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One thing that concerns me is the statement that things that appraised below your level wouldn't teach in 3.1.
I haven't had opportunity to get my WM copied over, but in 3.0, my WM fights elder brocket deer. When I appraise them <quick option> with my secondary weapon ,which I have only 169 in, I get something I'd kill quickly, which imho is not a true appraisal. It takes me quite a while to take them down. However, I think the appraisal is including my melee mastery in getting that appraisal.
My concern is that somehow I won't be able to learn my secondary weapon in something that is, right now, still over his head.
<<If I can't cast thunderclap, you can't summon the dark lord of the abyss to devour the flesh of the innocent>>
GERSTEINJ2
DR-KODIUS
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/13/2014 09:26 AM CST
Yes, Melee Mastery will factor in. Elder Brocket deer have 166 offense and defense ranks, so the melee mastery is bumping you up substantially.
With that kind of appraisal it does not make any sense whatsoever why you would have trouble killing them. Could you post some statistics?
With your ranks and 0 melee mastery:
If you attacked with a kythe, you are certain that the enemy would train rather well.
with 200 ranks of weapon skill:
If you attacked with a kythe, you are certain that the enemy would train acceptably.
With 250 ranks of skill:
If you attacked with a kythe, you are certain that the enemy would train somewhat poorly.
So, at this point you have 50% more skill than the enemy has defenses. Yes, it should be teaching poorly. Yes, it should die VERY easily.
I will say this line needs some fixing:
Taking stock of its defensive abilities, and attacking with a kythe, you are certain that the brocket deer is a harmless opponent.
That appraisal is not as accurate (its old code), but also has nothing to do with how well you should be learning.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
With that kind of appraisal it does not make any sense whatsoever why you would have trouble killing them. Could you post some statistics?
With your ranks and 0 melee mastery:
If you attacked with a kythe, you are certain that the enemy would train rather well.
with 200 ranks of weapon skill:
If you attacked with a kythe, you are certain that the enemy would train acceptably.
With 250 ranks of skill:
If you attacked with a kythe, you are certain that the enemy would train somewhat poorly.
So, at this point you have 50% more skill than the enemy has defenses. Yes, it should be teaching poorly. Yes, it should die VERY easily.
I will say this line needs some fixing:
Taking stock of its defensive abilities, and attacking with a kythe, you are certain that the brocket deer is a harmless opponent.
That appraisal is not as accurate (its old code), but also has nothing to do with how well you should be learning.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
MOCKERJB
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/13/2014 09:32 AM CST
Wait, Kodius, you're saying that mastery skill is supposed to gimp your learning of an actual weapon if the mastery skill pushes you over the skill cap of the creature? That seems similar to punishing us exp-wise for using a buff. I thought exp for the skill in question was based on base skill, period, unmodified by buff or mastery.
Example: If I have 900 melee mastery, and 100 in small edged, and I go to a creature that teaches in the 80-120 rank range, should I be learning small edged skill with that creature or no? I absolutely annihilate said creature because of my melee mastery ranks, but my base ranks (small edged) are within the teaching range of the creature.
Example: If I have 900 melee mastery, and 100 in small edged, and I go to a creature that teaches in the 80-120 rank range, should I be learning small edged skill with that creature or no? I absolutely annihilate said creature because of my melee mastery ranks, but my base ranks (small edged) are within the teaching range of the creature.
DR-KODIUS
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/13/2014 09:35 AM CST
I'll have to check how the exp system works.
Personally, I think it beyond silly for you to mind lock on rats if you are capable of killing sky giants with your weapon.
That was the whole point of melee mastery. So you wouldn't HAVE to go hunt rats for the 10th time while backtraining.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Personally, I think it beyond silly for you to mind lock on rats if you are capable of killing sky giants with your weapon.
That was the whole point of melee mastery. So you wouldn't HAVE to go hunt rats for the 10th time while backtraining.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
MOCKERJB
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/13/2014 09:47 AM CST
I think the problem is that mastery very easily outpaces all other weapons if you train a few of them (mastery is always locked, the others are one by one). Thus, if you're a barb or other character with 500 in weapons, 450 in defenses, and 600 in weapon masteries, you would be totally screwed if your regular weapon learning was tied to the mastery-modified skill not the base weapon skill. Your need to climb the critter ladder to chase weapon ranks would outpace your defenses even more than is the case now. You would basically have characters learning very little weapon experience at level (i.e., where the creature was very challenging against the character's defenses) because their mastery kept outgrowing everything.
MOCKERJB
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/13/2014 09:51 AM CST
And I would argue that the point of the mastery skills is the utility of them in use, not the min-maxing opportunities they provide through easier backtraining. With 1000 ranks mastery of whatever, it's super cool to be able to pull out a weapon with low ranks and hit hard with it.
DR-KODIUS
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/13/2014 11:05 AM CST
>>pull out a weapon with low ranks and hit hard with it.
Sure, but it is a flawed and unbalanced model. Not a fan of the Mastery skills. One-hitting enemies and learning exceptionally well makes me upset.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Sure, but it is a flawed and unbalanced model. Not a fan of the Mastery skills. One-hitting enemies and learning exceptionally well makes me upset.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
ORBITAL303
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/13/2014 11:08 AM CST
I think the more annoying thing is how fast mastery learns compared to weapons. If I trained Mastery since I was a new character, I'd be getting a bonus to my primary weapon because I'd have more mastery than I have ranks in said weapon.
Also a bit egregious is how if I am training a weapon that I only have a small number of ranks in on a creature appropriate for those ranks, I'll lock my mastery even if my mastery skill is hundreds of ranks above that.
- Starlear -
Also a bit egregious is how if I am training a weapon that I only have a small number of ranks in on a creature appropriate for those ranks, I'll lock my mastery even if my mastery skill is hundreds of ranks above that.
- Starlear -
OLSONM6
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/13/2014 11:14 AM CST
>Also a bit egregious is how if I am training a weapon that I only have a small number of ranks in on a creature appropriate for those ranks, I'll lock my mastery even if my mastery skill is hundreds of ranks above that.
This. I don't have an issue with someone with 900 mastery and 0 weapon learning that weapon in rats, but I do have an issue with someone with 900 mastery and 0 weapon learning mastery in rats.
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This. I don't have an issue with someone with 900 mastery and 0 weapon learning that weapon in rats, but I do have an issue with someone with 900 mastery and 0 weapon learning mastery in rats.
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THOMPSONJ209
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/13/2014 11:29 AM CST
Yes, mastery has to learn somewhat fast, because Barbarians need it = to Primary weapon rank (i think). Yes, learning mastery in rats when mastery is 900 seems a little off.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/13/2014 11:30 AM CST
Why? Thematically it's representative of your mastery with weapons. Picking up and learning a new weapon means you're improving your mastery of weapons.
Analogy time! I know very little coding, so could probably study a bit and pick up rudimentary, say, Python. Someone who knows a lot about computer programming and is well versed in Java can probably pick up Python a lot quicker than I. Both of us, for learning some Python from effectively zilch, will improve our 'Coding Mastery' skill, but the other person with a few hundred ranks already in said skill will probably be able to backtrain Python quicker. This makes sense.
OLSONM6
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/13/2014 11:38 AM CST
>Analogy time! I know very little coding, so could probably study a bit and pick up rudimentary, say, Python. Someone who knows a lot about computer programming and is well versed in Java can probably pick up Python a lot quicker than I. Both of us, for learning some Python from effectively zilch, will improve our 'Coding Mastery' skill, but the other person with a few hundred ranks already in said skill will probably be able to backtrain Python quicker. This makes sense.
Certainly someone with coding knowledge can pick up a new language quicker. Doing complex things in a new language would improve your coding mastery skill.
However, writing "Hello World" (the coding equivalent of rats) in a new language will not improve your coding mastery.
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Certainly someone with coding knowledge can pick up a new language quicker. Doing complex things in a new language would improve your coding mastery skill.
However, writing "Hello World" (the coding equivalent of rats) in a new language will not improve your coding mastery.
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ORBITAL303
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/13/2014 11:43 AM CST
That makes sense and all but I don't think it's great for gameplay.
- Starlear -
- Starlear -
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/13/2014 12:13 PM CST
>However, writing "Hello World" (the coding equivalent of rats) in a new language will not improve your coding mastery.
Analogies are never perfect, and this is, of course, where it sort of breaks down; I don't think we should consider rats the equivalent of writing 'Hello World'. I think they're more akin to, say, having the tools to build a piece of code, but not do it very efficiently. I don't view the skill ranges as, say, learning a new trick with a skill ("Oh, use the POINTY end!"), which certainly happens (Someone with 50 ranks in Bows may not know, say, the breathing technique of someone with 500 ranks, for another weak analogy) as much as 'learning how to use the skill more effectively'.
But with respect to the gaming side of things; I don't think there's anything wrong with masteries stepping things up that way. I've found when backtraining that the XP awarded for hunting above what I'd normally be hunting at those ranges is much higher, which is, I think, part of the utility and intent of masteries. If however the teaching range has been adjusted such that you need to hunt a critter in the 200s to move a weapon in the 50s due to your master, and it trains as though you were hunting critters in the 50s, I suppose it's kind of a wash.
Analogies are never perfect, and this is, of course, where it sort of breaks down; I don't think we should consider rats the equivalent of writing 'Hello World'. I think they're more akin to, say, having the tools to build a piece of code, but not do it very efficiently. I don't view the skill ranges as, say, learning a new trick with a skill ("Oh, use the POINTY end!"), which certainly happens (Someone with 50 ranks in Bows may not know, say, the breathing technique of someone with 500 ranks, for another weak analogy) as much as 'learning how to use the skill more effectively'.
But with respect to the gaming side of things; I don't think there's anything wrong with masteries stepping things up that way. I've found when backtraining that the XP awarded for hunting above what I'd normally be hunting at those ranges is much higher, which is, I think, part of the utility and intent of masteries. If however the teaching range has been adjusted such that you need to hunt a critter in the 200s to move a weapon in the 50s due to your master, and it trains as though you were hunting critters in the 50s, I suppose it's kind of a wash.
OLSONM6
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/13/2014 12:31 PM CST
>But with respect to the gaming side of things; I don't think there's anything wrong with masteries stepping things up that way. I've found when backtraining that the XP awarded for hunting above what I'd normally be hunting at those ranges is much higher, which is, I think, part of the utility and intent of masteries. If however the teaching range has been adjusted such that you need to hunt a critter in the 200s to move a weapon in the 50s due to your master, and it trains as though you were hunting critters in the 50s, I suppose it's kind of a wash.
I think we're arguing the same thing. I think it's fine and even desirable that masteries help in backtraining. My issue is with the fact that backtraining teaches you the mastery skills way too well.
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I think we're arguing the same thing. I think it's fine and even desirable that masteries help in backtraining. My issue is with the fact that backtraining teaches you the mastery skills way too well.
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HALLACATT
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/13/2014 12:46 PM CST
Here is what I think about this discussion of mastery skills and what I think Kodius is wanting to happen. I think his vision how mastery should affect things is fine if you only train one weapon under a mastery type as you will end up with as much or more in a weapon than the mastery skill.
However, for each weapon of that mastery type you add to characters weapon routine, the concept descends into a blazing hell quite rapidly. At 5+ it is not outside of reason for your mastery to be one or even multiple tiers of creature higher than your weapons/armors/defenses etc. If mastery is going to affect weapon learning then you are going to end up in the horrible position where it can be suicide to move your weapons or you can just train defenses and learn virtually no weapons until you can move up. Then your weapons will dabble up to to the hardcap of whatever you moved into while you train your defenses. Wash rinse repeat, never improving because if your weapon ranks are moving, so is mastery.
This is easiest to see in a hardcore weapon master style character, who would have mastery well over double their weapon ranks in extremely short order. Consider this example from a character I know in prime right now.
They had 150 in all weapons before mastery even existed and has since 3.0 moved all of them to 200 and 4 weapons to around 270, how much do you think they have in mastery? 430 in mastery. 200 ranks above the vast majority of their weapon ranks and roughly 150 ranks over the highest weapons, the ones they chose to be their primary weapons. Defenses sitting at roughly 280. How in the world would this person train their weapons if they had to be in a critter that teaches in the mid 400s? It would simply be impossible. And the skew would be even more extreme if they had started from 0 at the start of 3.0 instead of 150.
Im not saying the concept couldn't be configured/made to work for characters made after the fact, but it would seem some pretty severe fixes would need to be implemented for characters already too far skewed. While Im sure weapon master style weapon training is not the norm, almost everyone I know trains enough weapons that their mastery has already outpaced their weapon ranks by a fairly sizable amount. Enough to create hunting difficulties that would be very unreasonable.
However, for each weapon of that mastery type you add to characters weapon routine, the concept descends into a blazing hell quite rapidly. At 5+ it is not outside of reason for your mastery to be one or even multiple tiers of creature higher than your weapons/armors/defenses etc. If mastery is going to affect weapon learning then you are going to end up in the horrible position where it can be suicide to move your weapons or you can just train defenses and learn virtually no weapons until you can move up. Then your weapons will dabble up to to the hardcap of whatever you moved into while you train your defenses. Wash rinse repeat, never improving because if your weapon ranks are moving, so is mastery.
This is easiest to see in a hardcore weapon master style character, who would have mastery well over double their weapon ranks in extremely short order. Consider this example from a character I know in prime right now.
They had 150 in all weapons before mastery even existed and has since 3.0 moved all of them to 200 and 4 weapons to around 270, how much do you think they have in mastery? 430 in mastery. 200 ranks above the vast majority of their weapon ranks and roughly 150 ranks over the highest weapons, the ones they chose to be their primary weapons. Defenses sitting at roughly 280. How in the world would this person train their weapons if they had to be in a critter that teaches in the mid 400s? It would simply be impossible. And the skew would be even more extreme if they had started from 0 at the start of 3.0 instead of 150.
Im not saying the concept couldn't be configured/made to work for characters made after the fact, but it would seem some pretty severe fixes would need to be implemented for characters already too far skewed. While Im sure weapon master style weapon training is not the norm, almost everyone I know trains enough weapons that their mastery has already outpaced their weapon ranks by a fairly sizable amount. Enough to create hunting difficulties that would be very unreasonable.
ASHAMAN1
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/13/2014 12:58 PM CST
Put a mastery rank cap at 10-20% over your max weapon. Would be somewhat sad on my alt who's an example of 400 melee vs 230-260 weapons but I'd deal.
Samsaren
Samsaren
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/13/2014 01:27 PM CST
>They had 150 in all weapons before mastery even existed and has since 3.0 moved all of them to 200 and 4 weapons to around 270, how much do you think they have in mastery? 430 in mastery.
I don't think that's an issue of the skill, I think that's an issue of someone who chooses to train wide instead of deep. Again, it means that those ranks of mastery will contribute towards making all weapons more effective, which is the point of mastery skills. I'm not sure what sort of hunting difficulties this is producing; is the issue that exceptionally high mastery is making weapons untrainable in ranges where it should be trainable? Because it sounded like Kodius said he needed to check whether or not this was occurring. I have not encountered this at all in my Barbarian, with Mastery standing about 20% higher than his primary weapons.
I don't think that's an issue of the skill, I think that's an issue of someone who chooses to train wide instead of deep. Again, it means that those ranks of mastery will contribute towards making all weapons more effective, which is the point of mastery skills. I'm not sure what sort of hunting difficulties this is producing; is the issue that exceptionally high mastery is making weapons untrainable in ranges where it should be trainable? Because it sounded like Kodius said he needed to check whether or not this was occurring. I have not encountered this at all in my Barbarian, with Mastery standing about 20% higher than his primary weapons.
MOCKERJB
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/13/2014 02:23 PM CST
I absolutely agree that the mastery skills should be capped depending on the skill level of the opponent (i.e., no training 900 mastery in rats); I do not agree that the inverse is a good idea (i.e., I can't train small edged with 12 ranks in rats because I have 900 mastery). I do not think the latter is a good idea under the current mechanics for the reasons already pointed out--primarily because many folks that train lots of weapons will have masteries higher than their at-level weapons and having at-level weapons penalized because of the mastery skill would be brutal.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/13/2014 07:00 PM CST
>>Thus, if you're a barb or other character with 500 in weapons, 450 in defenses, and 600 in weapon masteries, you would be totally screwed if your regular weapon learning was tied to the mastery-modified skill not the base weapon skill.
Maybe have masteries not apply to your top three weapons and top armor? IMO it's a bit weird that you can do better than your best weapon, anyway.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Maybe have masteries not apply to your top three weapons and top armor? IMO it's a bit weird that you can do better than your best weapon, anyway.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
TIGARCLAW
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/13/2014 07:38 PM CST
While weapon masteries help they sure cant replace raw ranks at least not what its doing right now. Here is an example using a Kertig LB Mace:
Small Blunt: 371 19%
Melee Mastery: 885 45%
> appr assassin careful
You are certain that the Dragon Priest assassin is healthy.
You are certain that the Dragon Priest assassin is slightly fatigued.
You are certain that it is about as strong as you are.
You are certain that it is not quite as agile as you are.
You are certain that it is quite a bit less disciplined than you are.
You are certain that it is not quite as quick to react as you are.
You are certain that it is rather less conditioned than you are.
Taking stock of its offensive abilities, and defending with a damite tower shield and a kertig mace, you are certain that the Dragon Priest assassin is definitely less skilled.
Taking stock of its defensive abilities, and attacking with a kertig mace, you are certain that the Dragon Priest assassin is a very difficult opponent.
If you attacked with a kertig mace, you are certain that the enemy would train exceptionally well, but you probably won't be landing many blows.
If you threw the mace at the enemy you are certain that it would train acceptably.
If you defended by parrying attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train somewhat poorly.
If you defended by evading attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train somewhat poorly.
If you defended by blocking attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train very poorly.
If you attempted to beguile the enemy with tactics, you are certain that it would train acceptably.
If you targeted and cast a spell at the enemy, you are certain that it would train exceptionally well, but you probably won't be landing many spells.
If you attempted to debilitate the enemy, you are certain that it would train rather well.
In theory with that much weapon mastery and a good weapon and nearly 400 ranks in LB I should be hitting. What I get instead is wifforama!
< You draw a kertig mace at a Dragon Priest assassin. A Dragon Priest assassin dodges.
[You're winded, nimbly balanced with opponent in better position.]
[Roundtime 2 sec.]
R> attack
< You draw a kertig mace at a Dragon Priest assassin. A Dragon Priest assassin evades.
[You're winded, nimbly balanced and have slight advantage.]
[Roundtime 2 sec.]
R>
R> attack
< You swing a kertig mace at a Dragon Priest assassin. A Dragon Priest assassin evades.
[You're winded, nimbly balanced and have slight advantage.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
R>
Out of the corner of your eye, you notice a Dragon Priest assassin trying to sneak up.
You notice a Dragon Priest assassin trying to edge quietly past you.
R>
The crossbow bolt hits a wall and falls to the floor!
R> attack
...wait 1 seconds.
R> attack
...wait 1 seconds.
R> attack
>
< You jab a kertig mace at a Dragon Priest assassin. A Dragon Priest assassin evades.
[You're winded, nimbly balanced and have slight advantage.]
[Roundtime 1 sec.]
R>
Miir puts his shirt in his pearly white pouch.
> attack
>
You notice the Dragon Priest assassin attempting to stealthily advance upon you!
The Dragon Priest assassin advances from nearby and is closing steadily.
>
< You jab a kertig mace at a Dragon Priest assassin. A Dragon Priest assassin evades.
[You're winded, nimbly balanced with opponent in better position.]
[Roundtime 1 sec.]
R>
> attack
< You swing a kertig mace at a Dragon Priest assassin. A Dragon Priest assassin evades.
[You're winded, nimbly balanced and opponent has slight advantage.]
[Roundtime 4 sec.]
Small Blunt: 371 19%
Melee Mastery: 885 45%
> appr assassin careful
You are certain that the Dragon Priest assassin is healthy.
You are certain that the Dragon Priest assassin is slightly fatigued.
You are certain that it is about as strong as you are.
You are certain that it is not quite as agile as you are.
You are certain that it is quite a bit less disciplined than you are.
You are certain that it is not quite as quick to react as you are.
You are certain that it is rather less conditioned than you are.
Taking stock of its offensive abilities, and defending with a damite tower shield and a kertig mace, you are certain that the Dragon Priest assassin is definitely less skilled.
Taking stock of its defensive abilities, and attacking with a kertig mace, you are certain that the Dragon Priest assassin is a very difficult opponent.
If you attacked with a kertig mace, you are certain that the enemy would train exceptionally well, but you probably won't be landing many blows.
If you threw the mace at the enemy you are certain that it would train acceptably.
If you defended by parrying attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train somewhat poorly.
If you defended by evading attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train somewhat poorly.
If you defended by blocking attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train very poorly.
If you attempted to beguile the enemy with tactics, you are certain that it would train acceptably.
If you targeted and cast a spell at the enemy, you are certain that it would train exceptionally well, but you probably won't be landing many spells.
If you attempted to debilitate the enemy, you are certain that it would train rather well.
In theory with that much weapon mastery and a good weapon and nearly 400 ranks in LB I should be hitting. What I get instead is wifforama!
< You draw a kertig mace at a Dragon Priest assassin. A Dragon Priest assassin dodges.
[You're winded, nimbly balanced with opponent in better position.]
[Roundtime 2 sec.]
R> attack
< You draw a kertig mace at a Dragon Priest assassin. A Dragon Priest assassin evades.
[You're winded, nimbly balanced and have slight advantage.]
[Roundtime 2 sec.]
R>
R> attack
< You swing a kertig mace at a Dragon Priest assassin. A Dragon Priest assassin evades.
[You're winded, nimbly balanced and have slight advantage.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
R>
Out of the corner of your eye, you notice a Dragon Priest assassin trying to sneak up.
You notice a Dragon Priest assassin trying to edge quietly past you.
R>
The crossbow bolt hits a wall and falls to the floor!
R> attack
...wait 1 seconds.
R> attack
...wait 1 seconds.
R> attack
>
< You jab a kertig mace at a Dragon Priest assassin. A Dragon Priest assassin evades.
[You're winded, nimbly balanced and have slight advantage.]
[Roundtime 1 sec.]
R>
Miir puts his shirt in his pearly white pouch.
> attack
>
You notice the Dragon Priest assassin attempting to stealthily advance upon you!
The Dragon Priest assassin advances from nearby and is closing steadily.
>
< You jab a kertig mace at a Dragon Priest assassin. A Dragon Priest assassin evades.
[You're winded, nimbly balanced with opponent in better position.]
[Roundtime 1 sec.]
R>
> attack
< You swing a kertig mace at a Dragon Priest assassin. A Dragon Priest assassin evades.
[You're winded, nimbly balanced and opponent has slight advantage.]
[Roundtime 4 sec.]
TIGARCLAW
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/13/2014 07:41 PM CST
And stats are NOT an issue:
Strength : 80 Reflex : 100
Agility : 100 Charisma : 64
Discipline : 100 Wisdom : 70
Intelligence : 70 Stamina : 100
So while Masteries soften the blow they definately do not allow you to pick up a weapon/armor from scratch and start training AT level once the gap is several hundred ranks. Armor fares somewhat better. Weapons however do not or that was my experience.
Strength : 80 Reflex : 100
Agility : 100 Charisma : 64
Discipline : 100 Wisdom : 70
Intelligence : 70 Stamina : 100
So while Masteries soften the blow they definately do not allow you to pick up a weapon/armor from scratch and start training AT level once the gap is several hundred ranks. Armor fares somewhat better. Weapons however do not or that was my experience.
DISCOTEQ21
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/13/2014 10:53 PM CST
<<<So while Masteries soften the blow they definately do not allow you to pick up a weapon/armor from scratch >>
Especially with "AIM" weapons like bows/slings
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Especially with "AIM" weapons like bows/slings
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TEVESHSZAT
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/13/2014 11:13 PM CST
>> While weapon masteries help they sure cant replace raw ranks at least not what its doing right now. Here is an example using a Kertig LB Mace
>>Taking stock of its defensive abilities, and attacking with a kertig mace, you are certain that the Dragon Priest assassin is a very difficult opponent.
>>In theory with that much weapon mastery and a good weapon and nearly 400 ranks in LB I should be hitting. What I get instead is wifforama!
...I'm not sure what you were expecting to happen. The appraisals themselves said you didn't have the skill for it. I'm pretty sure appraisal takes mastery into account.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
>>Taking stock of its defensive abilities, and attacking with a kertig mace, you are certain that the Dragon Priest assassin is a very difficult opponent.
>>In theory with that much weapon mastery and a good weapon and nearly 400 ranks in LB I should be hitting. What I get instead is wifforama!
...I'm not sure what you were expecting to happen. The appraisals themselves said you didn't have the skill for it. I'm pretty sure appraisal takes mastery into account.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/13/2014 11:15 PM CST
>>So while Masteries soften the blow they definately do not allow you to pick up a weapon/armor from scratch and start training AT level
Mastery was never meant to let you fight things at level with lower weapon skills. Mastery just helps you not have to start at the bottom of the totem pole each time you want to start up a weapon.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Mastery was never meant to let you fight things at level with lower weapon skills. Mastery just helps you not have to start at the bottom of the totem pole each time you want to start up a weapon.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/14/2014 07:13 AM CST
Has it been confirmed that they're changing the base ranks for learning, and not just buffing your ability to hit?
OLSONM6
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/14/2014 08:41 AM CST
>Has it been confirmed that they're changing the base ranks for learning, and not just buffing your ability to hit?
It's the same thing? If you hunt at level with a weapon you gain X bits per hit. If you hunt something over your head you gan Y bits per hit, with Y>X. Masteries let you hunt above the normal ranks of your weapon, so you fill the pools faster. I definitely noticed that I got to ML faster when backtraining weapons starting in a higher critter.
It's like a weapon rank buff. It doesn't directly give you more experience, but it makes it easier to do a hard thing, and you learn better doing harder things.
Don't forget to vote:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
It's the same thing? If you hunt at level with a weapon you gain X bits per hit. If you hunt something over your head you gan Y bits per hit, with Y>X. Masteries let you hunt above the normal ranks of your weapon, so you fill the pools faster. I definitely noticed that I got to ML faster when backtraining weapons starting in a higher critter.
It's like a weapon rank buff. It doesn't directly give you more experience, but it makes it easier to do a hard thing, and you learn better doing harder things.
Don't forget to vote:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
DR-KODIUS
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/14/2014 09:29 AM CST
>>Cant think of another game
Yeah well, most other games aren't 20 years old and challenged by legacy systems. Work is being done to fix this, but its never as easy as it sounds. Google queries used to be supported until it was discovered you could access STAFF ONLY sections of the forums which turned into a BAD THING.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Yeah well, most other games aren't 20 years old and challenged by legacy systems. Work is being done to fix this, but its never as easy as it sounds. Google queries used to be supported until it was discovered you could access STAFF ONLY sections of the forums which turned into a BAD THING.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/14/2014 10:16 AM CST
OLSON: This is about whether or not masteries are making it harder to learn ranks of weapon, because they're potentially placing your weapons higher than they should be. I asked to confirm that masteries are acting as a weapon buff, NOT by simply jacking up base ranks (I worded my question poorly). If mastery is just acting as a weapon buff, then it isn't negatively impacting learning. I feel I have observed this, but others seem to be claiming the opposite, which is why I asked for confirmation. As I said, my barbarian has melee mastery about 20% higher than his primary weapons, and I do not believe this is negatively impacting his primary weapon learning in critters that should teach it based on ranks. If anything, he is having an easier time hitting things further above those ranks, making training easier.
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/14/2014 10:29 AM CST
For what it's worth, it doesn't feel like masteries effect learning to me either. But all my low weapons are within 200-300 ranks of my masteries...
It's hard to know though because I don't even know what a mastery skill even does, I know it boosts OF or skill or something from weapon skills that are lower than the mastery skill, but that doesn't tell me how much.
Like if I have a weapon at 500 and mastery at 1000, what skill am I working with, 750? I guess someone could do extensive testing with appraisals, but as long as people are learning and not seeing an issue it may not matter.
It would be really easy to test the learning thing, I just don't have skills placed correctly to test. Someone with a really high mastery just needs to swing with a really low weapon on a really low critter. If they learn the skill masteries aren't affecting learning. (Or mastery skills do nothing, that could be it too heh)
Codiax.
Vote: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
It's hard to know though because I don't even know what a mastery skill even does, I know it boosts OF or skill or something from weapon skills that are lower than the mastery skill, but that doesn't tell me how much.
Like if I have a weapon at 500 and mastery at 1000, what skill am I working with, 750? I guess someone could do extensive testing with appraisals, but as long as people are learning and not seeing an issue it may not matter.
It would be really easy to test the learning thing, I just don't have skills placed correctly to test. Someone with a really high mastery just needs to swing with a really low weapon on a really low critter. If they learn the skill masteries aren't affecting learning. (Or mastery skills do nothing, that could be it too heh)
Codiax.
Vote: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
DISCOTEQ21
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/14/2014 10:31 AM CST
I do okay learning in wyvearns with my weapons that are in the high 300s low 400s. I attribute this to masteries.
Don't forget to vote for dragonrealms:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
Don't forget to vote for dragonrealms:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/14/2014 10:34 AM CST
Found a character I can test with - anyone know what rank rats normally hard cap at?
Codiax.
Vote: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
Codiax.
Vote: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
DR-ANNWYL
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/14/2014 02:45 PM CST
A post was removed, kindly stay ON topic.
Annwyl
Message Board Supervisor
If you've questions or comments, take it to e-mail by writing me at DR-Annwyl@play.net.
ASHWORTHIIIF
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/14/2014 09:59 PM CST
I believe rats cap at 25 ranks.
SOMNIUM-VISUM
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/16/2014 05:49 AM CST
I do train every weapon, and reading over this it does concern me that by the time I get all my weapons to 750, my mastery skills could be over 1000, and make it hard for me to train my weapons at level for my defences.
Personally I'd say scrap the mastery skills, dump them ranks into bonus pools, and go back to training weapons at level where they should be!
TIGARCLAW
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/16/2014 10:11 AM CST
>>Personally I'd say scrap the mastery skills, dump them ranks into bonus pools, and go back to training weapons at level where they should be!
Ewww... its doing fine. I do not notice any issue learning AT lvl because my mastery is above my weapons. Only diff is I tend to hit easier earlier than I would without the mastery ranks. Its not a HUGE OMG I can pwn assassins with 100 ranks of weapons cus my mastery is 1k but it is I can hit assassins with 500ish to 600ish weapons cus my mastery is 1k where before I'd have to do that around 650ish.
Ewww... its doing fine. I do not notice any issue learning AT lvl because my mastery is above my weapons. Only diff is I tend to hit easier earlier than I would without the mastery ranks. Its not a HUGE OMG I can pwn assassins with 100 ranks of weapons cus my mastery is 1k but it is I can hit assassins with 500ish to 600ish weapons cus my mastery is 1k where before I'd have to do that around 650ish.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/16/2014 12:08 PM CST
Thats... a pretty huge difference. My barb started backtraining 2he and 2hb on brocket deer, jumping to to lower gryphons ~150 ranks. That's what masteries are supposed to be doing.
Again, until there's confirmation that masteries are IMPAIRING training at level, I don't know why people keep saying that masteries are broken. They seem to be operating exactly as intended; I'm not sure how this bandwagon started without any evidence that there's a problem.
Again, until there's confirmation that masteries are IMPAIRING training at level, I don't know why people keep saying that masteries are broken. They seem to be operating exactly as intended; I'm not sure how this bandwagon started without any evidence that there's a problem.
MOCKERJB
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/16/2014 12:50 PM CST
<<Again, until there's confirmation that masteries are IMPAIRING training at level, I don't know why people keep saying that masteries are broken. They seem to be operating exactly as intended; I'm not sure how this bandwagon started without any evidence that there's a problem.>>
I think you've misunderstood some of the important parts of the early thread. It began because Kodius expressed concern that mastery skills were allowing people to learn weapon exp in situations where they could, because of the effective boost of the relevant mastery, one shot the critter they were backtraining on. This led to me asking whether that concern is warranted, given that exp has moved to a baseline model (whereby you are not penalized for boosting your effective skill, and you cannot artificially increase your exp by artificially gimping yourself, like skinning with a halberd).
That led to a discussion about whether or not masteries *should be* gimping base weapon learning because they are adding a bonus.
In short, masteries are not impairing training at level, but adjusting base learning to account for masteries could impair training at level. Thus, I at least think masteries should be treated in the same way buffs are for exp purposes (which is to say, they should have no effect).
I think you've misunderstood some of the important parts of the early thread. It began because Kodius expressed concern that mastery skills were allowing people to learn weapon exp in situations where they could, because of the effective boost of the relevant mastery, one shot the critter they were backtraining on. This led to me asking whether that concern is warranted, given that exp has moved to a baseline model (whereby you are not penalized for boosting your effective skill, and you cannot artificially increase your exp by artificially gimping yourself, like skinning with a halberd).
That led to a discussion about whether or not masteries *should be* gimping base weapon learning because they are adding a bonus.
In short, masteries are not impairing training at level, but adjusting base learning to account for masteries could impair training at level. Thus, I at least think masteries should be treated in the same way buffs are for exp purposes (which is to say, they should have no effect).
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/16/2014 03:16 PM CST
Nono, I understand that, but most people posting here have been posting complaints that BECAUSE mastery is gimping their learning, they want to see it fixed.
Basically, masteries aren't broken, or, at worst, the bonus they are providing needs to be adjusted to account for people murderizing stuff too easily with too few ranks. I don't personally feel that's much of an issue (if you've got 1000 ranks of weapon mastery, no one should be surprised you know which end of a new weapon is the pointy end without having to dabble in rats), but sure, adjustments are always good.
HALLACATT
Re: Appraisal of Critters and combat 3.1
02/17/2014 04:42 AM CST
For the record, MOCKERJB explained my stance perfectly. Its not that mastery is gimping learning now, its that Kodius expressed interest in having mastery modify your experience gain and I laid out what I thought to be a good detailed explanation as to why that would be a horrible, horrible idea. If mastery skills stay as they are now no one has any need to fear. The only thing is that since we are to be relying on critter apps to know where we can train in 3.1, mastery needs to not be reflected in the weapon-vs-creature part of the appraisal to avoid confusion.
