I would go up 5-6 mindstates. If you can learn on a spell, you will probably be at less total casts then before.
When I was on my Bard casting near cap, I was getting 10x the normal experience. On 1 cast I would go up 5-6 mindstates. If you can learn on a spell, you will probably be at less total casts then before.
MYTHORLOGICAL
Re: DO
12/01/2012 01:28 PM CST
>If you can learn on a spell, you will probably be at less total casts then before.
Considering that most (or all) necromancers currently do not use DO incurring spells to train magic, I don't think that's the point.
I've also been concerned that having to train the different magic skills will make necromancers unplayable, particularly at higher ranks. At lower ranks, you can use some of the AP spells to train, but at higher levels, I feel like we're kind of screwed. We already have higher base DO, and have to cast harder spells to train, and more of them.
Markat says, "Pleasant people without moral faults, going to church every week and abstaining from sins such as vanity and zombies. Feh...."
Considering that most (or all) necromancers currently do not use DO incurring spells to train magic, I don't think that's the point.
I've also been concerned that having to train the different magic skills will make necromancers unplayable, particularly at higher ranks. At lower ranks, you can use some of the AP spells to train, but at higher levels, I feel like we're kind of screwed. We already have higher base DO, and have to cast harder spells to train, and more of them.
Markat says, "Pleasant people without moral faults, going to church every week and abstaining from sins such as vanity and zombies. Feh...."
DARKANGEL23
Re: DO
12/01/2012 01:35 PM CST
I believe there are still timers per book its just that all the books now have DO rather than just the current two. In which case you should be able to pop out a few casts at high mana if your using camb and harness which should get your magics moving. I think the whole reason they changed this is because of this statement:
>Considering that most (or all) necromancers currently do not use DO incurring spells to train magic
DO is meant to be managed not avoided all together. I definitly think you guys should test the limits in the test instance to get an idea. There may be numbers that need tweaking. But really whats the point of all those glorious spells if youre never using them because youre scared of the consequences that (as a player mind you) you knew were there?
Also keep in mind you dont need "higher" spells to train. This is gone in 3.0. You just need to use more mana. Even my intro level Moon Mage spells train me just fine if I cast them high enough.
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
>Considering that most (or all) necromancers currently do not use DO incurring spells to train magic
DO is meant to be managed not avoided all together. I definitly think you guys should test the limits in the test instance to get an idea. There may be numbers that need tweaking. But really whats the point of all those glorious spells if youre never using them because youre scared of the consequences that (as a player mind you) you knew were there?
Also keep in mind you dont need "higher" spells to train. This is gone in 3.0. You just need to use more mana. Even my intro level Moon Mage spells train me just fine if I cast them high enough.
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
MYTHORLOGICAL
Re: DO
12/01/2012 01:56 PM CST
I use all of the DO spells on a regular basis, I just don't use them to train because they would quickly make my character unplayable. And having a 5 minute timer doesn't matter if you have to cast the spells over and over every day. There's a big difference between "getting your magics moving" and "getting your magics moving regularly". DO doesn't drain nearly as fast as it accrues.
Also, I do need "higher" spells to learn. I've cast a lot of capped spells in test, and they barely move my magics at all. But the distinction I was trying to make is that at higher levels, I can't use basic or AP spells to train, so I'll be forced to cast a spell like worm's mist over and over.
If you've never actually had a DO death (or moreover, if you don't play a necromancer), I'm not sure you can speak on this topic with any authority. I have. I went out of my way to get one around 70th circle, and all it took was keeping php and ch up for about 2 weeks. Not casting them constantly, just keeping them up. It took about 2 weeks of not casting any DO spells for the DO to drain to the point where my bolt wasn't acid any more and my aura wasn't the "death of meaning" or whatever. And that's not fully drained, it's just drained to the next level down. Now I'm well over twice the circle, so my base DO is a lot higher. If the spells are giving anywhere near the same level of DO in 3.0 that they do in 2.0, I can't help but believe that trying to train my magic regularly will make my character unplayable.
Why don't I go spend 2 weeks in test seeing if this is true? Frankly it's too much work, and I have nothing to gauge my DO level to see how fast it accrues/drains. A GM should be able to forecast based on my base DO and the amount of DO given by each spell how long it would take to max out DO.
This is probably the #1 issue with 3.0 that would make me quit, and that's not any kind of a threat or ultimatum. I just honestly don't see how a HL necromancer who wants to keep training magic will be playable.
Markat says, "Pleasant people without moral faults, going to church every week and abstaining from sins such as vanity and zombies. Feh...."
Also, I do need "higher" spells to learn. I've cast a lot of capped spells in test, and they barely move my magics at all. But the distinction I was trying to make is that at higher levels, I can't use basic or AP spells to train, so I'll be forced to cast a spell like worm's mist over and over.
If you've never actually had a DO death (or moreover, if you don't play a necromancer), I'm not sure you can speak on this topic with any authority. I have. I went out of my way to get one around 70th circle, and all it took was keeping php and ch up for about 2 weeks. Not casting them constantly, just keeping them up. It took about 2 weeks of not casting any DO spells for the DO to drain to the point where my bolt wasn't acid any more and my aura wasn't the "death of meaning" or whatever. And that's not fully drained, it's just drained to the next level down. Now I'm well over twice the circle, so my base DO is a lot higher. If the spells are giving anywhere near the same level of DO in 3.0 that they do in 2.0, I can't help but believe that trying to train my magic regularly will make my character unplayable.
Why don't I go spend 2 weeks in test seeing if this is true? Frankly it's too much work, and I have nothing to gauge my DO level to see how fast it accrues/drains. A GM should be able to forecast based on my base DO and the amount of DO given by each spell how long it would take to max out DO.
This is probably the #1 issue with 3.0 that would make me quit, and that's not any kind of a threat or ultimatum. I just honestly don't see how a HL necromancer who wants to keep training magic will be playable.
Markat says, "Pleasant people without moral faults, going to church every week and abstaining from sins such as vanity and zombies. Feh...."
DURATHING
Re: DO
12/01/2012 01:57 PM CST
I remember that the DO mechanic change was discussed awhile back, but I don't see it in the list of changes.
(https://www.sebeni.us/public/dr3/Necromancers.html)
Is it active in test?
(https://www.sebeni.us/public/dr3/Necromancers.html)
Is it active in test?
CRAVYD
Re: DO
12/01/2012 02:03 PM CST
No way to test, really, unless you've got a necro near cap/forsaken
TEVESHSZAT
Re: DO
12/01/2012 02:03 PM CST
I don't think DO was tweaked, with the exception BLB giving DO like it always was meant to.
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
JASON42
Re: DO
12/01/2012 02:30 PM CST
Last info on DO was it was being tabled for further review - having explored the higher end of the DO spectrum I can tell you that there is no quantifiably judicious amount of consistent use that will result in being able to consistently train a necro (particularly into the higher circles). Once you hit the DO threshold, smiting does not currently reduce the penalty enough to continue using the abilities without constantly dieing over and over. Multiplying the necessity to cast by a factor of 5 (or 6) is not going to make this any better - I'm sure this is being accounted for.
TEVESHSZAT whats your experience with it in Plat so far - any issues?
- Kart / Rhoat
TEVESHSZAT whats your experience with it in Plat so far - any issues?
- Kart / Rhoat
TEVESHSZAT
Re: DO
12/01/2012 02:35 PM CST
>>TEVESHSZAT whats your experience with it in Plat so far - any issues?
I have trouble locking thanatology at-level without taking a lot of time and focusing strictly on using arise.
But I consider that more:
1) An exp tweak that needs to be done because we kill slower
2) Thanatology moving from secondary to prime
3) I was grandfathered ~60 ranks of Thanatology, so now my non-evasion combats are now in the 300-360 range while my thanatology is around 460, so it might be that I just can't hunt harder critters to move it.
In a perfect world I'd be learning nicely with harvest, mainly because I miss getting skinning exp while hunting my humanoid box dropping mobs like orcs, graverobbers, etc.
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
I have trouble locking thanatology at-level without taking a lot of time and focusing strictly on using arise.
But I consider that more:
1) An exp tweak that needs to be done because we kill slower
2) Thanatology moving from secondary to prime
3) I was grandfathered ~60 ranks of Thanatology, so now my non-evasion combats are now in the 300-360 range while my thanatology is around 460, so it might be that I just can't hunt harder critters to move it.
In a perfect world I'd be learning nicely with harvest, mainly because I miss getting skinning exp while hunting my humanoid box dropping mobs like orcs, graverobbers, etc.
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
MYTHORLOGICAL
Re: DO
12/01/2012 02:46 PM CST
>I'm sure this is being accounted for.
I'm not... Have any GM's said that it has been accounted for? Because it seems rather the opposite, that this paradigm is intended.
Markat says, "Pleasant people without moral faults, going to church every week and abstaining from sins such as vanity and zombies. Feh...."
I'm not... Have any GM's said that it has been accounted for? Because it seems rather the opposite, that this paradigm is intended.
Markat says, "Pleasant people without moral faults, going to church every week and abstaining from sins such as vanity and zombies. Feh...."
JASON42
Re: DO
12/01/2012 03:04 PM CST
>>I'm not... Have any GM's said that it has been accounted for?
Not as it pertains to 3.0 since its viable testability, though Armifer DID specifically say DO tweaks were slated for further review before implementation (several months ago).
I wouldnt worry too much about it - pretty sure if it ends up being the case that Necro are A. Untrainable OR B. Unplayable - tweaks will be made. Nobody wants Necros to be unplayable... least of all the people who hope to keep receiving your $15 / month.
- Kart / Rhoat
Not as it pertains to 3.0 since its viable testability, though Armifer DID specifically say DO tweaks were slated for further review before implementation (several months ago).
I wouldnt worry too much about it - pretty sure if it ends up being the case that Necro are A. Untrainable OR B. Unplayable - tweaks will be made. Nobody wants Necros to be unplayable... least of all the people who hope to keep receiving your $15 / month.
- Kart / Rhoat
JASON42
Re: DO
12/01/2012 03:05 PM CST
>>I have trouble locking thanatology at-level without taking a lot of time and focusing strictly on using arise.
I noticed that as well with the limited amount of than use I did when I tested - have you tried zombifying anything yet? It felt like that taught quite a bit more...
- Kart / Rhoat
I noticed that as well with the limited amount of than use I did when I tested - have you tried zombifying anything yet? It felt like that taught quite a bit more...
- Kart / Rhoat
TEVESHSZAT
Re: DO
12/01/2012 03:12 PM CST
>>I noticed that as well with the limited amount of than use I did when I tested - have you tried zombifying anything yet? It felt like that taught quite a bit more...
Depends on the zombie's kill rate. I gained thanatology a lot better with a clan-chief killing raiders than I did with a raider killing other raiders.
I'm a fan of having zombies around for 2+ hours, though. That's a nice 3.0 thing.
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
Depends on the zombie's kill rate. I gained thanatology a lot better with a clan-chief killing raiders than I did with a raider killing other raiders.
I'm a fan of having zombies around for 2+ hours, though. That's a nice 3.0 thing.
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
SHADOWCHIEF3
Re: DO
12/01/2012 03:43 PM CST
I'm sure the GM's will work out DO. But yeah its pretty harsh in 2.0 if you want to rely on keeping trans spells up while hunting. I moved to a new hunting ground and kept it up while hunting for about a week or two and reached default prep mode. I'm only 112th circle so i'm not even that far up the DO ladder yet, I don't think at least I have no idea how that scales level wise.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: DO
12/01/2012 03:50 PM CST
If it helps any, you can move augmentation with Researcher's Insight and Obfuscation, warding with Lay Ward/Manifest Force, utility with Rite of Contrition and Eyes of the Blind, and any of our spells of debilitation. None of those, to my knowledge, currently cause Divine Outrage. I don't think the "everything causes Divine Outrage" is a 3.0 thing (yet?).
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
SHADOWCHIEF3
Re: DO
12/01/2012 04:03 PM CST
I don't its changed yet either. I don't think they're talking about whats current in test, but rather what was talked about and how it was supposed to be in the future.
MOCKERJB
Re: DO
12/01/2012 04:13 PM CST
<<Also keep in mind you dont need "higher" spells to train. This is gone in 3.0. You just need to use more mana. Even my intro level Moon Mage spells train me just fine if I cast them high enough.>>
This is not quite accurate. I don't learn any lunar magic from most of our spells, capped. I need to cast esoteric spells at the cap to learn lunary magic, so Einmyria's concern makes a lot of sense for necromancers. There aren't a ton of esoteric choices, and if the couple you have get you killed after a couple casts...higher skilled characters are pretty screwed.
This is not quite accurate. I don't learn any lunar magic from most of our spells, capped. I need to cast esoteric spells at the cap to learn lunary magic, so Einmyria's concern makes a lot of sense for necromancers. There aren't a ton of esoteric choices, and if the couple you have get you killed after a couple casts...higher skilled characters are pretty screwed.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: DO
12/01/2012 04:36 PM CST
>>This is not quite accurate. I don't learn any lunar magic from most of our spells, capped. I need to cast esoteric spells at the cap to learn lunary magic, so Einmyria's concern makes a lot of sense for necromancers.
What kind of magics are we looking at where advanced spells stop working in terms of training?
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
What kind of magics are we looking at where advanced spells stop working in terms of training?
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
JASON42
Re: DO
12/02/2012 01:57 PM CST
>>I'm not... Have any GM's said that it has been accounted for?
It just occurs to me that YES it is somewhat accounted for - durations for DO causing spells has been SIGNIFICANTLY increased - casting CFB at high enough prep can result in over two hours worth of zombie awesomeness - and many of the other DO heavy spells like PHP have had their duration pushed upwards of 60+ roisaen from what I've seen -
Nobody has said as much, but the extended spell durations are somewhat self-explanatory. Still like to see some more deliberate changes to the way DO drains, but increasing duration is a good start at making the DO hit for casting certain spells more acceptable, IMO.
- Kart / Rhoat
It just occurs to me that YES it is somewhat accounted for - durations for DO causing spells has been SIGNIFICANTLY increased - casting CFB at high enough prep can result in over two hours worth of zombie awesomeness - and many of the other DO heavy spells like PHP have had their duration pushed upwards of 60+ roisaen from what I've seen -
Nobody has said as much, but the extended spell durations are somewhat self-explanatory. Still like to see some more deliberate changes to the way DO drains, but increasing duration is a good start at making the DO hit for casting certain spells more acceptable, IMO.
- Kart / Rhoat
MYTHORLOGICAL
Re: DO
12/02/2012 02:19 PM CST
>It just occurs to me that YES it is somewhat accounted for - durations for DO causing spells has been SIGNIFICANTLY increased...
That works for keeping DO down on an as-needed basis, but that doesn't account for training. Unless the DO-free timer is also significantly increased, or the amount of DO given per spell is significantly decreased, training with DO causing spells every day will still make a HL necromancer unplayable.
Markat says, "Pleasant people without moral faults, going to church every week and abstaining from sins such as vanity and zombies. Feh...."
That works for keeping DO down on an as-needed basis, but that doesn't account for training. Unless the DO-free timer is also significantly increased, or the amount of DO given per spell is significantly decreased, training with DO causing spells every day will still make a HL necromancer unplayable.
Markat says, "Pleasant people without moral faults, going to church every week and abstaining from sins such as vanity and zombies. Feh...."
JASON42
Re: DO
12/02/2012 02:46 PM CST
Good point - though I don't think design is approached so much from a 'trainability' as a 'useability' perspective... raising experience gain for high mana casts may be the carrot we are thrown in that regard?
- Kart / Rhoat
- Kart / Rhoat
CRAVYD
Re: DO
12/02/2012 02:47 PM CST
>>training with DO causing spells every day *could possibly* make a HL necromancer unplayable
Fixed that for you E. We still don't know how it will affect gameplay.
The reason I posted was to see if we could get some HL necro's to test it, as mine isn't that high. I was actually very wary of making this post, for I knew the fears that could come from this discussion.One thing I didn't want to promote was the DO-conservative attitude that persists in 2.0. It's horrible, and DO definitely should have to be managed, not avoided.
DO accrual definitely warrants testing, but will probably require a GM to manually set that characters DO at a very high level, unless there's a HL necro currently in that predicament that wants to test it. Without GM input (or an effective way to measure outrage), though, we're utterly at a loss as to how to even perceive DO accrual. The best we could possibly do is measure it against ROC, but with no guarantee of how much DO that ROC can mask at maximum cast or how many DO levels there are beyond said max. On the other hand, the DO drain rate may actually be enough to offset accrual, given a certain period of time.
Fixed that for you E. We still don't know how it will affect gameplay.
The reason I posted was to see if we could get some HL necro's to test it, as mine isn't that high. I was actually very wary of making this post, for I knew the fears that could come from this discussion.One thing I didn't want to promote was the DO-conservative attitude that persists in 2.0. It's horrible, and DO definitely should have to be managed, not avoided.
DO accrual definitely warrants testing, but will probably require a GM to manually set that characters DO at a very high level, unless there's a HL necro currently in that predicament that wants to test it. Without GM input (or an effective way to measure outrage), though, we're utterly at a loss as to how to even perceive DO accrual. The best we could possibly do is measure it against ROC, but with no guarantee of how much DO that ROC can mask at maximum cast or how many DO levels there are beyond said max. On the other hand, the DO drain rate may actually be enough to offset accrual, given a certain period of time.
JASON42
Re: DO
12/02/2012 02:59 PM CST
Maybe a GM will shed some light on the subject - or possibly code something up as a means to check one's level of DO, if for nothing else, testing purposes...
- Kart / Rhoat
- Kart / Rhoat
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: DO
12/02/2012 03:12 PM CST
Wasn't some way to measure DO planned anyways? Seems prudent to release that now.
MYTHORLOGICAL
Re: DO
12/02/2012 03:42 PM CST
Don't "fix" my posts.
>The reason I posted was to see if we could get some HL necro's to test it
I'm not sure if I want to spend that amount of time trying to build my DO up. A GM response on this issue would be nice, and if a GM is willing to work with me in test, I'll be the guinea pig. But again, since I have no way to gauge how fast DO accrues and drains on my own, I'm not going to invest the considerable amount of time it will take to max it in test without some help.
Besides, it really seems like the sort of thing that can be forecast with math.
>Wasn't some way to measure DO planned anyways? Seems prudent to release that now.
Yeah, that would be nice.
Markat says, "Pleasant people without moral faults, going to church every week and abstaining from sins such as vanity and zombies. Feh...."
>The reason I posted was to see if we could get some HL necro's to test it
I'm not sure if I want to spend that amount of time trying to build my DO up. A GM response on this issue would be nice, and if a GM is willing to work with me in test, I'll be the guinea pig. But again, since I have no way to gauge how fast DO accrues and drains on my own, I'm not going to invest the considerable amount of time it will take to max it in test without some help.
Besides, it really seems like the sort of thing that can be forecast with math.
>Wasn't some way to measure DO planned anyways? Seems prudent to release that now.
Yeah, that would be nice.
Markat says, "Pleasant people without moral faults, going to church every week and abstaining from sins such as vanity and zombies. Feh...."
TEVESHSZAT
Re: DO
12/02/2012 03:53 PM CST
Are people having trouble locking spells without access to the two DO-causing books? Someone before said they can only lock magics with esoteric, but I'm surprised they can't even use advanced.
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
JASON42
Re: DO
12/02/2012 04:03 PM CST
>> I have no way to gauge how fast DO accrues and drains on my own
Cast PHP non stop 24/7 for about a week - when your prep turns back to default you have less than 24 hours before Divine Smiting.
Once you hit this threshold you will never be less than 24 hours from divine smiting unless you stop using spells & abilities that cause DO. At that point it drains back down to below default prep threshold in approximately 3-5 days, if I remember correctly.
Tested when I was around 100th circle using PHP to train magic in combat 24/7 in TF.
- Kart / Rhoat
Cast PHP non stop 24/7 for about a week - when your prep turns back to default you have less than 24 hours before Divine Smiting.
Once you hit this threshold you will never be less than 24 hours from divine smiting unless you stop using spells & abilities that cause DO. At that point it drains back down to below default prep threshold in approximately 3-5 days, if I remember correctly.
Tested when I was around 100th circle using PHP to train magic in combat 24/7 in TF.
- Kart / Rhoat
MYTHORLOGICAL
Re: DO
12/02/2012 04:18 PM CST
Yeah I've had a DO death before. I know how to get one and how they come about. That isn't the same thing as knowing how fast DO accrues and drains. I'm talking about per spell, how much DO accrues, and how long that singular amount takes to drain. That's what we need to know in the context of this conversation, which is about whether casting DO spells repeatedly over the long term to train magic will make a HL necro unplayable.
Also, are our TM spells getting DO now? Because that's a whole other nightmare.
Markat says, "Pleasant people without moral faults, going to church every week and abstaining from sins such as vanity and zombies. Feh...."
Also, are our TM spells getting DO now? Because that's a whole other nightmare.
Markat says, "Pleasant people without moral faults, going to church every week and abstaining from sins such as vanity and zombies. Feh...."
JASON42
Re: DO
12/02/2012 04:30 PM CST
>>Also, are our TM spells getting DO now? Because that's a whole other nightmare.
TEVESHZAT mentioned DO being added back to BLB - don't know if he has tested this or what, but supposedly it was added back to the places where it was supposed to be in the first place, yes.
- Kart / Rhoat
TEVESHZAT mentioned DO being added back to BLB - don't know if he has tested this or what, but supposedly it was added back to the places where it was supposed to be in the first place, yes.
- Kart / Rhoat
TEVESHSZAT
Re: DO
12/02/2012 06:59 PM CST
>>TEVESHZAT mentioned DO being added back to BLB - don't know if he has tested this or what, but supposedly it was added back to the places where it was supposed to be in the first place, yes.
When AC was having spells it reflected act as if the war mage literally cast it, a War Mage in Plat got enough DO that NPC Empaths started freaking out when he went to get healed. Not the most scientific method, but you know.
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
When AC was having spells it reflected act as if the war mage literally cast it, a War Mage in Plat got enough DO that NPC Empaths started freaking out when he went to get healed. Not the most scientific method, but you know.
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
