I wanted to post some notes on how to best optimize your magic experience when you engage with the magic system. I'll sticky this and add anything else that comes up in discussions.
All Magic Skills:
- Wait for a full prep. You get a bonus to experience for a full prep, and a penalty for snap-casting.
- Use more mana. The more mana you use, the more experience you get.
- Mastery Feats are your friend. They increase the amount of mana you can put into a spell but don't increase your raw skill, thereby letting you cast above your featless personal cap. You get more experience for more mana.
- Magic skill buffs are your friend too. Specific skill buffs are the most advantageous for the same reasons the feats are good, but even a PM buff can help.
- Debuffs do not make you learn better, they just make you worse at casting spells. You can't hinder yourself to learn more (no using a pike to skin a goblin).
Augmentation, Utility, and Warding:
- Cast spells close to your personal cap on the spell.
- You don't gain a bonus for casting on others.
TM:
- When you APPRAISE a creature, fight things that are easier than 'a harmless opponent'. Harmless is where the experience really starts to drop off.
- More mana will get you more experience and better hits / higher success rates.
- Better hits will get you more experience too (just like a weapon).
- Stancing your attack stance down will not increase your experience.
Debil:
- Treat your Debil ranks like TM ranks when determining what to cast it on.
PM:
- Train other skills well and you'll train PM well.
Attunement:
- Using harnessed mana is the best way to train your attunement.
Arcana:
- Using Cambrinth is the best way to train Arcana during normal spellcasting.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
DR-SOCHARIS
COVERG
Re: Optimizing Your Magic Experience
12/13/2013 03:55 PM CST
Glad my barbarian abilities are not magic! Now, how do I optimize learning them?
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Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Forging Guru of M'Riss
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Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Forging Guru of M'Riss
DR-SOCHARIS
Re: Optimizing Your Magic Experience
12/13/2013 04:06 PM CST
No idea! You should ask some barbarians :).
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
ILLIENA
Re: Optimizing Your Magic Experience
12/13/2013 04:15 PM CST
> - When you APPRAISE a creature, fight things that are easier than 'a harmless opponent'. Harmless is where the experience really starts to drop off.
Harmless is based on your buffed ranks, which shouldn't determine learning. Wouldn't it be better to use appraise careful, which specifically mentions TM learning?
Harmless is based on your buffed ranks, which shouldn't determine learning. Wouldn't it be better to use appraise careful, which specifically mentions TM learning?
JULIAN
Re: Optimizing Your Magic Experience
12/14/2013 07:20 AM CST
Any chance the paradigm on full prep teaching more could change? Casting before full prep is more difficult, and there are some really good reasons I might need to cast before full prep anyway (once I can). It would be a boon to playability (and learning, probably) if casting as fast as possible at a given mana level taught more.
Mazrian
Mazrian
TIGARCLAW
Re: Optimizing Your Magic Experience
12/14/2013 11:33 AM CST
>>Mastery Feats are your friend. They increase the amount of mana you can put into a spell but don't increase your raw skill, thereby letting you cast above your featless personal cap. You get more experience for more mana.
Unles your in the above 1200 ranks crowd... :(
Unles your in the above 1200 ranks crowd... :(
TIGARCLAW
Re: Optimizing Your Magic Experience
12/14/2013 01:23 PM CST
>>For instance, a spell tree where an introductory evasion buff led to an evasion+reflex buff, which led to an evasion/parry/reflex buff, which led to an evasion/parry/reflex buff that has some manner of warding component - That could be a more applicable spell tree to combining functionality with training.
The other issue with adding a LOT more spell options in that proverbial Spell Tree you'd have to either:
A increase the amount of spell slots available by a LOT the bigger you get or...
B implement a forgiving system for reimbursing ability/spell slots as I dump ones I dont need/want to free up slots for the ones I need/want as I get bigger which in turn puts us in a new problem....
Spell X is prereq for spell B which is prereq for spell C which is prereq for spell D and so on...which in turn brings us back to option A.
The other issue with adding a LOT more spell options in that proverbial Spell Tree you'd have to either:
A increase the amount of spell slots available by a LOT the bigger you get or...
B implement a forgiving system for reimbursing ability/spell slots as I dump ones I dont need/want to free up slots for the ones I need/want as I get bigger which in turn puts us in a new problem....
Spell X is prereq for spell B which is prereq for spell C which is prereq for spell D and so on...which in turn brings us back to option A.
TIGARCLAW
Re: Optimizing Your Magic Experience
12/14/2013 01:31 PM CST
By the way the comparason of "you cant expect to learn for ever from hunting the same critter to being able to lean for ever from same spell..." is not accurate.
Spells are akin to Weapons not Critters.
I can expect to learn forever using the exact same weapon I used at 1st rank as 1500th. I may not learn as well since I should really be using a bigger/heavier weapon as I get bigger therefore should be using bigger/meaner spells yes. Not learn from the lower end spells at all, no. Should still learn by stuffing MAX mana into it just not as well I could from using a higher level spell.
Spells are akin to Weapons not Critters.
I can expect to learn forever using the exact same weapon I used at 1st rank as 1500th. I may not learn as well since I should really be using a bigger/heavier weapon as I get bigger therefore should be using bigger/meaner spells yes. Not learn from the lower end spells at all, no. Should still learn by stuffing MAX mana into it just not as well I could from using a higher level spell.
ASHBOMB
Re: Optimizing Your Magic Experience
12/14/2013 01:34 PM CST
A few posts back, it was mentioned that lower level spells should not teach.
When should fire shard stop teaching?
When should fire shard stop teaching?
ILLIENA
Re: Optimizing Your Magic Experience
12/14/2013 01:36 PM CST
> A few posts back, it was mentioned that lower level spells should not teach.
> When should fire shard stop teaching?
That was for augmentation, utility and warding spells. Debilitation and TM spells (like fire shard) will teach based on the difficulty of the critter, although more mana and waiting for full prep will still teach better.
> When should fire shard stop teaching?
That was for augmentation, utility and warding spells. Debilitation and TM spells (like fire shard) will teach based on the difficulty of the critter, although more mana and waiting for full prep will still teach better.
MOCKERJB
Re: Optimizing Your Magic Experience
12/14/2013 02:01 PM CST
What if there was just a "floor" to diminishing magic exp returns that was tied to full prep (thus guaranteeing you have a timing limit) and capped mana, regardless of spell type? You could calculate out what you wanted for the "baseline" exp mind lock time, then set that as the floor. So, for instance, I could still learn some from CV, and mind lock augmentation if I wanted to, I would just have to use fully prepped capped spells for 10-15 minutes, etc. If you cast those same capped spells early, no exp as usual. Justified by some kind of handwave lore like "you're spending extra careful time prepping and studying your basic pattern to learn more nuances."
TIGARCLAW
Re: Optimizing Your Magic Experience
12/14/2013 02:29 PM CST
>>So, for instance, I could still learn some from CV, and mind lock augmentation if I wanted to, I would just have to use fully prepped capped spells for 10-15 minutes, etc.
Currently CV at cap will not Mind Lock you for 10-15 unles I chain cast it continuously with over 1K ranks in Augmentation. Under the "new" 3.1 model you cant learn squat from it never mind learn well.
I still say that there should be "diminishing" returns for sepll Difficulty VS Number of Ranks VS amount of mana in the spell as you get bigger. You must stuff more mana into a Basic/Intro spell and learn less and less as your skill increases to a "low baseline" to "encourage" you to use higher tier spells which would teach you better.
Socharis's idea of a "better fleshed out Spell Tree" to include all types of magic type spells at higher tiers is great. If it was in place when 3.1 goes live which it is not.I basically cringe at having to use just X spell for (insert time frame here while new spells get added to address the "gaps")to train X school of magic because that is the ONLY spell at 1200+ ranks.
This game is not about HLC but they should also not feel like they are being punished for being HLC.
Currently CV at cap will not Mind Lock you for 10-15 unles I chain cast it continuously with over 1K ranks in Augmentation. Under the "new" 3.1 model you cant learn squat from it never mind learn well.
I still say that there should be "diminishing" returns for sepll Difficulty VS Number of Ranks VS amount of mana in the spell as you get bigger. You must stuff more mana into a Basic/Intro spell and learn less and less as your skill increases to a "low baseline" to "encourage" you to use higher tier spells which would teach you better.
Socharis's idea of a "better fleshed out Spell Tree" to include all types of magic type spells at higher tiers is great. If it was in place when 3.1 goes live which it is not.I basically cringe at having to use just X spell for (insert time frame here while new spells get added to address the "gaps")to train X school of magic because that is the ONLY spell at 1200+ ranks.
This game is not about HLC but they should also not feel like they are being punished for being HLC.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Optimizing Your Magic Experience
12/14/2013 03:37 PM CST
>>Augmentation, Utility, and Warding:
>>- Cast spells close to your personal cap on the spell.
>>- You don't gain a bonus for casting on others.
Going to bang my dream-situation gong here:
- You get additional experience when doing what the spell enhances in a manner that grants experience.
In other words, Researcher's Insight boosts Alchemy. If I'm crafting remedies that are enough to grant experience, I'd get some augmentation experience while REI is up, because the spell is actually being used in the way that it's meant to be used. If a critter that trains my defenses cast a TM spell at me while I have Lay Ward up, I get some Warding experience.
Utility might be the most tricky, since I don't think they're necessarily linked to assisting in anything as much as providing their own functionality. But at least that brings it down to one "thing" that needs a boost vs three things.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
>>- Cast spells close to your personal cap on the spell.
>>- You don't gain a bonus for casting on others.
Going to bang my dream-situation gong here:
- You get additional experience when doing what the spell enhances in a manner that grants experience.
In other words, Researcher's Insight boosts Alchemy. If I'm crafting remedies that are enough to grant experience, I'd get some augmentation experience while REI is up, because the spell is actually being used in the way that it's meant to be used. If a critter that trains my defenses cast a TM spell at me while I have Lay Ward up, I get some Warding experience.
Utility might be the most tricky, since I don't think they're necessarily linked to assisting in anything as much as providing their own functionality. But at least that brings it down to one "thing" that needs a boost vs three things.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
GNIKOLEYCHUK
Re: Optimizing Your Magic Experience
12/14/2013 03:43 PM CST
>>> Socharis's idea of a "better fleshed out Spell Tree" to include all types of magic type spells at higher tiers is great. If it was in place when 3.1 goes live which it is not.I basically cringe at having to use just X spell for (insert time frame here while new spells get added to address the "gaps")to train X school of magic because that is the ONLY spell at 1200+ ranks.
Please look at alchemy to see how inconvenient this can be.
To be able to train and create challenging work orders with easily available materials (ie purchasable in the alchemy society or available all year round/in all weather/at all times of the day and night and, ideally, crushable to avoid reliance on pyramids - before presses were released anyway) requires careful planning of your techniques or you can easily get into a situation where you have to train sub-optimally because you chose the wrong feats.
It would be unfortunate if we needed to select spells to ensure that augmentation, utility and warding are trainable at all times rather than based on what spells we want to use in our spell books. With some luck, the research system will prevent this problem completely.
Please look at alchemy to see how inconvenient this can be.
To be able to train and create challenging work orders with easily available materials (ie purchasable in the alchemy society or available all year round/in all weather/at all times of the day and night and, ideally, crushable to avoid reliance on pyramids - before presses were released anyway) requires careful planning of your techniques or you can easily get into a situation where you have to train sub-optimally because you chose the wrong feats.
It would be unfortunate if we needed to select spells to ensure that augmentation, utility and warding are trainable at all times rather than based on what spells we want to use in our spell books. With some luck, the research system will prevent this problem completely.
ASHBOMB
Re: Optimizing Your Magic Experience
12/14/2013 03:43 PM CST
this i like. spells teach when they do things.
DR-SOCHARIS
Re: Optimizing Your Magic Experience
12/14/2013 04:09 PM CST
>>Any chance the paradigm on full prep teaching more could change? Casting before full prep is more difficult, and there are some really good reasons I might need to cast before full prep anyway (once I can). It would be a boon to playability (and learning, probably) if casting as fast as possible at a given mana level taught more.
Definitely not. Hindering yourself should never teach you better - It's an absurdity that we've still got instances of littered throughout the game, but we're slowly stamping them out. That's like using a pike to skin a goblin - Yes, it's harder, but it doesn't mean you're learning more about skinning than if you used the right tools. Or like trying to ski down a gravel hill. Challenging yourself (By adding more mana, for instance), which is subtly but distinctly different than hindering yourself, should and does train you more.
It definitely is a boon to playability but it hinders game balance (As we saw in 2.0). If you can shorten your cast time for bonus experience, then everybody just snaps at their lowest possible mana level at all times to train, and mana is basically meaningless. Besides, the amount of experience you get scales with how long the action took (for instance, a full cast of a Non-Battle spell gives more experience than a full cast of a Battle spell, all else being equal). This means you're not reducing your bits/minute for longer preps.
As noted in other places, RESEARCH should help close the gaps where you can't or don't want to use a spell for training.
>>Spells are akin to Weapons not Critters.
Spells are actually akin to neither of them. They're a separate system entirely, so drawing a parallel between one or the other can only go so far.
>>If a critter that trains my defenses cast a TM spell at me while I have Lay Ward up, I get some Warding experience.
Yeah... That's an awesome idea, but the technical limits of it are enormous. It would require adding a lot of code and updating every single place a skill check is made (again..).
>>Unles your in the above 1200 ranks crowd...
Patience, we've already said we're working on this.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
Definitely not. Hindering yourself should never teach you better - It's an absurdity that we've still got instances of littered throughout the game, but we're slowly stamping them out. That's like using a pike to skin a goblin - Yes, it's harder, but it doesn't mean you're learning more about skinning than if you used the right tools. Or like trying to ski down a gravel hill. Challenging yourself (By adding more mana, for instance), which is subtly but distinctly different than hindering yourself, should and does train you more.
It definitely is a boon to playability but it hinders game balance (As we saw in 2.0). If you can shorten your cast time for bonus experience, then everybody just snaps at their lowest possible mana level at all times to train, and mana is basically meaningless. Besides, the amount of experience you get scales with how long the action took (for instance, a full cast of a Non-Battle spell gives more experience than a full cast of a Battle spell, all else being equal). This means you're not reducing your bits/minute for longer preps.
As noted in other places, RESEARCH should help close the gaps where you can't or don't want to use a spell for training.
>>Spells are akin to Weapons not Critters.
Spells are actually akin to neither of them. They're a separate system entirely, so drawing a parallel between one or the other can only go so far.
>>If a critter that trains my defenses cast a TM spell at me while I have Lay Ward up, I get some Warding experience.
Yeah... That's an awesome idea, but the technical limits of it are enormous. It would require adding a lot of code and updating every single place a skill check is made (again..).
>>Unles your in the above 1200 ranks crowd...
Patience, we've already said we're working on this.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
