I added a new method to help with training supernatural skills for thieves:

Meditate Khri - A way to dedicate you time and energy specifically to expanding the khri you currently have up. This will give you RT, and will greatly or vastly increase the next learning pulse. Sitting/Kneeling/Laying down and how high your current concentration level is will determine whether it works, and to what degree. It does cost a little concentration to perform.

I've also upped the IM gains in general, cause there was some bad math making those numbers lower than I intended.

FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate

Very neat, looking forward to test this one out.

Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur

MEDITATE KHRI is now KHRI MEDITATE. It can now be done in hiding, and has some instruction for those getting used to khri.

FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate

Well I got the new skills to finally start moving.. thanks to a exp switch making debil 185 and putting augment to 115 but that doesnt seem to help utility much it still is just hanging out at 3/34 and with everything I have to do to get debil moving I am concentration tanked always around 15-20% left.

could you look into Utility xp gains maybe?

Deadly force, is the force which a person uses, causing—or that a person knows, or should know, would create a substantial risk of causing—death or serious bodily harm. Deadly Force is justified only under conditions of extreme necessity as a last resort,

Well, logged onto the test realm to try and give it a go.

Was pretty late so i didn't try much, had a pack full of boxes , so i decided i would try them. blew the first box,(quartz garg) have not blown a box in months, then tried more, had trouble finding traps, analyzing locks, harvesting all kinds of things i have not had issues with in a long time. I hope this is not indicative of the rest of it. I will try combats later today.

So after some testing i have identified where the real problem with backstab lies. It seems to work as expected on cloth and leather, but heavier armor like chain and plate prevent 99% of the damage. I feel the reason for this, is because true small edged weapons lack any good molds with the force factor and impact to bypass chain/plate/barriers. The end product leaves backstab strong against cloth/leather, and non-existant against chain/plate. I really think us thieves need to rally behind this to get it fixed.

These are ideas i came up with for potential ways to fix backstab.

1. Release more weapon molds for small edged around the range desired for backstab (5 volume, high puncture and impact) Medium Edged weapons do not work well for backstab except for a few rare cases, using that is not viable.

2. Change the 30 stone limit on backstab, and redo the options on which weapon types you can stab with. If a blunt is under 30 stones and has high puncture, i don't see why you couldn't backstab with it.

3. Change the mechanics of backstab to make it more powerful overall, against chain/plate, and add a 20 second cooldown to prevent it being spammed. I like the thought of backstab being more of a utility ability you can use every so often, rather than a spammable goto button.

4. Modify backstab so that impact and force factor of the weapon play a smaller role in potency, this would make backstab viable against chain/plate, we well as allow the smaller weapon molds in small edged to have a use again.

A mix of bits and pieces from each of these does not sound like a bad idea, but i think the easiest way to fix this would be reduce the dire effect that force factor and impact have on backstab. The rest are things that should be changed because backstab is based on game mechanics from 15 years ago.

One of the new khri is specifically designed for this concern. Khri Eliminate completely takes armor (and shield) out of the picture for your next attack.


FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate

problem is that one attack is not enough to break through the 7 vitality buffs a cleric or paladin have up at any given time Give eliminate more than 1 attack give it a duration... maybe 2 minutes to match the rest of the debil short and sweet. Oh and this also....

A steel cinquedea is a heavy edged melee-ranged weapon.
A steel cinquedea trains the large edged skill.
The steel cinquedea is BADLY suited, but usable, for backstabbing.

You are certain that it could do:
heavy (9/26) puncture damage
somewhat moderate (6/26) slice damage
low (3/26) impact damage
no (0/26) fire damage
no (0/26) cold damage
no (0/26) electric damage

The cinquedea is dismally (2/17) designed for improving the force of your attacks.

You are certain that the cinquedea is reasonably (7/17) balanced and is fairly (5/17) suited to gaining extra attack power from your strength.

You are certain that the cinquedea is rather flimsy and easily damaged (4/18), and is in pristine condition (98-100%).

The cinquedea is made with metal.
You are certain that the cinquedea weighs exactly 30 stones.
You are certain that the cinquedea is worth exactly 3500 Lirums.
Roundtime: 8 seconds.

Deadly force, is the force which a person uses, causing—or that a person knows, or should know, would create a substantial risk of causing—death or serious bodily harm. Deadly Force is justified only under conditions of extreme necessity as a last resort,

>>Give eliminate more than 1 attack give it a duration... maybe 2 minutes

Not likely to happen. I don't mind writing abilities that when used can make a difference in a fight, but I'm not handing out 'I win' buttons.

FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate

"If you can backstab with non-SE weapons, there wont be a whole lot of reason to ever use them anymore. I think this will make most thieves switch weapons to heavier more damaging weapons."

That statement backs my point about small edged weapons lacking good molds, the weapon in general is very underwhelming, even with backstab. Thieves use it solely because its required for backstab. If a change like this would cause 100% of thieves to switch to heavier weapons, there is something wrong with the system.

HE backstab ... just let it happen... don't fight it 30 Stone limit still holds

Deadly force, is the force which a person uses, causing—or that a person knows, or should know, would create a substantial risk of causing—death or serious bodily harm. Deadly Force is justified only under conditions of extreme necessity as a last resort,

Eliminate will not win a fight unless it's used as a late-game strike. It's not a good opener, but it seems like you would be better served opening with slash, clout, choke, various debilitations, then stab them a few times, and once they are wounded open up eliminate.

An alternative to completely destroying weapon balance is to create a khri which bypasses the bit barrier mechanics. Use ambushes, then a khri slipstream or whatever, and finally an eliminate.

As I see it, thieves should be about slipping past barriers, not hitting people with yaks. A small nimble blade. Not a cinqueda.

>As I see it, thieves should be about slipping past barriers, not hitting people with yaks. A small nimble blade. Not a cinqueda.

Hah, yes.

Maybe an interesting addition would be one of those new combat Maneuvers that Kodius just built. They would make some interesting opening attacks, and since they have a cool down would be easier to balance unique modifiers, MANEUVER WAYLAY or something to the like.

Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur

watch is an easy fix......REMOVE IT!

Deadly force, is the force which a person uses, causing—or that a person knows, or should know, would create a substantial risk of causing—death or serious bodily harm. Deadly Force is justified only under conditions of extreme necessity as a last resort,

"Perhaps the problem could be countered with some armor-reduction debilitation ability. Ambush snaparmor or something that for a short time weakens the protection offered by the armor."

That is what eliminate does, but solving the problem for only 1 attack does not really remedy the entire situation.

>P.S. wtb 7 vitality buffs for my Cleric.

...you're not going to tell me clerics don't have 2 barriers, and multiple other buffs, even if they lack an actual vitality spell.

>That is what eliminate does, but solving the problem for only 1 attack does not really remedy the entire situation.

Not elimination; eliminate REMOVES the armor entirely from the equation, for 1 single shot. I was thinking an ambush or similar move which reduced the targets armor value, basically, for a set duration. Not destroys it or renders it null. Plus eliminate is thief-based, while an ambush would be target based. I'd imagine they wouldn't stack, because...if you reduce 0 you get...less of 0.

Im not looking for the "I win button" I'm looking for "can the skills I have trained for years finally work button".

Backstab requires stealth. 400+ stealth has a 0 chance against a survival tert guild if they have 100 perception and can learn to type the word "watch".

remove Watch and that will solve half the backstab problems in one stab. (pun intended)

the other half of the problem is the weapon restriction on backstab being SE, AND a 30 stone limit. You want to keep it SE fine but let us use any amount of stone and that may fix the horrible damage the templates allow us.

If not then might as well open the weapons up and keep the 30 stone limit.

Deadly force, is the force which a person uses, causing—or that a person knows, or should know, would create a substantial risk of causing—death or serious bodily harm. Deadly Force is justified only under conditions of extreme necessity as a last resort,

As a level 41 thief with combats a bit ahead of that...

I don't train backstab at all. It's not worth it. I still train SE for ambushes, but backstab is not worth it, and I'm better off using khri to turn me into a silently buffed dude with a weapon that fits my RP. Watch shuts me down if they have anything approaching reasonable perception, and finding hunting grounds that will teach my defenses, my tactics, that I can hit, and that I can backstab? Please.

It would make no difference to me if the backstab skill were removed from the game.

It would make me happy if it were improved so that it were useful - preferably in a way that's useful against players without having to break the code - or removed and replaced with something that is useful. A Trickery skill or something, that applies to a wide range of stuff.

"I don't train backstab at all. It's not worth it. I still train SE for ambushes, but backstab is not worth it, and I'm better off using khri to turn me into a silently buffed dude with a weapon that fits my RP. Watch shuts me down if they have anything approaching reasonable perception, and finding hunting grounds that will teach my defenses, my tactics, that I can hit, and that I can backstab? Please. "

Amen brother! Ricinus, i hope you are paying attention to this thread closely. The outrage and annoyance of thieves on a global scale is at an all time high.

>>Eliminate is being used as a band aid to try and cover up bigger problems.

It's also been mentioned that it isn't any good because you can't use it enough. It's like pie. You eat one delicious slice, then say, "May I have another?" And the waiter says, "No, other patrons have to have pie too." And then you flip the table over. Meanwhile, the rest of the cooks told me before making the pie, "That pie may be too good, people will be full even from one slice." And I said, "Ok, I'll keep an eye on anyone eating their pie to make sure that they don't explode."

>>Take your pick, lots of broken stuff no one will step up and fix.

One step at a time. First you build a nice crust. Then you work on the filling. It's like pie.

>>watch is an easy fix......REMOVE IT!

That's like deciding that baking powder isn't tasty, and therefore has no place being in pie. But see what happens if you try to make an apple pie without it. Sure some folks think it's sweet and delicious, but it ends up really messy.

>>Perhaps the problem could be countered with some armor-reduction debilitation ability.

Actually... you do know that setting things on fire has armor-reducing capabilities. It's like pie. A few minutes in the oven and it's all nice and crispy on the edges.

>>Ricinus, i hope you are paying attention to this thread closely.

I was distracted by all the pie references.

>>The outrage and annoyance of thieves on a global scale is at an all time high.

But has little to do with what I'm working on. It's like pie. Sure, there's other desserts out there, and I've presented you all with a nummy pie. Sure those other desserts deserve to be eaten as well, but right now I'm asking that we taste the pie in front of us and make sure there's a good balance of graham cracker crust to meringue, and not too much fresh whipped cream on top. We can look at the chocolate mousse later, even though that mousse may have been sitting out since January - it'll keep.

All kidding and pie references aside, we know there are other issues out there, and discussion is always appreciated and encouraged. That said, backstab hasn't undergone any specific changes with this particular push, and if there are some core combat problems causing them to behave differently that they have since 3.0 hit, they will probably get sorted out. Otherwise - yes - backstab does need some work on the whole, as does a number of guild skills/core skills. We're doing our best to add trainability and usability to a lot of new/existing skills. For Thieves right now that is IM, Aug, Util, and Debil - not Backstab.

FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate