So the hardest spells in the game seem to cap at "guru" level to "master the spell," which I read as meaning you can cap the spell at 1250 ranks (assuming no feats or buffs, obviously you can cap it sooner with feats/buffs). From my experience with introductory and basic spells which seem to be mastered at professional and genius levels, I don't learn anything from those spells even fully capped. Does this mean that esoteric spells, cast capped, at 1250 ranks will stop teaching, too?

That leads into my next point, the above stated comment combined with the devaluation of cyclics for training seems to me like manufactured demand for the research option - which itself seems like a system designed to reduce how much can be multi-tasked. Is it just me, or does research seem like a way of forcing spellcasters away from hunting grounds to train the skills separately? I say this since we'll have to cast hard spells, frequently, at capped mana to even learn, and even THAT will eventually drop off.

So it seems as though using symbiosis to forcibly increase the difficulty of spells is the only way to make learning magic possible. It lowers my ability to cast spells pretty significantly so that intro spells can still teach. Adds another required task to perform with each spell prep to make magic useful for learning. Sigh.

I think the GMs said the alternatives to symbiosis were making everything harder to cast and making up spells just for the sake of filling out difficulty tiers (as opposed to making spells because they're cool/unique/useful).

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

>>The only thing that's changed is I have to spend extra spell slots to cast the same spells at the same mana for the same effect.

I thought the chaos symbiosis doesn't require you to know GAF or invest in any feats. Might have misunderstood what the GMs released last night.

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

>symbiosis-without-knowing-how-to-symbiosisizeaifcate.

I think I need to start an Armifer Dictionary of Awesomeness soon.

Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur

<Actually I still have to cast the spells at capped mana. The only thing that's changed is I have to spend extra spell slots to cast the same spells at the same mana for the same effect. But less learning.>

It's additional work to perform the same task and costs a spell slot to do it. And if you use the chaos version, without the feat, then it's quite literally just more work for the sake of work and increased difficulty. There's not even a compelling RP reason for it the chaos version.

>>Algothi: You are introducing a difficult to control pattern into a spell for the sake of making that a pattern you have otherwise mastered challenging.

I think what Neckhoff is trying to say is that besides experience (or training if you want to put it more ICly), there is no tangible benefit to using the chaos symbiosis. It doesn't make the spell more powerful or add any effects to the spell.

If that is an overriding concern, I would consider spending the slot on the symbioses that have tangible effects. The chaos symbiosis is only meant as a learning Band-aid for high-level characters who don't have access to sufficiently difficult spells or don't want to spend extra spell slots on spells (or the symbiosis feats) just to be able to train.

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Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!

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<One verb, 0 RT. I cant really agree that qualifies as work.>

Plus preparing and casting GAF, researching the symbiosis, and the fact you have to prepare the symbiosis every single time you want to gain some exp.

<You are introducing a difficult to control pattern into a spell for the sake of making that a pattern you have otherwise mastered challenging.>

Yes, that is -A- reason RP-wise to use a chaos symbiosis, but that's not exactly compelling. If I was a master chef, I might try to make a dish using inferior cookware to challenge my awareness and control. Once.

>Yes, that is -A- reason RP-wise to use a chaos symbiosis, but that's not exactly compelling. If I was a master chef, I might try to make a dish using inferior cookware to challenge my awareness and control. Once.

But in DR, you'd blindfold yourself and use a nine foot long halberd every time.
Preferably while bleeding.

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>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.

>>For locksmithing, you have the option to open locks and disarm traps while blindfolded, just for the sake of giving yourself a harder challenge. I don't believe this is notably different than that.

Trivia: this was originally going to be the Blind symbiosis. I veto'd that for being sorcerous, but the intention that it's like the trap/lock system is definitely there.

-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas

I'd still prefer to see it done all in one line as a modifier to the spell. It feels mentally confusing for me to have to type two separate line. Locksmithing has the same quality of life functionality.

e.g.
prep <spell> <mana amount> symbiosis
or
prep <spell> <mana amount> train
or
prep <spell> <mana amount> hard


rather than:
prep <spell> <mana amount>
prep symbiosis


Nikpack