>>Set 1: 50 Backstabs in Prime on 01/15/2014:

Don't think I saw your skills, weapon used, critter attacked, etc. All necessary to draw useful conclusions from the data.

>>Backstab

In 3.0 and 3.1 backstab grants an OF bonus, damage cap bonus and ignores parry/shield defenses. This would generally increase damage by 200% to 2000% for players, and critters that use a sword or shield. Evasion-only critters traded unused a portion of unused stance points in evasion anyways, so you'd have a harder time affecting them.

In 3.1 - since the change I made the other day - for critters only - it will not be possible to ignore half their defense with a defense-ignoring attack like backtab. So the damage bonus goes down to about 200-400%. This likely explains the changes you saw.

This weekend I am going to try and address Backstab a bit. The first backstab on an enemy should give a substantial damage bonus (6-7x thrust damage). Subsequent backstabs should be 2-3x more powerful than a basic thrust attack. This maintains the alpha strike capability, without totally unbalancing things.

In a typical PvP you won't be able to hide at melee or retreat, hide, advance too often due to the retreat penalty and WATCH. This is why having backstab deliver an incredibly alpha strike AND still offer improved damage for PvE seems like a good fix.

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

<<Personally I'd like to see defense ignoring attacks penalize the ignored defense - not ignore it completely>>

I think the ideas you outlined in that post above are absolutely dead-on.

>>I don't think you have seen many thieves pvp. With pulsing invizo they can never leave melee and enter stealth every pulse with no skill check.

How often does it pulse? Is any skillcheck involved? How expensive is the ability in terms of concentration? No, I lack the time and ability to know every guild inside-out, which is why I post my assumptions here for scrutiny and education :P

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

The real issue to me is the reason behind the survival primes leaning on pulsing invso so hard, and thats the difficulty of stealth. While Personally I find blatant stealth to be ridiculous at best, currently some of the checks are so utterly out of whack that stealth feels useless. I know it was stated in another thread that backstab gives a very large bonus on the alpha attack, and 3.1 combined with elminate could give it some real teeth but the current practice in prime shows this to be less of the case.

In my experience, if I can get to melee on someone who isn't insanely beyond me skill wise (700 ranks + gap), I will see them. At that point I can't fault the stealthy type to rely on invso to remove him from sight (without skillcheck) so that he/she can do a stealth action.

My honest opinion is that stealth as a whole needs a modified approach. The starting contests need to be shifted significantly farther over in favor of sneaky guy, and as things progress start tipping back the other way. If I don't know its coming, even skill should be plenty for the first move. Subsequent actions should provide harder and harder penalties to the use of stealth, as well as repeated anti-stealth actions gain a better and better chance to find the target. This gives the stealth guy the chance to get a solid shot in to start the fight, and with a decent chunk of skill (prime vs tert for example) a few repeated attempts before having to change gears a bit. Add in the larger health pools, strength of barriers and armor, and that opening attack even with the hefty bonuses floating around isn't a 1 shot so the guy on the other end has a fighting chance to act and you give both sides a chance to play some.

Where the balance points for such, how fast the scaling should be, and how long the timers are, thats a lot harder to say. But I think a more dynamic setup like above would be a bit more interesting all around, for both stealthers and non-sneakies alike, rather then the almost binary can hide/can't that current game feels like all too often.

Samsaren

For me it just as simple as it's broken.

I get why it was done: No one likes being ganked from the shadows.

But honestly how would Magic Users feel if a defender with 1000 ranks in shield could beat their 1500 ranks in TM all day everyday?

These boards would be on fire until it got fixed.

I'll have to test, but were you throwing on a player or critter? I see nothing in the spell description indicating such a critical feature so I'll have to do some digging.

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

>Kodius - Shatter was changed some time ago (9-10 months at a guess) so that a max success for a Paladin gives a very small window of 0 shield (described as the Paladin-Backstab), followed by a window of a shield debuff. This ONLY works on max success however. If you need a test dummy, let us know.

That's exactly it.

I looked for the thread where the change was made, but it looks like it fell off the forums. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think GM Ricinus made the latest tweak(s).

>I'll have to test, but were you throwing on a player or critter? I see nothing in the spell description indicating such a critical feature so I'll have to do some digging.

I tested against a player. I assumed it still worked against a critter since you said the change was to player stance only. This is what I saw after shatter + throw:

Capping shield at combination of stance points.
< Moving weakly, you throw a massive Dwarven greataxe with a bearded silversteel blade at Loggrim. Loggrim evades, just stepping out of harm's way.
The Dwarven greataxe lands nearby!
[You're winded, solidly balanced and in superior position.]
[Roundtime 6 sec.]

>>This weekend I am going to try and address Backstab a bit. The first backstab on an enemy should give a substantial damage bonus (6-7x thrust damage). Subsequent backstabs should be 2-3x more powerful than a basic thrust attack. This maintains the alpha strike capability, without totally unbalancing things.

Please dont take this as "the sky is falling" comment. I have to ask however if stealth has been "toned down" as badly as it has in 3.0 since 2.0 and its going to suffer more setbacks come 3.1 AND Backstab has been tweaked wayyyy down what exactly does a Thief live off of post 3.1 era? What is their "sthick" every guild has their shtick. I'm not going to list what each guild does that makes that guild IT but for thiefs it was Stealth/Backstab/Ambuish and things along those lines.

Ambuish is available to everyone. Backstab has been tweaked waaay down and Stealth is no where as useful as it used to be.

As a player of thiefs over the years I am trying to wrap my mind around what makes a thief thief and what is the thief thing post 3.1 era.

Basically the question is what is THE thief thing? With their core abilities having been for lack of better word gutted over the past few years what makes them what they are?

>>What is their "sthick"

Stealing.

Codiax.
Vote: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html

Thieves will be fine. Here's my checklist for thief fixes:

(1) Backstab fixes (Kodius' fixes sound right on)
(2) Delete Watch; fix the scaling of the current stealth vs perception contests (whatever is said, it's shifted towards the perceiver); make sure thieves know exactly how important armor hinderance is to stealth so they take advantage of their ability on that point.
(3) Add a combat maneuver like old khri strike, one shot, long cool down, that works only for snipe but results in a dispel (with stat contest) on the target (prioritizing physical barrier spells), and is DFA vs shield (again, on Kodius' new template).

Lead with 3, ambush, stab a couple times before the ambush disabler wears off, khri eliminate...

At that point, targets are definitely dead.

The important ones are fixing the stealth contest, fixing backstab, and giving thieves a way through barriers. Kodius is already fixing backstab. Stealth has got to get a hard look here soon too. And barriers are getting rewritten (my understanding). So it might not even take additional changes. Just my take though.

>>If stealth is getting regulated to first attack only in CvC combat

No

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and everyone please calm down until we have a chance to address the various issues being presented.

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

<<<I tested on a player with 100 evasion, 80 parry. He correctly swapped to 80 shield stance. Except he has the noshield penalty, so he got 0 bonus defense. >>

I don't understand. If I am in parry stance I will auto stance to shield if someone casts shatter on me then throws a club at me?

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>>*Except barbs do have missile-parry at close range. There's an edge-case that should be tested.

Barbs and Paladins can parry aimables (Slings, Bows, Crossbows), not all ranged. Key and sometimes frustrating, difference.

Samsaren

>So I tested, and shatter makes it so you don't appear to be holding a shield. There should be no way for shield to do anything at all while under the noshield effect. I'll need to rewrite the code here eventually as it could cause issues if I ever change the way defense-ignoring attacks work, but for now it seems fine.

Thanks for clearing that up. Happy to know specifically how it works now, too. I'd hoped to test it against a PC closer to my paladin in skill, but I have had the misfortune of logging into test when others are not on.

I've updated the epedia magic complaints, paladin section, accordingly.

Doesn't matter much with autostance, although a small, dark part of me will miss breaking peoples' 10 plat arrows with 1% in parry stance.