I don't know about anyone else, but I'd be absolutely willing to pay an 2 or even 3 spell slots if it did +armor rank and -maneuvering hinderance. We don't need additional absorb, we don't need the stealth, but we really need the hindering change.

Pleeeease?


--

In memory of Lisa/Martee. Passed 6/17/2013. A friend. A sister.

Raesh, understand this isn't a tit-for-tat thing,

I was under the impression that the problem was that it also increased the protection the armor provided. Maybe the bonus was too high before, but isn't there some room for flexibility here?

Ah you know, Kodius said he's going to completely review all armor for 3.2, but as a magic dev guy I want you to be aware how uncomfortable it is as an armor tert when it comes to limited armor choices. I can't even really think of anything heavier than mail or I get smashed. Please advocate for us on this.


--

In memory of Lisa/Martee. Passed 6/17/2013. A friend. A sister.

<<What do you want me to advocate here? Kodius is far more up on the state of combat than I am (It's not even remotely close) and if an armor tert can wear plate mail without any trade offs what's the downside? Why wouldn't you? And that's exactly the problem YS caused.

You make a valid point. I really wish my plate hadn't become ceremonial though. :(



--

In memory of Lisa/Martee. Passed 6/17/2013. A friend. A sister.

>>To play devils advocate a bit...if an armor tert cannot wear the most protective armor because it decreases their survivability, why can it even be equipped if it is basically always the wrong decision?

The same reason you can use weapons you aren't skilled with, attack someone with a teddy bear, or pick up a cursed item?

DR lets you do lots of things that aren't optimal and I don't think anyone would argue it shouldn't.

>>I still think this is an issue of 'the hindrance system is not very interesting' though. If the trade off for wearing plate was increased RTs and say, fatigue costs in exchange for the added protection, thats better than 'increased protection and absorb, but reduces functional evasion ranks to near zero, letting more of an attack through and completely negating extra protection. Also you can't retreat'.

And that's a valid stance and, I believe, one of the things Kodius is looking to resolve. But, again, that's a conversation to have with him and not me.

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

>>As it stands though, I can have equal or higher ranks in plate than chain, as armor tert, and die from equipping plate. I can't think of another system that works this way.

IMO the problem is that many players rely heavily on evasion (this is understandable). Unless you don't train evasion as much as possible, the damage reduction you get from partially dodging a blow rarely loses to the damage reduction you get from your armor trying to absorb that hit.

I do think heavy plate armor can work fine for non-armor primes, but it just requires a lot more effort than the ease of using chain or even brig. It's like how I could have an easier life as a survival prime using light armor instead of chain armor (and my character is armor tert, even!). I sometimes have to wait a bit longer before going to the next tier of stuff to train stealth in. The only difference is that I'm trading stealth functionality which really won't make or break my survivability in most cases, instead of evasion, which is a much easier pill to swallow.

I think a lot of this will get resolved if/once armor starts being able to function (or at least be perceived) as an alternative to evasion, instead of a backup measure after evasion, parry, and shield fail.

That said, I can see heavy plate's bigger advantage being rebuffing the lucky dents and dings that weaker mobs throw your way, vs trying to absorb larger at-level blows. How much help that is for people hunting at-level, I don't know.

---

Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

Tying retreat into hindrance (and critter difficulty in relation to you) is a whole other issue. It essentially means that you can abuse retreat all day when you don't necessarily have to, but barely use it in its functionally intended manner when it's actually necessary.

I know flee works, too, but still.

---

Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

Honestly I can't think of an instance where flee saved my life.

If I was in danger of instant death and couldn't retreat, I usually got stunned and wounded and/or just flat dead before flee's 200 second timer kicked me out.

>I do think heavy plate armor can work fine for non-armor primes, but it just requires a lot more effort than the ease of using chain or even brig. It's like how I could have an easier life as a survival prime using light armor instead of chain armor (and my character is armor tert, even!). I sometimes have to wait a bit longer before going to the next tier of stuff to train stealth in. The only difference is that I'm trading stealth functionality which really won't make or break my survivability in most cases, instead of evasion, which is a much easier pill to swallow.

Have you tried using full plate as a non armor prime in celps or above? As an armor tert I notice being hit more just moving from cloth to plate greaves. As a non armor prime using full plate could be doable in low level situations, but once you start climbing higher and the penalties from hindrance become more rank loss it doesn't become a feasible armor.

>As a necro who generally hunts assassins and intercessors for evasion, I put on one of the damite full plates sets from gnome quest, and while i went from not needing my evasion/reflex buff to needing it. I was able to hunt just fine. Had to change my stance a bit more into shield than evasion. But it did work out okay. Is it ideal? No. Impossible? Also no.

Plate is feasible if you under hunt for sure but if you're hunting at level there's a big difference, certainly not a feasible solution I've ever experienced. Just to test I went from barely getting touched for 100+ attacks to getting hit regularly and accumulating wounds fast/losing vit fast with the switch and I've been in adults for a while now:

All of your armor:

some padded pants
a padded hood
a padded mask
some padded gloves
a padded shirt
a small diamond-hide shield sealed with protective wax
[Type INVENTORY HELP for more options]

* Moving poorly, an adult desert armadillo slashes fiercely at you. You evade, stepping aside in the nick of time.
[You're nimbly balanced and in good position.]
>
An adult desert armadillo rears up and spews forth a blast of stringy white webbing at you!
You manage to catch the worst of the blast upon your shield, with only a few slimy strands sliding across your body.
>
>
>
* Trying weakly, an adult desert armadillo lashes at you. You barely block with a small diamond-hide shield sealed with protective wax.
[You're nimbly balanced and in better position.]
>
* With weak timing, an adult desert armadillo swipes at you. You dodge, barely twisting out of harm's reach.
[You're nimbly balanced and in good position.]

X 100


Plate:


All of your armor:

some lumium heavy plate greaves
some lumium heavy plate gauntlets
a lumium great helm
some light lumium half plate
a small diamond-hide shield sealed with protective wax
[Type INVENTORY HELP for more options]

Your silver glow flares.
The air around you solidifies into an incandescent radiance, buckling and losing much of its mass under the force of the attack.
* Attacking gracefully, an adult desert armadillo swipes at you. You barely fail to block with small shield.
The barbed tail lands a light (2/23) hit to your left leg.
[You're bruised, nimbly balanced and in strong position.]
W> W>
W>
W>
W>
Your silver glow flares.
The air around you solidifies into an incandescent radiance, losing most of its mass under the force of the attack.
* Moving fluidly, an adult desert armadillo growls lowly and swings at you. You fail to dodge.
The sharp claws lands a harmless (0/23) blow to your abdomen.
[You're bruised, nimbly balanced and have slight advantage.]
W>
Your silver glow flares.
The air around you solidifies into an incandescent radiance, collapsing under the force of the attack in a silent cascade of glassy fragments that vanish before reaching the ground.
* Moving with powerful grace, an adult desert armadillo swipes at you. You barely fail to block with small shield.
The barbed tail lands a harmless (0/23) strike to your abdomen.
[You're nimbly balanced and in good position.]
W>
W>
W>
Your silver glow flares.
* Moving in gracefully, an adult desert armadillo growls lowly and swings at you. You barely fail to block with small shield.
The barbed tail lands a light (2/23) hit to your left arm.
[You're bruised, nimbly balanced and in strong position.]
W>
Your silver glow flares.
* With strength, an adult desert armadillo growls lowly and swings at you. You barely fail to block with small shield.
The barbed tail lands a light (2/23) hit to your chest.
[You're bruised, nimbly balanced and in strong position.]
W>
W>
You finally manage to free yourself from the webbing.

>
>
* An adult desert armadillo swipes at you. You barely block with a small diamond-hide shield sealed with protective wax.
[You're bruised, nimbly balanced and in strong position.]
>
Your silver glow flares.
* Timing it well, an adult desert armadillo growls lowly and swings at you. You fail to dodge.
The barbed tail lands a good (4/23) strike to your abdomen.
[You're bruised, nimbly balanced and in strong position.]
>
>
>
* With weak timing, an adult desert armadillo slashes fiercely at you. You barely block with a small diamond-hide shield sealed with protective wax.
[You're bruised, nimbly balanced and in better position.]
>
* An adult desert armadillo swipes at you. You dodge, just stepping out of harm's way.
[You're bruised, nimbly balanced and in strong position.]
>
Your silver glow flares.
* Attacking well, an adult desert armadillo swipes at you. You barely fail to block with small shield.
The barbed tail lands a good (4/23) strike to your left arm.
[You're bruised, nimbly balanced and in strong position.]
>
Your silver glow flares.
* Moving well, an adult desert armadillo growls lowly and swings at you. You barely fail to block with small shield.
The barbed tail lands a light (2/23) hit to your chest.
[You're bruised, nimbly balanced and in strong position.]
>
>
>
* An adult desert armadillo lurches forward and slashes at you. You barely block with a small diamond-hide shield sealed with protective wax.
[You're bruised, nimbly balanced and have slight advantage.]
>
>
>
* Moving weakly, an adult desert armadillo slashes fiercely at you. You barely block with a small diamond-hide shield sealed with protective wax.
[You're bruised, nimbly balanced and have slight advantage.]
>
Your silver glow flares.
* Moving with grace, an adult desert armadillo lurches forward and slashes at you. You attempt to evade.
The sharp claws lands a light (2/23) hit to your left leg.
[You're bruised, nimbly balanced and in good position.]
>
>
>
Your silver glow flares.
* Moving strongly, an adult desert armadillo growls lowly and swings at you. You barely fail to block with small shield.
The sharp claws lands a good (4/23) strike to your right arm.
[You're bruised, nimbly balanced with opponent in good position.]
>
>
* An adult desert armadillo lurches forward and slashes at you. You barely block with a small diamond-hide shield sealed with protective wax.
[You're bruised, nimbly balanced with opponent in better position.]
>
* An adult desert armadillo swipes at you. You barely block with a small diamond-hide shield sealed with protective wax.
[You're bruised, nimbly balanced and in good position.]
>
Your silver glow flares.
* Moving well, an adult desert armadillo growls lowly and swings at you. You fail to dodge.
The barbed tail lands a light (2/23) hit to your left arm.
[You're bruised, nimbly balanced and in strong position.]
>
You are now set to use your parry stance:

Attack : 100%
Evade : 87%
Parry : 100%
Block : 0%

Your silver glow flares.
* Fluidly, an adult desert armadillo growls lowly and swings at you. You badly fail to parry with a battle monk's parry stick branded with interlocking holy symbols.
The barbed tail lands a good (4/23) strike to your right arm.
[You're bruised, nimbly balanced and in good position.]
>
>
* An adult desert armadillo lashes at you. You knock aside little of the barbed tail with a battle monk's parry stick branded with interlocking holy symbols.
[You're nimbly balanced and in strong position.]
>
Your silver glow flares.
* Moving with powerful grace, an adult desert armadillo lurches forward and slashes at you. You badly fail to parry with a battle monk's parry stick branded with interlocking holy symbols.
The sharp claws lands a good (4/23) strike to your left leg.
[You're bruised, nimbly balanced with no advantage.]
>

>As far as I understand things, at-level is rather fluid depending on the circumstances. Changing into plate might change those circumstances.

Interesting, I always thought at level was something that was reflected in the appraisal of the creature. I was unaware that something "completely beneath your ability" would be considered at level just because I put plate on. One might assume, it wasn't at level, but rather beneath my ability.

>>Interesting, I always thought at level was something that was reflected in the appraisal of the creature.

It's a culmination of things. It also might not necessarily properly factor in more passive "debuffs" like hindrance. I know Kodius expanded what appraisal covers since 3.0 came out, but I don't think he really redid most of the formulas that generally guide the output.

In other words, it might be looking at your evasion (and its stance/bonuses/penalties), your shield (and its stance/bonuses/penalties), and your parry (and its stance/bonuses/penalties), and spitting out a score, but it's possible it does not factor in your armor skill and/or hindrances with your three defenses in the context of using that armor.

It's similar to how I can appraise a critter as easy to hide on, because of my stealth ranks, yet if I try to hide on it while wearing full plate armor I might be too heavily penalized by the armor to actually hide. That's because the appraisal comparison scores aren't taking hindrances into account.

---

Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

maybe for me it has to do with I am evasion primary? So i have about 250 more ranks of evasion then i do shield. But I was able to learn both evasion and shield while hunting in a plate body with chain helm/gloves. I only have 500 ranks of plate 800 chain.

I did have to use my evasion/reflex buff AND my stamina damage barrier with casting 30 mana MAF spells from time to time. But when I let manifest force fade, I noticed i would be hit sometimes with a light hit. But nothing that would cause my character death.

-Zerreck Arkarm

Wouldn't it also change which types of critters you would want to hunt? I'd imagine lots of small love-taps being ideal for plate wearers who can absorb them without actual damage, vs. large slow hits being easier to dodge/block/etc. for other chars?