I noticed that the kills are going to take much longer to get... that's going to make it hard to make money at the current rate of the economy... any plans to increase drop value / rate?

Yeah, we're very intentionally not increasing income from kills - It's absolutely ridiculous how much people are earning in 2.0, and slowing down combat is one way we're dealing with that. It wasn't the main reason we decided to slow down combat, but it's an important effect.

--

"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.

Those with lots of plat currently are already sweeping current auctions every time. So how does this really affect anything.

>>sweeping the next several auctions and those who just came back are SOL

Yeah, it's true, but the other option was to let it run rampantly out of control forever, which we didn't really like either. By the time a returning player's built up a good nest egg, chances are really good that those auctions will have happened already anyhow, so those huge earners will have spent their wad of cash.

>>how will xp gain compare?

Experience is something that we've spent a lot of time balancing, and from what people have reported, exp gain in combat is very reasonable. Keeping the experience rates compelling was the most important thing in my book - If you can't level up, you're reduced to hoarding money to maybe buy things later, which is a lot less fun.

--

"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.

>>great... those with lots of plat currently will be sweeping the next several auctions and those who just came back are SOL.

This is not a reason to recognize a problem within the game's economy.

It's also bizarre to believe that you'd be on par with those people if only drop rates went up. That would only work if drop rates were raised and those already wealthy people didn't also take advantage of those rates. It's just not something I believe is likely to take place.

What is most likely to happen is that, with a reduced amount of money going into the system, the amount that top end auction items go for may be reduced, but they'll still go to the same general people who were earning the top amounts of coins to begin with.

Total money may end up reduced, but it's not like wealth disparity will shift any.

>>also, how will xp gain compare?

EXP gain is fine.

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The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).

>>Has xp for skills that require dead critters (Skinning, Thanatology, Box Popping) gone up?

I wouldn't include box popping on that list (other than perception), since disarm and lockpicking are combining.

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TG, TG, GL, et al.

"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh

>>The only aspect of this that I'm remotely worried about is locksmithing, in 2.0 a top tier locksmith can hold their own against a top tier skinner for income, but in 3.0 where kills are taking 4 to 5 times as long, every single one of those kills is money for a skinner, but only about 20% (the rough box drop rate I've worked out over the last 5 years) would be a gain for a locksmith.

I don't think this is a problem. Imagine that in DR2, 100 kills takes you 5 hours (let's say). Of those 100 kills, you get a skin worth 500 copper each, for a total of 5 plat. At a 20% box rate, you're getting 20 boxes, and the assumption is in DR2 a locksmith and a skinner can hold their own, meaning those 20 boxes are worth 5 plat in total as well, or 2500 copper per box.

Imagine that in DR3, 5 hours only gets you 50 kills. This only nets you 50 skins, which is 500 copper * 50 or 2.5 plat. You also get a 20% box drop rate, which is 10 boxes. Each box was previously worth 2500 per box (and box worths haven't changed in 3.0), so that's 2.5 plat still.

--

"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.

To reiterate, then:

Has experience for skills that require dead critters (Skinning, Thanatology) gone up?

With Thanatology getting grandfathered to a higher level and becoming a primary skill, its going to be much harder to train no matter what happens.

>>Has experience for skills that require dead critters (Skinning, Thanatology) gone up?

There was a thread about Skinning experience, but I'm not sure that it went anywhere. I never thought about Thanatology, but that is a great point. I think both of them need to be considered.

GENT

I anticipate increasing the experience earned by skinning/thanatology a bit to compensate for the slower kill rates.

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

Yes, but the skinner didn't have to leave combat for 30 minutes to open the boxes while only training one skill. Instead the skinner spent 5-10 seconds and remained in combat. The opportunity cost of opening boxes is much greater, not to mention the risks involved. Would be nice if the reward from boxes could be adjusted to reflect this.

>>It would be cool if boxes someday used the same formulas/mechanics as damage in combat, though.

Yeah, I would like to get a lot more systems onto the combat core as far as damage goes, because it makes it so things are consistent.

In general, though, even in 2.0 boxes weren't strictly worse than hunting. They had a niche, and the fact that they were dangerous is a good thing. We won't be upping the danger of boxes right now, but if/when we engage with the combat damage mechanics we'll likely see some revisions.

--

"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.

> The rewards are adjusted. Critters that drop 5-10 silver via coins/gems tend to give 10-25 silver via coins/gems in boxes

If you're saying that you can make more plats per hour hunting a box dropping critter (and opening the boxes) than a skinnable critter that are at the same level, then I have to disagree. Add to that the opportunity cost of leaving combat to open boxes and only learning one skill instead of the 15-20ish you can train in combat, boxes are WAY behind skinning. Even without the risks of dying in 3.0, I still think the payout of boxes needs a dramatic increase to be worthwhile.

>This. This is what I don't like about our current skill training arrangement.

I agree with you here. However since you usually have to choose between box dropping critters and skinnable critters at the higher end, why do you think anyone would choose locksmithing over skinning? If you make the rewards from boxes more substantial, you've motivated people to get out of combat in a meaningful way, which seems to be your goal.

What are the chance of locksmithing taking from the crafting model, with 3-7 steps taking a 3-10 seconds (reduced time and steps with skill vs difficulty) with a significant portion of the random element removed and trap components and locks becoming useful pieces of the treasure?

Identify (box)
Disarm (box) with (tool)
Disarm (box) with (tool)
Disarm (box) with (tool)
Harvest (box) with (tool) [optional]
Harvest (box) with (tool) [optional]
Harvest (box) with (tool) [optional]
(Store item)
Analyze (box)
Pick (box) with (lockpick)
Turn/Push/Pull (lockpick)
Turn/Push/Pull (lockpick)
Turn/Push/Pull (lockpick)
Pull (box)
(Store (metal) lock, placeable on a container, saleable, or useful for meltdown/dismantling)
Open (box)
(Get treasure)

Of course you need a skillcheck included as well, so a minimum skill is required for dificulty of box. Lockpicks (and other tools) should degrade like crafting tool.

--Wryhk

1st grade tl;dr version:

Numbers didn't change. Words changed. Words don't matter. Numbers all that matters.

--GRIM45

This could be a mjor source for tinkering components.

--Wryhk

1st grade tl;dr version:

Numbers didn't change. Words changed. Words don't matter. Numbers all that matters.

--GRIM45

>That said, I wouldn't be against boxes having a bonus to incidental drops or something.

This would be a great way to make boxes more worthwhile. Increase the rate at which scrolls and treasure maps appear in boxes.

It would be really refreshing if you could make out of combat exp gains more significant. With the idea of hubs, it be nice if taverns and other central RP areas if certain guilds could maybe listen to two classes (maybe with a 25% exp penalty to each). Basically some way to make out of combat training a bit more efficient without making it a amazing tool to go AFK script in a private room with a partner.

>>You could take this even further and say that skins are a crafting material like mined metal, and as such the proper way to convert them to money is to use them in a workorder.

My understanding is that commodities 3.0 is actually going to handle the buying/selling of materials, so this wouldn't necessarily be the case then.

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The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).

>>This. This is what I don't like about our current skill training arrangement.

I would like to see more incentives for being out of combat. I feel there are many issues that make training out of combat less appealing:

1. Roundtimes are significantly higher for OoC training. 10-60 seconds to read a compendium page, 30 seconds to study art, 10-30 seconds for crafting, 10-30 seconds for foraging.
2. Skills like Stealing, Climbing, and Swimming chain you to certain areas. I have to sit in a mine to learn Climbing or Swimming. It takes around 60 seconds to get there and back to town, not counting the time it takes to train.
3. Many out of combat activities only train a single skill. Stealing for instance, I have to spend 15 minutes running around an entire province, and only learn one skill. I then have to wait an hour to do it again.

When I'm in combat, I can learn over 10 skills with zero roundtime. 15-20 with roundtime, none of which are over 5 seconds. You get the picture. Additionally, for NMU's, there is almost no reason to leave combat, because you really have no other skills to train.

I think with some tweaking, it is possible to make being out of combat just as appealing with regards to skill training:

1. Bar more activities in combat, not just while at melee. If there are critters in the room, you shouldn't be able to forage or collect.
2. Decrease roundtimes for activities out of combat. There is no reason I should have to sit through 30 seconds of roundtime to learn one skill. It is simply not fun.
3. Create more training opportunities that are nearer to socializing spots. I shouldn't have to sit in a mine shaft by myself to learn Climbing. Again, it really isn't fun.
4. Make activities teach more skills, where reasonable. Stealing should train Stealth just as well. Right now I have to be in combat to learn Stealth, Scouting, and Perception. There is no reason for me to leave.

I think there are many opportunities to make out of combat activities more appealing and to incentivize socializing. I think we need to start by loosening restrictions and increasing rewards for being out of combat, and then tighten up on combat activities.

I know these changes (to combat learning) won't be popular, but I think there are just too many incentives to staying in combat 24/7. I think it will be better for the community as a whole to change this.

GENT