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What SvS contest does eliminate use? Are there different levels of win for the SvS?
EMBODIEDCHAOS
MOCKERJB
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/26/2013 03:39 PM CST
<<So does Eliminate. There's an SvS contest that can be won or lost.>>
Fair enough, though I generally tend to think skill-checks scale better than stat checks. I'd be very happy if my dazzle or MB success could be followed with nullified shield/armor on an opponent for a couple attacks. It would certainly be better than a stun or sleep effect (or even nerve damage for that matter).
Raikage, you around tonight? Let's play with it some. Shoot me an IM. Or Loggrim too, if you're around.
Fair enough, though I generally tend to think skill-checks scale better than stat checks. I'd be very happy if my dazzle or MB success could be followed with nullified shield/armor on an opponent for a couple attacks. It would certainly be better than a stun or sleep effect (or even nerve damage for that matter).
Raikage, you around tonight? Let's play with it some. Shoot me an IM. Or Loggrim too, if you're around.
EMBODIEDCHAOS
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/26/2013 04:20 PM CST
> You're not forced to use shield. You just need to know you're not going to defend optimally against missile weapons. And, because you're not going to be able to defend against them optimally, people conclude that they're forced to use shields.
Would you mind logging into test for a few minutes, pureblade?
Would you mind logging into test for a few minutes, pureblade?
DEFOL
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/26/2013 05:55 PM CST
<< Backstab always has had an excuse for ignoring shield and getting a damage multiplier because it's tough to pull off (and it has a skill-check on the front-side anyway).
I haven't done any PVP testing but has anyone considered the possibility of simply retreating from Eliminate during its duration? It's only 9 seconds so there wouldn't be much fallback from the retreat penalty either. To use it effectively you would first have to pull off a 10 second stun. I know this might not apply to PVP but as far as my attempt at stun goes, i couldn't get more than 1 second on my level critter. Add up all those stat checks and it gets pretty tough to pull off. At least on paper.
<< Fair enough, though I generally tend to think skill-checks scale better than stat checks.
How about something as simple as Armor ranks - Backstabbing ranks?
I haven't done any PVP testing but has anyone considered the possibility of simply retreating from Eliminate during its duration? It's only 9 seconds so there wouldn't be much fallback from the retreat penalty either. To use it effectively you would first have to pull off a 10 second stun. I know this might not apply to PVP but as far as my attempt at stun goes, i couldn't get more than 1 second on my level critter. Add up all those stat checks and it gets pretty tough to pull off. At least on paper.
<< Fair enough, though I generally tend to think skill-checks scale better than stat checks.
How about something as simple as Armor ranks - Backstabbing ranks?
MOCKERJB
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/26/2013 09:00 PM CST
So Raikage and I (Traim) tested eliminate some and the results went like this:
The method of testing was standing at melee and he would do 10 jabs with a kythe. We would stop counting vit damage when he got the message that eliminate wore off. I was wearing nightmare black leathers and a lumium small shield arm-worn--one of two typical PvP set-ups I generally use (the other being LC with better protection/absorb).
Without eliminate, but with other offensive buffs on his side (and no defensive buffs on mine), his 10 jabs generally resulted in no damage (one scratch in there leading to 99% vit for me).
With eliminate, his jabs dropped me down to 41% vitality, 56% vitality, and 43% vitality, on different tests. On the 43% vitality run, he threw in a couple draws instead of jabs. Draw takes a bit longer, but hits a bit harder. These results were consistent when I put up Seer's and COL.
When he used backstab with eliminate up, it was pretty indistinguishable from regular backstab and hit in the range of 17-24% vitality damage.
When I put up MAF, eliminate got a lot worse. All but the last three jabs were basically completely nullified. I ended with 73% vit.
My general feeling on the ability is that I think it does too much damage too quickly, but it can be minimized a good amount with a barrier and some decent tactics (i.e., don't just stand there). Looking at it from the thief's side of things, if I had a horse in the race still, I would much prefer a single strike ability that did 33-40% vit damage by bypassing shield, armor, and magic barriers over a timed 10 second ability that did not bypass magic barriers but was capable of doing +60% vit damage in that amount of time. Regardless, the downtime for the ability seems too short at the Raikage level of things. He could definitely use it against me several times in a fight and given its power, that's a death sentence.
As a general matter, I have some thoughts regarding DFA that I'm posting in the combat folder. For the reasons I stated earlier in the thread, I think we're running into serious problems with these abilities in the new system because core combat has been balanced to really rely on two defenses and armor, and DFA (be it maneuver cleave, burn, or eliminate etc) has too much unbalancing potential without a cap on the "penalty" (100% currently) to the second defense.
The method of testing was standing at melee and he would do 10 jabs with a kythe. We would stop counting vit damage when he got the message that eliminate wore off. I was wearing nightmare black leathers and a lumium small shield arm-worn--one of two typical PvP set-ups I generally use (the other being LC with better protection/absorb).
Without eliminate, but with other offensive buffs on his side (and no defensive buffs on mine), his 10 jabs generally resulted in no damage (one scratch in there leading to 99% vit for me).
With eliminate, his jabs dropped me down to 41% vitality, 56% vitality, and 43% vitality, on different tests. On the 43% vitality run, he threw in a couple draws instead of jabs. Draw takes a bit longer, but hits a bit harder. These results were consistent when I put up Seer's and COL.
When he used backstab with eliminate up, it was pretty indistinguishable from regular backstab and hit in the range of 17-24% vitality damage.
When I put up MAF, eliminate got a lot worse. All but the last three jabs were basically completely nullified. I ended with 73% vit.
My general feeling on the ability is that I think it does too much damage too quickly, but it can be minimized a good amount with a barrier and some decent tactics (i.e., don't just stand there). Looking at it from the thief's side of things, if I had a horse in the race still, I would much prefer a single strike ability that did 33-40% vit damage by bypassing shield, armor, and magic barriers over a timed 10 second ability that did not bypass magic barriers but was capable of doing +60% vit damage in that amount of time. Regardless, the downtime for the ability seems too short at the Raikage level of things. He could definitely use it against me several times in a fight and given its power, that's a death sentence.
As a general matter, I have some thoughts regarding DFA that I'm posting in the combat folder. For the reasons I stated earlier in the thread, I think we're running into serious problems with these abilities in the new system because core combat has been balanced to really rely on two defenses and armor, and DFA (be it maneuver cleave, burn, or eliminate etc) has too much unbalancing potential without a cap on the "penalty" (100% currently) to the second defense.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/26/2013 10:27 PM CST
>>Would you mind logging into test for a few minutes, pureblade?
You are a very big boy!
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
You are a very big boy!
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
EMBODIEDCHAOS
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/26/2013 10:44 PM CST
Yeah, the current theory for eliminate still splits things straight down the middle. Eliminate is mediocre at best against barriers, and dominating against everyone else. My proposal for eliminate would be pretty straight forward, one or two really big attacks.
There are 2 areas that need to be covered for eliminate to be balanced at all levels, and not have barriers completely negate it, and a third that could help. Barriers need to be bypassed, and the damage modifier should be fixed (small edged damage modifier just won't work). If both of these areas were covered, the armor reduction could be used as a tertiary effect to balance and hone the effectiveness of eliminate.
1. Bypass all barrier effects
2. use a static damage modifier set at high power (small edged with the umph of a great sword.. for one swing) Having the damage modifier be static would let eliminate open up to all weapon types including ranged, without making it obscenely overpowered with heavier weapons like gorteous' lance of doom. All weapons would just use the same damage multiplier when backed by eliminate, though it would be a high one. My tests of small edged types show that the lack of FoI is what destroys all small edged weapons almost single handedly, so im going to bet that overriding the held weapon with FoI similar to a greatsword for one strike would be PERFECT for balancing eliminate.
3. The armor negating effect of eliminate is cool, but using it as a primary means of potency for eliminate is too lopsided(lame against barriers, uber against everything else). I would say its best added as a portion of armor reduced, depending on level of success, if any at all. I have no interest in the shield negating effects of eliminate.
I think the duration of eliminate needs to be addressed as well, since it is required to have RT. Precision is all about timing, not activating and then rushing in like a maniac to try and swing before it ends, thats just absurd. I think eliminate should last just as long as other khris if you don't attack, but expire the minute you deal that one or two precision eliminate strikes. (though i still lobby for instant eliminate with 2 seconds to make the strike)
If any advice is considered here, it is that 1 and 2 are IMPORTANT to balance eliminate, 3 is optional.
There are 2 areas that need to be covered for eliminate to be balanced at all levels, and not have barriers completely negate it, and a third that could help. Barriers need to be bypassed, and the damage modifier should be fixed (small edged damage modifier just won't work). If both of these areas were covered, the armor reduction could be used as a tertiary effect to balance and hone the effectiveness of eliminate.
1. Bypass all barrier effects
2. use a static damage modifier set at high power (small edged with the umph of a great sword.. for one swing) Having the damage modifier be static would let eliminate open up to all weapon types including ranged, without making it obscenely overpowered with heavier weapons like gorteous' lance of doom. All weapons would just use the same damage multiplier when backed by eliminate, though it would be a high one. My tests of small edged types show that the lack of FoI is what destroys all small edged weapons almost single handedly, so im going to bet that overriding the held weapon with FoI similar to a greatsword for one strike would be PERFECT for balancing eliminate.
3. The armor negating effect of eliminate is cool, but using it as a primary means of potency for eliminate is too lopsided(lame against barriers, uber against everything else). I would say its best added as a portion of armor reduced, depending on level of success, if any at all. I have no interest in the shield negating effects of eliminate.
I think the duration of eliminate needs to be addressed as well, since it is required to have RT. Precision is all about timing, not activating and then rushing in like a maniac to try and swing before it ends, thats just absurd. I think eliminate should last just as long as other khris if you don't attack, but expire the minute you deal that one or two precision eliminate strikes. (though i still lobby for instant eliminate with 2 seconds to make the strike)
If any advice is considered here, it is that 1 and 2 are IMPORTANT to balance eliminate, 3 is optional.
MOCKERJB
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/27/2013 06:53 AM CST
I forgot to note the "skill-check" portion of things. Test version Traim has 100 in all stats except strength (90). Raikage didn't "fail" eliminate once, and I imagine his stats are about equivalent or lower. I'm not sure what that says about the stat contest other than it seems to be about the same as all stat contests--which is to say that we seem to pass them 100% of the time at-level in PvP.
I put up psy shield and that had no effect (wasn't even triggered), so the contest isn't vs Will, or it bypasses magic barriers, or psychic shield's interaction with eliminate is just buggy.
I put up psy shield and that had no effect (wasn't even triggered), so the contest isn't vs Will, or it bypasses magic barriers, or psychic shield's interaction with eliminate is just buggy.
DR-RICINUS
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/27/2013 03:22 PM CST
Eliminate has had some changes.
It now caps to 2 hits max, has some additional messaging to the thief when it is being applied, has a longer duration to get those hits in, and has a longer cooldown.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
It now caps to 2 hits max, has some additional messaging to the thief when it is being applied, has a longer duration to get those hits in, and has a longer cooldown.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
EMBODIEDCHAOS
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/27/2013 05:55 PM CST
> It now caps to 2 hits max, has some additional messaging to the thief when it is being applied, has a longer duration to get those hits in, and has a longer cooldown.
Eliminate won't be much help unless it ignores barriers. Even used to power backstab, there is no difference at all in the attacks on a barrier. The duration is acceptable, but only with a little tweaking. The concentration hit for eliminate should be applied to the strikes, rather than the activation of the khri, and if you still have both strikes unused when it expires the internal cooldown of eliminate should reset or shortened a lot.
I also took a look at guile, it has promise now, but still warns people you are around/engaging them from stealth. I vote guile be different while stealthed, targeted at what you are facing, applying right before you attack or ambush(effecting the initial attack). Out of stealth it can work how its setup already. The sense of surprise is KEY to thief potency, otherwise people can just link the guile debuff message to search triggers to find me when im close. That is something i will not risk for the benefit of a minor evasion debuff, when i can just use different khri that helps equally as much.
You slip out of concealment and backstab Gorteous!
< Driving in with naturally fluid movements, you thrust a kythe at Gorteous. Gorteous fails to dodge, not quite escaping the blast.
The kythe lands a solid (5/23) hit to Gorteous's back.
[You're winded, nimbly balanced with no advantage.]
[Roundtime 2 sec.]
You slip out of concealment and backstab Gorteous!
< Moving like a striking snake, you thrust a kythe at Gorteous. Gorteous attempts to evade, avoiding only some of the blow.
The kythe lands a good (4/23) strike to Gorteous's right arm.
[You're winded, adeptly balanced and in strong position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
You slip out of concealment and backstab Gorteous!
< Moving like a striking snake, you thrust a kythe at Gorteous. Gorteous attempts to evade, avoiding only some of the blow.
The kythe lands a good (4/23) strike to Gorteous's back.
[You're winded, incredibly balanced and in dominating position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
You slip out of concealment and backstab Gorteous!
You manage to position your strike at Gorteous's weakest spot.
< Driving in like an unbeatable force, you thrust a kythe at Gorteous. Gorteous fails to evade, twisting partially away from much of the blow.
The kythe lands a good (4/23) strike to Gorteous's head.
[You're winded, incredibly balanced and in very strong position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
You slip out of concealment and backstab Gorteous!
You manage to position your strike at Gorteous's weakest spot.
Your concentration fails, as you lose focus on your target.
< Driving in like the irresistable force of a cyclone, you thrust a kythe at Gorteous. Gorteous fails to evade, twisting partially away from much of the blow.
The kythe lands a light (2/23) hit to Gorteous's back.
[You're winded, incredibly balanced and in dominating position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
Eliminate won't be much help unless it ignores barriers. Even used to power backstab, there is no difference at all in the attacks on a barrier. The duration is acceptable, but only with a little tweaking. The concentration hit for eliminate should be applied to the strikes, rather than the activation of the khri, and if you still have both strikes unused when it expires the internal cooldown of eliminate should reset or shortened a lot.
I also took a look at guile, it has promise now, but still warns people you are around/engaging them from stealth. I vote guile be different while stealthed, targeted at what you are facing, applying right before you attack or ambush(effecting the initial attack). Out of stealth it can work how its setup already. The sense of surprise is KEY to thief potency, otherwise people can just link the guile debuff message to search triggers to find me when im close. That is something i will not risk for the benefit of a minor evasion debuff, when i can just use different khri that helps equally as much.
You slip out of concealment and backstab Gorteous!
< Driving in with naturally fluid movements, you thrust a kythe at Gorteous. Gorteous fails to dodge, not quite escaping the blast.
The kythe lands a solid (5/23) hit to Gorteous's back.
[You're winded, nimbly balanced with no advantage.]
[Roundtime 2 sec.]
You slip out of concealment and backstab Gorteous!
< Moving like a striking snake, you thrust a kythe at Gorteous. Gorteous attempts to evade, avoiding only some of the blow.
The kythe lands a good (4/23) strike to Gorteous's right arm.
[You're winded, adeptly balanced and in strong position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
You slip out of concealment and backstab Gorteous!
< Moving like a striking snake, you thrust a kythe at Gorteous. Gorteous attempts to evade, avoiding only some of the blow.
The kythe lands a good (4/23) strike to Gorteous's back.
[You're winded, incredibly balanced and in dominating position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
You slip out of concealment and backstab Gorteous!
You manage to position your strike at Gorteous's weakest spot.
< Driving in like an unbeatable force, you thrust a kythe at Gorteous. Gorteous fails to evade, twisting partially away from much of the blow.
The kythe lands a good (4/23) strike to Gorteous's head.
[You're winded, incredibly balanced and in very strong position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
You slip out of concealment and backstab Gorteous!
You manage to position your strike at Gorteous's weakest spot.
Your concentration fails, as you lose focus on your target.
< Driving in like the irresistable force of a cyclone, you thrust a kythe at Gorteous. Gorteous fails to evade, twisting partially away from much of the blow.
The kythe lands a light (2/23) hit to Gorteous's back.
[You're winded, incredibly balanced and in dominating position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
DR-KODIUS
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/27/2013 06:24 PM CST
>>Eliminate won't be much help unless it ignores barriers.
I am not sure any of our intended changes were ever made to barriers. When time allows I need to dig into that code again. A barrier shouldn't be capable of negating special attacks.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
I am not sure any of our intended changes were ever made to barriers. When time allows I need to dig into that code again. A barrier shouldn't be capable of negating special attacks.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
LHALLFIN
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/28/2013 04:24 PM CST
>Eliminate has had some changes.
>It now caps to 2 hits max, has some additional messaging to the thief when it is being applied, has a longer duration to get those hits in, and has a longer cooldown.
Not that my feedback really means anything but I really don't like the cooldown.
Anyway to leave the cooldown as it is right now for PvP but bring it back down for PvE?
As it stands right now with the most recent changes, I'll never ever use eliminate except in PvP, which is effectively never if you compare time spent in PvE to time spent in PvP.
OLSONM6
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/28/2013 04:28 PM CST
>As it stands right now with the most recent changes, I'll never ever use eliminate except in PvP, which is effectively never if you compare time spent in PvE to time spent in PvP.
It has been stated that some abilities are intended more for PvP and some more for PvE. I would guess this is a PvP ability.
It has been stated that some abilities are intended more for PvP and some more for PvE. I would guess this is a PvP ability.
LHALLFIN
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/28/2013 06:21 PM CST
>It has been stated that some abilities are intended more for PvP and some more for PvE. I would guess this is a PvP ability.
That's fine really, but as a weapons secondary guild, with almost no weapon strengths (besides backstab) I, personally, don't think that's a very good idea.
Again it's fine if that's the staff is going for, but if it is, I don't like it.
Like I said, I realize my feedback is worth next to nothing, but I'm also not going to let that stop the staff from hearing it.
:D
MAGIC1300
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/31/2013 08:24 PM CST
Amazing how people complain and get something nerfed that is completely negated by wards, has a long CD, and can be defeated by retreating. Another poster said that it doesn't even enhance backstab, could it at least be fixed for that?
MOCKERJB
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/31/2013 08:30 PM CST
For my small part, I think bypassing wards has to be a must-have for a limited strike ability that's limited to small edged. Unless, of course, they have plans for wards that change the status quo. Thieves, without a third party dispel option of any kind, and designed with ambush first in mind, have to have a way to hit hard first without spending time in the open wearing down a ward.
EMBODIEDCHAOS
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/31/2013 09:54 PM CST
> For my small part, I think bypassing wards has to be a must-have for a limited strike ability that's limited to small edged. Unless, of course, they have plans for wards that change the status quo. Thieves, without a third party dispel option of any kind, and designed with ambush first in mind, have to have a way to hit hard first without spending time in the open wearing down a ward.
The biggest problem here is barriers, heavier armors, and the vitality wall. The way they all synergize provides a level of protection unintended for any version of DR. I have heard there is intent to rewrite barriers and heavier armors, i hope it happens. This is one of the 3 biggest problems that plague us, followed by lopsided stealth, and a third one that should go away with the auto-defending update.
Barriers/armor, stealth, and auto-defending rewrites will be a huge advancement towards resolving many issues that have plagued us since 3.0 went live last year. My hope is that barriers/heavy armors will be cut off at the knees, so that they are a necessity and option to use, rather than a requirement. Stealth will probably need a complete overhaul because it has been so badly lopsided, but i hear rumors a stealth rewrite may not even be on the table yet.
The biggest problem here is barriers, heavier armors, and the vitality wall. The way they all synergize provides a level of protection unintended for any version of DR. I have heard there is intent to rewrite barriers and heavier armors, i hope it happens. This is one of the 3 biggest problems that plague us, followed by lopsided stealth, and a third one that should go away with the auto-defending update.
Barriers/armor, stealth, and auto-defending rewrites will be a huge advancement towards resolving many issues that have plagued us since 3.0 went live last year. My hope is that barriers/heavy armors will be cut off at the knees, so that they are a necessity and option to use, rather than a requirement. Stealth will probably need a complete overhaul because it has been so badly lopsided, but i hear rumors a stealth rewrite may not even be on the table yet.
