A discussion was sparked up in the thief folder, i'm going to carry it on here.
> Actually it's pretty exclusive to Light Thrown weapons as a whole, as my great impact tyrium bola wasn't doing any appreciable damage more than each of the throwing blades :P
Posting this in the combat folder to see if a GM will address the situation again. I did say something before but I don't think it was ever addressed, and at the time people were saying that thrown was OP, some saying it was not. The skinny of the situation is that I've been seeing that LT has been very weak and even against persons of much lesser skill its almost impossible to kill them with it. So I got leilond into test and we tested him tossing his bola, along with throwing blades at me. He has 300 or so more LT than I have evasion with much better stats. Also my shield is about 150 ranks less then my evasion, and is a small arm worn targe. The results are pretty much what I seen before, he tossed both at me which resulted in me barely getting scratched up. Multiple stacks of throwing blades yielded mostly grazing hits with barrier spells up. The problem here being from what I can see barrier spells negating a good chunk of the already small amount of damage they do.
The other thing about thrown is its so hard to hit somebody compared to other weapons. Melee weapons bridge large gaps in skill, 200 rank differences I've seen in some cases, while thrown used against persons with defenses around thrown skill are pretty easily blocked.
Maybe leilond can add some more to what I've been saying here.
SHADOWCHIEF3
DR-KODIUS
Re: Thrown weapons
01/13/2013 06:39 PM CST
Are you guys using forged thrown weapons or storebought? Many storebought profiles are just dismal...
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
SHADOWCHIEF3
Re: Thrown weapons
01/13/2013 06:45 PM CST
> Are you guys using forged thrown weapons or storebought? Many storebought profiles are just dismal...
Regular old throwing blades, but the bola he used was a great impact tyrium bola. I'd be interested in trying out a nice tyrium light throwing axe, but alas, I don't have one.
Regular old throwing blades, but the bola he used was a great impact tyrium bola. I'd be interested in trying out a nice tyrium light throwing axe, but alas, I don't have one.
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Thrown weapons
01/13/2013 07:47 PM CST
>>great impact tyrium bola.
going to go out on a limb here and assume he meant heavy impact tyrium bola. :)
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
going to go out on a limb here and assume he meant heavy impact tyrium bola. :)
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
SHADOWCHIEF3
Re: Thrown weapons
01/13/2013 08:07 PM CST
Yeah I thought bola's capped at heavy myself, that's just what leilond posted in the thief thread. I thought maybe he got some badass tyrium bola from somewhere, although, it might not be far from it.
DR-KODIUS
Re: Thrown weapons
01/13/2013 10:47 PM CST
Some testing....
Defender - 50 in all stats, 400 in all skills. Tier 4 mid-steel chain armor and medium shield. 100 evasion, 80 shield stance. DODGE defensive maneuver.
Attacker - 50 in all stats, 500 in LT. Tier 4 steel bola.
Chance to hit was >80% per throw. Damage was 3-6% of the defender's health.
Swapped to a Tier 4 broadsword...
Chance to hit was the same. Damage was 5-10% of the defender's health.
Important - Please keep in mind the damage has a large min/max, as the combination of stats, weapon type, maneuver used, and so on affect the min and max damages differently. This makes it hard to compare using just a small handful of targets if a weapon is doing better or not.
Assuming no balance changes, disablers or buffs...
A broadsword this would mean 10 to 20 hits.
A light thrown bola this would mean 20 to 34 hits.
The light thrown has a RT of 1-2, and about a second to pick stuff up... so 2.5 seconds on average. The broadsword has a RT of 4. So, it should be doing about 60% more damage - plus a bit because heavier weapons have a boost, and that seems to line up appropriately.
Now with a capped damage shield up the bola does 2-5% damage. Definately less, but still enough to eventually kill a player.
With plate instead of chain it was doing about 1-4%.
Remember that PvP is intended to take longer. A bola has all of 1-2 second of round time for throwing. This rapid attack comes at a price. When an enemy has strong armor and damage shields up, you'll likely need something harder hitting to get through and do more damage.
Throwing blades do appear to have some issues due to their low damage stats because of armor. This is why they are best used against lightly armored foes. I'll see if some tweaking can help.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Defender - 50 in all stats, 400 in all skills. Tier 4 mid-steel chain armor and medium shield. 100 evasion, 80 shield stance. DODGE defensive maneuver.
Attacker - 50 in all stats, 500 in LT. Tier 4 steel bola.
Chance to hit was >80% per throw. Damage was 3-6% of the defender's health.
Swapped to a Tier 4 broadsword...
Chance to hit was the same. Damage was 5-10% of the defender's health.
Important - Please keep in mind the damage has a large min/max, as the combination of stats, weapon type, maneuver used, and so on affect the min and max damages differently. This makes it hard to compare using just a small handful of targets if a weapon is doing better or not.
Assuming no balance changes, disablers or buffs...
A broadsword this would mean 10 to 20 hits.
A light thrown bola this would mean 20 to 34 hits.
The light thrown has a RT of 1-2, and about a second to pick stuff up... so 2.5 seconds on average. The broadsword has a RT of 4. So, it should be doing about 60% more damage - plus a bit because heavier weapons have a boost, and that seems to line up appropriately.
Now with a capped damage shield up the bola does 2-5% damage. Definately less, but still enough to eventually kill a player.
With plate instead of chain it was doing about 1-4%.
Remember that PvP is intended to take longer. A bola has all of 1-2 second of round time for throwing. This rapid attack comes at a price. When an enemy has strong armor and damage shields up, you'll likely need something harder hitting to get through and do more damage.
Throwing blades do appear to have some issues due to their low damage stats because of armor. This is why they are best used against lightly armored foes. I'll see if some tweaking can help.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
DR-KODIUS
Re: Thrown weapons
01/13/2013 11:11 PM CST
It appears things aren't half-bad if you remove damage barriers from the equation. I think we're going to increase the randomization on how much they block lower damaging weapons. This will allow attacks from smaller weapons to often pierce the barrier and still inflict some damage.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
BEVERAGEK
Re: Thrown weapons
01/13/2013 11:17 PM CST
>>This will allow attacks from smaller weapons to often pierce the barrier and still inflict some damage.
Yeah, I was just thinking that, despite the ability to target specific body parts with a gross skill imbalance, it really does nothing to mitigate the damage reduction if that body part is heavily armored.
I'd actually be really cool if feats could help alleviate some of that once 3.0 is done and out :)
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
Yeah, I was just thinking that, despite the ability to target specific body parts with a gross skill imbalance, it really does nothing to mitigate the damage reduction if that body part is heavily armored.
I'd actually be really cool if feats could help alleviate some of that once 3.0 is done and out :)
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
MOCKERJB
Re: Thrown weapons
01/13/2013 11:19 PM CST
Will you do this for TM too? I tested with the same OP after the original post and TM has the same showing as LT blades (via TKT at 50 mana and 100, and pd at 50 mana and 100). Without the barrier, it looks right, with the barrier, it matches the LT blade results.
VEE-REX
Re: Thrown weapons
01/14/2013 02:02 AM CST
I'll confirm this with my testing.
It seems like just about every single guild has a physical damage barrier (except for Thieves/Traders?). Any magic guild can cast MAF. It took more than a dozen throws from me and Gort at the same time to take down Sepharus. I had Wildfire, Eagle, and Bear form up. I have almost 300 more ranks in offenses, Gort easily has 500 more ranks.
LT feels noticably weak, and I really do think the fact that virtually everyone has access to a physical damage barrier is part of the issue.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
It seems like just about every single guild has a physical damage barrier (except for Thieves/Traders?). Any magic guild can cast MAF. It took more than a dozen throws from me and Gort at the same time to take down Sepharus. I had Wildfire, Eagle, and Bear form up. I have almost 300 more ranks in offenses, Gort easily has 500 more ranks.
LT feels noticably weak, and I really do think the fact that virtually everyone has access to a physical damage barrier is part of the issue.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
SHADOWCHIEF3
Re: Thrown weapons
01/14/2013 03:00 AM CST
While I do think its kind of badass taking multiple stacks from 2 175-200th circle barbs I think that just shows that something is very wrong with Light thrown in particular right now and would just like things to be balanced to how they could be useful while not being to overpowered.
ZUBBA
Re: Thrown weapons
01/14/2013 05:09 AM CST
I think part of the problem is people tend to focus on the total number of actions required for a kill, when in reality they should be focusing on the total time it takes to kill. From what I've seen of LT Plat side, while it does take a greater number of actions to kill relative to other weapons, it actually kills at a faster rate than most.
REWYN
Re: Thrown weapons
01/14/2013 09:10 AM CST
Having tons more ranks than someones defenses no longer means that much. Once you cap the offense bonus, you have capped it, so the idea of saying "i have 500 more ranks" really is null and void now. The balance is more focused on 1) what weapon em I using? 2) can i hit them consistently? 3) have i maxed my offense bonus to damage.
From what I see from the posted numbers, LT does very favorably to a melee in terms of its raw damage, and it gets mitigated pretty heavily against heavy armor. I fail to see a logical issue with that. It has tiny RT and is ranged and deals very good 'DPR' (its being compared vs Heavy Edged in this example after all).
If someone wants to pierce heavy defenses, then I believe a heavier damage type is going to be more ideal (something with less damage per round time but higher damage per command).
>>I think part of the problem is people tend to focus on the total number of actions required for a kill, when in reality they should be focusing on the total time it takes to kill. From what I've seen of LT Plat side, while it does take a greater number of actions to kill relative to other weapons, it actually kills at a faster rate than most.
Basically this, and to add, I feel in 3.0 you cant just rely on any one of your weapons to be a god weapon because you feel you outclass something anymore. Things feel much more rock-paper-scissor like. Quick/Fast attacks seem ideal to rip apart low mitigation targets, heavy/slow attacks seem better against heavy mitigation targets. I presume as we go into 3.0 more we will also see more powers that effect enemy mitigation, which will allow people some more control over what option they would like to employ.
From what I see from the posted numbers, LT does very favorably to a melee in terms of its raw damage, and it gets mitigated pretty heavily against heavy armor. I fail to see a logical issue with that. It has tiny RT and is ranged and deals very good 'DPR' (its being compared vs Heavy Edged in this example after all).
If someone wants to pierce heavy defenses, then I believe a heavier damage type is going to be more ideal (something with less damage per round time but higher damage per command).
>>I think part of the problem is people tend to focus on the total number of actions required for a kill, when in reality they should be focusing on the total time it takes to kill. From what I've seen of LT Plat side, while it does take a greater number of actions to kill relative to other weapons, it actually kills at a faster rate than most.
Basically this, and to add, I feel in 3.0 you cant just rely on any one of your weapons to be a god weapon because you feel you outclass something anymore. Things feel much more rock-paper-scissor like. Quick/Fast attacks seem ideal to rip apart low mitigation targets, heavy/slow attacks seem better against heavy mitigation targets. I presume as we go into 3.0 more we will also see more powers that effect enemy mitigation, which will allow people some more control over what option they would like to employ.
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Thrown weapons
01/14/2013 10:33 AM CST
>>I'll confirm this with my testing.
It seems like just about every single guild has a physical damage barrier (except for Thieves/Traders?). Any magic guild can cast MAF. It took more than a dozen throws from me and Gort at the same time to take down Sepharus. I had Wildfire, Eagle, and Bear form up. I have almost 300 more ranks in offenses, Gort easily has 500 more ranks.
LT feels noticably weak, and I really do think the fact that virtually everyone has access to a physical damage barrier is part of the issue.
It would be neat to duplicate this test with either a bola, horseshoe or lightthrowing axes. See if it makes a difference and confirm/deny Kodius' theory of the blades damage being too low.
Possible solution, make throwing blades forgeable that have a little better damage?
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
It seems like just about every single guild has a physical damage barrier (except for Thieves/Traders?). Any magic guild can cast MAF. It took more than a dozen throws from me and Gort at the same time to take down Sepharus. I had Wildfire, Eagle, and Bear form up. I have almost 300 more ranks in offenses, Gort easily has 500 more ranks.
LT feels noticably weak, and I really do think the fact that virtually everyone has access to a physical damage barrier is part of the issue.
It would be neat to duplicate this test with either a bola, horseshoe or lightthrowing axes. See if it makes a difference and confirm/deny Kodius' theory of the blades damage being too low.
Possible solution, make throwing blades forgeable that have a little better damage?
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
VEE-REX
Re: Thrown weapons
01/14/2013 12:06 PM CST
>>Having tons more ranks than someones defenses no longer means that much. Once you cap the offense bonus, you have capped it, so the idea of saying "i have 500 more ranks" really is null and void now.
Not really. If something is unbalanced, then it should be fixed, even if that means adjusting the damage cap on a particular weapon.
>>From what I see from the posted numbers, LT does very favorably to a melee in terms of its raw damage, and it gets mitigated pretty heavily against heavy armor. I fail to see a logical issue with that. It has tiny RT and is ranged and deals very good 'DPR' (its being compared vs Heavy Edged in this example after all).
There is no logical issue in it being weaker than others. The issue is when it's weakened to the point of being near useless. I won't say it's at that point, but with the amount of stacking barrier abilities along with normal buffs you'll notice it getting close to it against other players.
If you want to compare it to other weapons, compare it to other ranged weapons.
I've used LT for nearly 10 years, and I can say without a doubt that it's low damage against heavier armors is extremely noticable in 2.0. I don't think it's unreasonable for a GM to look into this situation especially when multiple experienced players are bringing it up.
>>It would be neat to duplicate this test with either a bola, horseshoe or lightthrowing axes. See if it makes a difference and confirm/deny Kodius' theory of the blades damage being too low.
In the test I mentioned Gort was using a haralun bola and I was using the steel thrwoing axes.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
Not really. If something is unbalanced, then it should be fixed, even if that means adjusting the damage cap on a particular weapon.
>>From what I see from the posted numbers, LT does very favorably to a melee in terms of its raw damage, and it gets mitigated pretty heavily against heavy armor. I fail to see a logical issue with that. It has tiny RT and is ranged and deals very good 'DPR' (its being compared vs Heavy Edged in this example after all).
There is no logical issue in it being weaker than others. The issue is when it's weakened to the point of being near useless. I won't say it's at that point, but with the amount of stacking barrier abilities along with normal buffs you'll notice it getting close to it against other players.
If you want to compare it to other weapons, compare it to other ranged weapons.
I've used LT for nearly 10 years, and I can say without a doubt that it's low damage against heavier armors is extremely noticable in 2.0. I don't think it's unreasonable for a GM to look into this situation especially when multiple experienced players are bringing it up.
>>It would be neat to duplicate this test with either a bola, horseshoe or lightthrowing axes. See if it makes a difference and confirm/deny Kodius' theory of the blades damage being too low.
In the test I mentioned Gort was using a haralun bola and I was using the steel thrwoing axes.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
VEE-REX
Re: Thrown/Small Weapons
01/14/2013 12:18 PM CST
Oh! Let me add that it seems to be an issue with smaller weapons in general, not just thrown weapons. I tested with the throwing blades and throwing axes against Sepharus. Gort tested his kertig sabre against me and Leilond.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Thrown weapons
01/14/2013 12:55 PM CST
>>In the test I mentioned Gort was using a haralun bola and I was using the steel thrwoing axes.
Oh oops, must of glazed over that - apologies, carry on.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
Oh oops, must of glazed over that - apologies, carry on.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
USAF-SPARKY
Re: Thrown weapons
01/14/2013 12:56 PM CST
I don't know how other barrier spells work, but MAF will only work against 6 hits for me at my max. That barrier drops FAST with multi-strike attacks. FS, Stampede, and throwing blades are three quick ways to drop that spell. Are other barrier spells set up the same way? I see throwing blades as a mundane way to drop spells that can only block X amount of hits. Not as a main damage dealer.
DR-KODIUS
Re: Thrown weapons
01/14/2013 01:04 PM CST
>>While I do think its kind of badass taking multiple stacks from 2 175-200th circle barbs I think that just shows that something is very wrong with Light thrown in particular right now and would just like things to be balanced to how they could be useful while not being to overpowered.
Nothing is wrong with LT per my extensive testing. We may need to adjust damage barriers. Throwing blade stacks are not going to do 5x the damage of a normal blade. They will be weaker and are kind of niche weapons for those times when the enemy does not have much armor on them.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Nothing is wrong with LT per my extensive testing. We may need to adjust damage barriers. Throwing blade stacks are not going to do 5x the damage of a normal blade. They will be weaker and are kind of niche weapons for those times when the enemy does not have much armor on them.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
VEE-REX
Re: Thrown weapons
01/14/2013 01:10 PM CST
I'll post a log when I get home today. Gort has 260 more ranks in his small blades than my defenses, and with my Tenacity barrier up he could not damage me at all. It was difficult for him to hit me but after a lot of hits, I still had no physical damage. He could've kept attacking forever and it would've made no difference. IIRC he also had up offensive buffs in in Dragon and Bear form. Also, his stats outclass mine. Also, I use leather armor, not HP or anything high on absorption.
Just saying.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
Just saying.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
DR-KODIUS
Re: Thrown weapons
01/14/2013 01:14 PM CST
>>I'll post a log when I get home today. Gort has 260 more ranks in his small blades than my defenses, and with my Tenacity barrier up he could not damage me at all
Yes, saying the same thing I just said :P I'll likely have to tone down the flat damage absorption part of these abilities.
Alternatively, I may increase the RT on LT and HT by one second, and increase the damage they deal by 50% and 33% or so.... that may just be eaiser. I had no problem getting past Tenacity with a steel dao.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Yes, saying the same thing I just said :P I'll likely have to tone down the flat damage absorption part of these abilities.
Alternatively, I may increase the RT on LT and HT by one second, and increase the damage they deal by 50% and 33% or so.... that may just be eaiser. I had no problem getting past Tenacity with a steel dao.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
ILLIENA
Re: Thrown weapons
01/14/2013 01:30 PM CST
> Throwing blade stacks are not going to do 5x the damage of a normal blade.
Why not? They have over 5x the RT. I can spam "throw axe\n invoke bond" and get 5 attacks in 5 seconds with a throwing axe. The throwing blades, by contrast, are doing 5 attacks in 6 seconds. I don't think there should be a damage penalty just because they collapse it into a single command.
Why not? They have over 5x the RT. I can spam "throw axe\n invoke bond" and get 5 attacks in 5 seconds with a throwing axe. The throwing blades, by contrast, are doing 5 attacks in 6 seconds. I don't think there should be a damage penalty just because they collapse it into a single command.
REWYN
Re: Thrown weapons
01/15/2013 02:12 AM CST
All the damage occurs at once. If they were as efficient rt for rt as other weapons in the same class, then those weapons would be obsolete. Throwing blades trade efficiency for lots of damage in the front end, over multiple strikes. I also doubt with general system lag you could get 5 thrown attacks off in 5 seconds. The act of picking up your weapon after ever attack even with a script/trigger causes a bit of system delay on the side of the servers.
REWYN
Re: Thrown weapons
01/15/2013 02:16 AM CST
>>Yes, saying the same thing I just said :P I'll likely have to tone down the flat damage absorption part of these abilities.
As a question, do mitigators have such a reaction with other abilities in the game other than multi strikes? If not, I'm not sure reducing mitigation to account for a small set of abilities would make as much sense to me. Would it not make sense to let multi strike spells some effect against mitigation powers? Like the first attack is mitigated fully but every attack there after in the barrage is less and less effected? That or spread that reduction out across all attacks if that easier.
I kind of like where balance is right now in 3.0, seems odd to change a major aspect of it to account for throwing blades.
As a question, do mitigators have such a reaction with other abilities in the game other than multi strikes? If not, I'm not sure reducing mitigation to account for a small set of abilities would make as much sense to me. Would it not make sense to let multi strike spells some effect against mitigation powers? Like the first attack is mitigated fully but every attack there after in the barrage is less and less effected? That or spread that reduction out across all attacks if that easier.
I kind of like where balance is right now in 3.0, seems odd to change a major aspect of it to account for throwing blades.
