From what I've heard our magic is pretty closely modeled based on what was done for Barbarians. I got a bit curious and since there's not been any official word on our requirements yet, i decided to compare us to Barbarians again.

I used the official Barbarian requirements posted on their forum:

http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/The%20Barbarians/Game%20Master%20and%20Offical%20Announcements/view/195

i.e

	0	10	30	70	100	150
Inner Magic	1	2	2	3	3	8
Primary Supernatural	1	1	2	2	3	8
Secondary Supernatural	0	0	2	2	3	8

Based on my current circling needs i was able to deduct 2nd supernatural requirement for my circle by asking a guild leader. Compared to Barbarians i came short by ~6 circles, which makes about 48 ranks. This got me thinking - are we getting tougher magic requirements than Barbarians? It feels a bit weird since we're both magic tertiaries but it would make some sense if we're ahead in some other category. I was also wondering if this was in any way reflected in our grandfathering since it is entirely based on Barbarians, right?

As far as I know, thieves are to have the exact same Barbarian grandfathering, and I assume from that that the requirements are to be the same.

Otherwise it would be a bit of a stupid idea to grandfather lower than required rates.

I used 'I guess' and 'I assume' because I knew if I didn't, someone would want a post reference. I just went through elanthipedia for a half hour and wasn't able to find the post detailing EXACTLY how barbarian grandfathering worked.

What I did find were several posts which detailed how magic grandfathering worked, in that you (obviously) got IF/PM granted to at-circle if you needed it, then you were granted 90% to Aug/Ward/Uti/Deb, then 80%, 70%, 60%.

Barbs, as near as I can tell, require 1 rank of IF per circle 1-10, 2 ranks 11-100.

So in theory you should be able to calculate your expected magic ranks by circle and IM.

If my math is right (and it may not be, I'm doing this while chatting with people), a 55th thief should have (10+ (55-10)*2) = 100 ranks of IF. Then he should get 90 ranks in something, 80 ranks in something, and 70 ranks in the last one, since we don't get warding. Percentages may not be right, but the base IF calc should be.

Seems about correct for my thief, last time I logged in.

I'd REALLY like to see a GM comment. I think Ricinus or Socharis made a post about it, but I can't find it in the oh-so-wonderful forums, or on elanthipedia. I'd strongly urge people not to read too much into the current rates in test, since the copy mechanism seems...not very healthy? Lots of people reported odd, bizarre, ranks in the 3.0 conversion, but I think there was some mechanic to deal with that.

My second and third super are equal to each other. At 51st I'm getting:

Showing Magic skills that you have skill in.

SKILL: Rank/Percent towards next rank/Amount learning/Mindstate Fraction
Inner Magic: 141 00% clear (0/34) Arcana: 42 20% clear (0/34)
Targeted Magic: 11 67% clear (0/34) Augmentation: 71 00% clear (0/34)
Debilitation: 115 00% clear (0/34) Utility: 71 00% clear (0/34)

That was with switching debil and augment because it seemed like it'd be better for at level hunting since I can do util and augment anywhere.

so at 121 circle. (I also switched debilitation and utility.)

Inner Magic: 430 00% dabbling (1/34) Attunement: 56 60% clear (0/34)
Arcana: 389 30% clear (0/34) Targeted Magic: 227 23% clear (0/34)
Augmentation: 220 00% perusing (2/34) Debilitation: 353 00% clear (0/34)
Utility: 47 03% clear (0/34) Warding: 224 00% clear (0/34)
Sorcery: 31 65% clear (0/34)

Apparently thieves can switch warding with other magics even through we have no way of learning it. nor get it grandfathered.

>exp switch
To switch two skills, you must specify the two skills to switch using the syntax EXP SWITCH {SKILL1} {SKILL2}. You can currently switch Augmentation, Debilitation, Utility, and Warding.

Yamcer

---

"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF

>So yeah if someone can make sense of all that, great.

Oh and I didn't mention 3rd super, because I have no idea what its based on. But there's weird numbers happening there too, but I don't really have a good way to gauge it.

The funny part is it doesn't even matter if my circle calculator is off, because as long as I'm using the same metric to measure everyone, and different people are getting different grandfathering results, its still proof something wonky is afoot.

Using your math:

My First copy:
IM = 155%
1st = 143%
2nd = 113%

My Second copy (one circle higher):
IM = 155%
1st = 135%
2nd = 121%

Yam:
IM = 153%
1st = 151%
2nd = 110%

Sslad:
IM = 153%
1st = 159%
2nd = 169%

But I don't those numbers are exactly "right" either, because by your math, I wouldn't need more 2nd super to circle for at least a few circles, yet if I talk to a GL in test, they say I need to work my 2nd super.

<< different people are getting different grandfathering results, its still proof something wonky is afoot.

Wanted to add also that grandfathering doesn't necessarily have to be based solely on circle. For example there could be some other skills involved in the calculations and people have different skill levels. Of course it would still be nice to get some kind of a confirmation on this.

>Wanted to add also that grandfathering doesn't necessarily have to be based solely on circle.

I thought it was posted by the staff pre-3.0 that it was based solely on circle.

>How did you come up with those figures for your reqs?

It's a plugin for genie3, I actually suspected something was off with it because unfortunately barbarian circle calculations are something of a mystery.

There's the post that you linked, the wiki, the genie3 calculators, and the olwydd calculator and requirements... all of them spit out different numbers.

I downloaded an updated calculator for genie3, but that one isn't working exactly right either.

>Ended up with 825 IF at 170th.

Well that at least seems to match up with the 155% thing, doing hand math on the posted barb circle req.

>From 168/169/170 prior to the Prime release of 3.0, I received 12.5/10/10/6 in grandfathered magics for all of those levels.

So if the req is 8/8/8/? then you got 155%/125%/125%/?. Right? I think I'm done with math for a while, my head hurts.

>>So has anyone tracked down a GM in the test instance and gotten information on grandfathering rates?

Anyone seen a Thief circle requirement list post 3.1? I dont recall seeing it anywhere. I mean if there was a list that said from circle 1 to 50 Supernatural X requires 2 per circle Supernatural z requries 3 per circle etc? That would help too provided these skills will have a "hard" circle requirement.