Previous
>>The new paradigm for exp seems to be Effort=Reward, which I don't think is a wrong way to go.
>>Elusive
I don't think you are understanding my point. I'm ok with more effort = reward, always have been. My point is that coding a new set of commands/abilities (whatever we are calling these 'research' or 'meditation' commands) whose sole purpose is to add an RT move to boost experience gain is illogical.
It's more work for the GMs to manage and it's basically just a player annoyance. They literally serve no purpose except experience gain. No matter how easy they are to type, add into a script, macro etc. The abilities themselves should have their experienced balanced to what the GMs feel is appropriate and these new commands should not be needed.
Codiax.
Vote: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
MARTINCOTY77
ALGOTHI
Re: IF/Aug/Warding
02/14/2014 02:01 PM CST
>Every guild operating under the current cyclic system would be balanced across the board.
In the sense of Guild vs Guild, yes that would be balanced. But that method its not without problems, Rank inflation being the major one. An example of this was back when skill boosts could be easily stacked, Creatures had to become harder and harder to compensate for the fact.
>I don't recall an uproar against cyclics from the majority of the playerbase.
Players not complaining about easy exp is not really a surprise, people dont tend to complain about things that benefit them. This is not a good indication that everything is fine or working smoothly. As an example my Plat necromancer had Utility as his second lowest casting skill when 3.0 hit, currently its his top casting skill, a swing of hundreds of ranks compared to the others. This is only with a single Utility cyclic available, and very few casts of other Utility spells. I dont know if the GMs have access to this sort of metric, but a snapshot of characters at 3.0 conversion compared to now, as well as showing what cyclics those characters have access to would be most enlightening.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
In the sense of Guild vs Guild, yes that would be balanced. But that method its not without problems, Rank inflation being the major one. An example of this was back when skill boosts could be easily stacked, Creatures had to become harder and harder to compensate for the fact.
>I don't recall an uproar against cyclics from the majority of the playerbase.
Players not complaining about easy exp is not really a surprise, people dont tend to complain about things that benefit them. This is not a good indication that everything is fine or working smoothly. As an example my Plat necromancer had Utility as his second lowest casting skill when 3.0 hit, currently its his top casting skill, a swing of hundreds of ranks compared to the others. This is only with a single Utility cyclic available, and very few casts of other Utility spells. I dont know if the GMs have access to this sort of metric, but a snapshot of characters at 3.0 conversion compared to now, as well as showing what cyclics those characters have access to would be most enlightening.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
TEVESHSZAT
Re: IF/Aug/Warding
02/14/2014 03:06 PM CST
>>One thing that folks forget here a LOT of people who play a Barbarian did so beacuase they did NOT have to deal with magic and the RT UMPteen actions needed to cast all manner of spells.
If people were selecting Barbarians because they were easy, then that's also a game balance problem.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
If people were selecting Barbarians because they were easy, then that's also a game balance problem.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: IF/Aug/Warding
02/14/2014 03:11 PM CST
If the net complaint is that "Barbarians are too much like mages because they now have to work their tertiary skills to produce supernatural effects," my only response will come in the form of a very tiny violin.
If there are other things we can do to help clear the thematic ground between "real" magic and Inner Magic, I'm happy to investigate them.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
If there are other things we can do to help clear the thematic ground between "real" magic and Inner Magic, I'm happy to investigate them.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
ALGOTHI
Re: IF/Aug/Warding
02/14/2014 03:17 PM CST
>My point is that coding a new set of commands/abilities (whatever we are calling these 'research' or 'meditation' commands) whose sole purpose is to add an RT move to boost experience gain is illogical.
How else could you fix the Fire and Forget aspect of these abilities without completely removing them or rewriting them from the ground up? If you equate RT (or the action restriction of research) to effort, its makes sense. It rewards people who want to put the time and effort into pushing those skills, while still rewarding passable exp for those who adhere to the 'use when needed' tenant.
>One thing that folks forget here a LOT of people who play a Barbarian did so beacuase they did NOT have to deal with magic and the RT UMPteen actions needed to cast all manner of spells. Simple. Take out a weapon and chop the thing in front of you to bits. Very appealing to certain people. Now weather you play a barbarian, a thief or a magic user it is starting to look more and more alike just different names for things.
The added complexity of Meditate on Khri/IF abilities is not required, you can train your Supernatural/Magic skills without them (albeit at a slower rate) if you really were interested in the simple play style. While its true there are circle requirements on these skill, most of them are minimal and shouldn't become an obstacle to even the most casual player.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
How else could you fix the Fire and Forget aspect of these abilities without completely removing them or rewriting them from the ground up? If you equate RT (or the action restriction of research) to effort, its makes sense. It rewards people who want to put the time and effort into pushing those skills, while still rewarding passable exp for those who adhere to the 'use when needed' tenant.
>One thing that folks forget here a LOT of people who play a Barbarian did so beacuase they did NOT have to deal with magic and the RT UMPteen actions needed to cast all manner of spells. Simple. Take out a weapon and chop the thing in front of you to bits. Very appealing to certain people. Now weather you play a barbarian, a thief or a magic user it is starting to look more and more alike just different names for things.
The added complexity of Meditate on Khri/IF abilities is not required, you can train your Supernatural/Magic skills without them (albeit at a slower rate) if you really were interested in the simple play style. While its true there are circle requirements on these skill, most of them are minimal and shouldn't become an obstacle to even the most casual player.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
TIGARCLAW
Re: IF/Aug/Warding
02/14/2014 03:26 PM CST
>>most of them are minimal and shouldn't become an obstacle to even the most casual player.
Except that the Guilds CORE abilities run off of these ranks but they have been made 3rtiary AND we are going to make learning them S L O W basicaly you've been OP for 15 years here is your X, Y and Z handicapp as punishment good luck.
In the end this is no different to what is happening to Magic and/or Khri learning. EndGame is in sight and we want to stop it. So back to the GRIND we go. Why not give us different things to do? Build on the existing depth of the game and expand them. Every game every played has an EndGame this one is no different unles you keep pushing the numbers higher "Word of Warcraft" even they are reaching the end of the line with that if not via comming up with different "expacks" than by the fact that everythign is soooo Vanilla now in all instances of Wow folks just dont wnat to play it any more its boring. After sooo many years of banging my head on the same thing I eventually wake up and say "hmm.. what else is out there this is boring me to tears"
Except that the Guilds CORE abilities run off of these ranks but they have been made 3rtiary AND we are going to make learning them S L O W basicaly you've been OP for 15 years here is your X, Y and Z handicapp as punishment good luck.
In the end this is no different to what is happening to Magic and/or Khri learning. EndGame is in sight and we want to stop it. So back to the GRIND we go. Why not give us different things to do? Build on the existing depth of the game and expand them. Every game every played has an EndGame this one is no different unles you keep pushing the numbers higher "Word of Warcraft" even they are reaching the end of the line with that if not via comming up with different "expacks" than by the fact that everythign is soooo Vanilla now in all instances of Wow folks just dont wnat to play it any more its boring. After sooo many years of banging my head on the same thing I eventually wake up and say "hmm.. what else is out there this is boring me to tears"
ALGOTHI
Re: IF/Aug/Warding
02/14/2014 04:15 PM CST
>Except that the Guilds CORE abilities run off of these ranks but they have been made 3rtiary AND we are going to make learning them S L O W basicaly you've been OP for 15 years here is your X, Y and Z handicapp as punishment good luck.
We shouldn't be surprised that DR is pushing abilities to be skill powered, we have literally had years notice on this. Luckily for Barbarians, Kodius has done an excellent job balancing this change. IF powered abilities to cap Potency quickly, so even with Tert skills you can get decently powerful buffs. Additional ranks extend duration, so there is always a reason to want more Supernatural skill.
Yes, 3.1 is moving away from the paradise of easy experience for IF skills, and the angst is understood. However its not going to be the end of the world. You still have choices, casual use if you want simple gameplay, complexity if you are willing to invest the time and effort or just want to squeeze out every last drop of power from your abilities.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
We shouldn't be surprised that DR is pushing abilities to be skill powered, we have literally had years notice on this. Luckily for Barbarians, Kodius has done an excellent job balancing this change. IF powered abilities to cap Potency quickly, so even with Tert skills you can get decently powerful buffs. Additional ranks extend duration, so there is always a reason to want more Supernatural skill.
Yes, 3.1 is moving away from the paradise of easy experience for IF skills, and the angst is understood. However its not going to be the end of the world. You still have choices, casual use if you want simple gameplay, complexity if you are willing to invest the time and effort or just want to squeeze out every last drop of power from your abilities.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
DISCOTEQ21
Combat tested
02/14/2014 04:26 PM CST
I still don't get why my augmentation warding IF and Debil can't train like it used to as long as its being "tested" in combat or challenged in combat.
I get that you don't want people running around with the forms getting free exp, but if I'm in combat and using these abilities to stay alive it seems like they could/should train.
Don't forget to vote for dragonrealms:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
I get that you don't want people running around with the forms getting free exp, but if I'm in combat and using these abilities to stay alive it seems like they could/should train.
Don't forget to vote for dragonrealms:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Combat tested
02/14/2014 04:31 PM CST
>I still don't get why my augmentation warding IF and Debil can't train like it used to as long as its being "tested" in combat or challenged in combat. I get that you don't want people running around with the forms getting free exp, but if I'm in combat and using these abilities to stay alive it seems like they could/should train.
Seriously, I think everyone would adorbs a paradigm in which Warding trained by having Wards affect incoming damage, or Aug trained by having a buff up on something checked...
Seriously, I think everyone would adorbs a paradigm in which Warding trained by having Wards affect incoming damage, or Aug trained by having a buff up on something checked...
TIGARCLAW
Re: Combat tested
02/14/2014 04:33 PM CST
>>I think everyone would adorbs a paradigm in which Warding trained by having Wards affect incoming damage, or Aug trained by having a buff up on something checked...
Makes as much asense as you cant learn FOR EVER from baskic/intro spells... except you dont have all schools of magics with spells in different tiers.
What I am saying thats a great idea but now your having to look at huntables that cast magic to train Warding. How many of those are out there? Thats the cart before the horse theory. Lovely idea need the pieces in place first before that will work.
Makes as much asense as you cant learn FOR EVER from baskic/intro spells... except you dont have all schools of magics with spells in different tiers.
What I am saying thats a great idea but now your having to look at huntables that cast magic to train Warding. How many of those are out there? Thats the cart before the horse theory. Lovely idea need the pieces in place first before that will work.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Combat tested
02/14/2014 05:21 PM CST
>but now your having to look at huntables that cast magic to train Warding.
I think wards that solely contest incoming magic are actually less common than those that contest physical damage, but looking over the lists, it may be closer to 50/50. In any case, only Warmies and Rangers don't have physical barriers, but still, Rangers have Cheetah Swiftness which is balance buff, so, as I mentioned, you could provide Warding xp everytime it pulses and corrects your balance over a certain amount.
So sure, this idea would require a bit of kajiggering to cover the bases. Akin to the way SYMBIOSIS will allow kajiggering of spells to cover the bases. It would also be tenable if it wasn't the only way to gain xp. I.e., you could still spam cast, but having your ward deflect damage/spells also taught.
Alternatively, if this is too much to ask for system resource wise, then, shrug, so be it.
I think wards that solely contest incoming magic are actually less common than those that contest physical damage, but looking over the lists, it may be closer to 50/50. In any case, only Warmies and Rangers don't have physical barriers, but still, Rangers have Cheetah Swiftness which is balance buff, so, as I mentioned, you could provide Warding xp everytime it pulses and corrects your balance over a certain amount.
So sure, this idea would require a bit of kajiggering to cover the bases. Akin to the way SYMBIOSIS will allow kajiggering of spells to cover the bases. It would also be tenable if it wasn't the only way to gain xp. I.e., you could still spam cast, but having your ward deflect damage/spells also taught.
Alternatively, if this is too much to ask for system resource wise, then, shrug, so be it.
ALGOTHI
Re: Combat tested
02/14/2014 06:00 PM CST
>Alternatively, if this is too much to ask for system resource wise, then, shrug, so be it.
I cant speak to how resource intensive this method would be, I am more worried about our Dev resources at this point. Our amazing yet over worked Kodius probably has an endless work list at this point.
There are a lot of questions on how you would handle exp rewards in this proposed system. Do you award exp when the ward is triggered? If so do you check creature OF against player DF to make sure a players isnt stanced down in rats training warding? How do you determine how much exp is rewarded? If you base this on Spell/ability difficulty, you then need to make sure everyone has a full range of ward abilities. If you base on damage stopped you risk going into territory where players are doing something characters would normally never do, willingly get hurt/wounded just to learn something to stop getting hurt/wounded.
Its a very interesting idea, but there are a lot of things to consider before claiming its a superior system.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
I cant speak to how resource intensive this method would be, I am more worried about our Dev resources at this point. Our amazing yet over worked Kodius probably has an endless work list at this point.
There are a lot of questions on how you would handle exp rewards in this proposed system. Do you award exp when the ward is triggered? If so do you check creature OF against player DF to make sure a players isnt stanced down in rats training warding? How do you determine how much exp is rewarded? If you base this on Spell/ability difficulty, you then need to make sure everyone has a full range of ward abilities. If you base on damage stopped you risk going into territory where players are doing something characters would normally never do, willingly get hurt/wounded just to learn something to stop getting hurt/wounded.
Its a very interesting idea, but there are a lot of things to consider before claiming its a superior system.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
DR-KODIUS
Re: Combat tested
02/14/2014 06:40 PM CST
What blows my mind is when people say it is "difficult" to train, yet I am able to mind lock all of my skills in a very quick time, without spending any effort figuring out an optimal strategy...
>>Forms grant exp bits PER pulse like Cyclics do
No, they do not anymore. And putting a "cap" is much harder than you realize. I decided not to spend 200-hours coding up a ridiculously complicated (and likely buggy) depreciating pulse-cap, in favor of awarding all the EXP in one shot, once the Form is ramped up. Nice and simple.
>> given a joke of a replacement.
Cry me a river. Barbarians can be Magic Immune most of the time if they want to be. Serenity blocks anything not fully-prepped, and Swan blocks anything snap cast. Combined you are invincible. Or just ROAR the mage into a whimpering pile and cut his bloody head off.
> lore based combats.
Did you forget the new Expertise Combo system that pretty much replaces Lore based Combos with better effects?
>> I truly dread the day 3.1 becomes live.
Huh? Why is 3.1 a bad thing? Your abilities became cheaper. You get a whole new skill and expertise combo set. Combat Maneuvers are going live (and you get extra bonuses from using them). And you got masteries. And you got a new meditate option. And you lost what? Free slowly-pulsing EXP from Forms?
>>Why add all the Meditate, research and symbiosis stuff? For magic users sort of kind of made sense but adding it to Thiefs and now Barbs its staring to make barbarians look like bookworms with spectacles on gathering dust among tombs in of a library.
Several players asked for ways to show information about Barbarian Abilities without having to go to the Guildleader. MEDITATE RESEARCH does just that. And it trains. Killed two birds with one stone.
Your comment about being a bookworm is misguided. At no time does a Barbarian need to sit. Or use a book. They can do it in Combat for crying out loud.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
>>Forms grant exp bits PER pulse like Cyclics do
No, they do not anymore. And putting a "cap" is much harder than you realize. I decided not to spend 200-hours coding up a ridiculously complicated (and likely buggy) depreciating pulse-cap, in favor of awarding all the EXP in one shot, once the Form is ramped up. Nice and simple.
>> given a joke of a replacement.
Cry me a river. Barbarians can be Magic Immune most of the time if they want to be. Serenity blocks anything not fully-prepped, and Swan blocks anything snap cast. Combined you are invincible. Or just ROAR the mage into a whimpering pile and cut his bloody head off.
> lore based combats.
Did you forget the new Expertise Combo system that pretty much replaces Lore based Combos with better effects?
>> I truly dread the day 3.1 becomes live.
Huh? Why is 3.1 a bad thing? Your abilities became cheaper. You get a whole new skill and expertise combo set. Combat Maneuvers are going live (and you get extra bonuses from using them). And you got masteries. And you got a new meditate option. And you lost what? Free slowly-pulsing EXP from Forms?
>>Why add all the Meditate, research and symbiosis stuff? For magic users sort of kind of made sense but adding it to Thiefs and now Barbs its staring to make barbarians look like bookworms with spectacles on gathering dust among tombs in of a library.
Several players asked for ways to show information about Barbarian Abilities without having to go to the Guildleader. MEDITATE RESEARCH does just that. And it trains. Killed two birds with one stone.
Your comment about being a bookworm is misguided. At no time does a Barbarian need to sit. Or use a book. They can do it in Combat for crying out loud.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Combat tested
02/14/2014 07:14 PM CST
>There are a lot of questions on how you would handle exp rewards in this proposed system...
All totally valid counter points to what I'm pushing for. The quickest solution is that it wouldn't be the ONLY paradigm for training those skills, but rather a small supplement. A slight down tweak to XP awarded for casting (arbitrarily, 10%), and in return, anytime a spell is buffing a skill or stat that is contested by an action or combat, Aug/Warding gets a bit of experience. For barriers like MaF/CoL/CH/MPP, this would mean damage reduction from the ward translates to some experience so you don't ONLY have to train by continually replacing the ward. For skill boosters like Shadows or OBF, it means you get better at using your augmentations by doing the task they were meant to buff.
I like it more because I think it encourages you to use the spells you're training with. My Necromancer can sit around spamming MaF and OBF, or, he could put up CH and PHP and sit in combat, getting ever more familiar with those magical fleshplates and Redbull'd nervous system.
That said, I think the current paradigm also has plenty of thematic sense; one doesn't get better at cooking a steak afterall, by eating steak.
@Kodius, I want to again thank you for your hard and brilliant work, and offer an apology for coming across as demanding or unappreciative. I'm incredibly pumped for a variety of things 3.1 will be bringing, for multiple characters.
All totally valid counter points to what I'm pushing for. The quickest solution is that it wouldn't be the ONLY paradigm for training those skills, but rather a small supplement. A slight down tweak to XP awarded for casting (arbitrarily, 10%), and in return, anytime a spell is buffing a skill or stat that is contested by an action or combat, Aug/Warding gets a bit of experience. For barriers like MaF/CoL/CH/MPP, this would mean damage reduction from the ward translates to some experience so you don't ONLY have to train by continually replacing the ward. For skill boosters like Shadows or OBF, it means you get better at using your augmentations by doing the task they were meant to buff.
I like it more because I think it encourages you to use the spells you're training with. My Necromancer can sit around spamming MaF and OBF, or, he could put up CH and PHP and sit in combat, getting ever more familiar with those magical fleshplates and Redbull'd nervous system.
That said, I think the current paradigm also has plenty of thematic sense; one doesn't get better at cooking a steak afterall, by eating steak.
@Kodius, I want to again thank you for your hard and brilliant work, and offer an apology for coming across as demanding or unappreciative. I'm incredibly pumped for a variety of things 3.1 will be bringing, for multiple characters.
ALGOTHI
Re: Combat tested
02/14/2014 07:29 PM CST
>I like it more because I think it encourages you to use the spells you're training with.
I agree, I know I have been playing a lot of Devil's advocate in these threads lately so it might be hard to tell. ;)
>@Kodius, I want to again thank you for your hard and brilliant work, and offer an apology for coming across as demanding or unappreciative. I'm incredibly pumped for a variety of things 3.1 will be bringing, for multiple characters.
Second this. And adding in Socharis, Raesh, Ricinus, Melete and anyone else I missed. I know 3.1 has sort of exploded into a larger project the originally intended, so thanks all for the hard work.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
I agree, I know I have been playing a lot of Devil's advocate in these threads lately so it might be hard to tell. ;)
>@Kodius, I want to again thank you for your hard and brilliant work, and offer an apology for coming across as demanding or unappreciative. I'm incredibly pumped for a variety of things 3.1 will be bringing, for multiple characters.
Second this. And adding in Socharis, Raesh, Ricinus, Melete and anyone else I missed. I know 3.1 has sort of exploded into a larger project the originally intended, so thanks all for the hard work.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
GERSTEINJ2
Re: Combat tested
02/14/2014 07:46 PM CST
Serenity blocks anything not fully-prepped
that is true for those barbarians that are high circle and have access to it.
At 71st, these are the abilities I currently have:
From the path of the Horde you know the Roars: Anger the Earth, Death's Embrace and Wail of Torment.
You have not been trained in any Roars from the path of the Flame.
From the path of the Predator you know the Roars: Everild's Rage.
From the path of the Horde you know the Berserks: Avalanche and Wildfire.
From the path of the Flame you know the Berserks: Famine and Tsunami.
From the path of the Predator you know the Berserks: Tornado.
>
From the path of the Horde you know the Meditations: Unyielding and Tenacity.
From the path of the Flame you know the Meditations: Flame, Power and Contemplation.
From the path of the Predator you know the Meditations: Seek and Prediction.
From the path of the Horde you know the Forms: Dragon and Python.
From the path of the Flame you know the Forms: Buffalo, Monkey and Swan.
From the path of the Predator you know the Forms: Piranha, Eagle, Owl and Panther.
I just want to make sure that those of us that don't already have characters at 150th plus aren't left sitting in the dust.
<<If I can't cast thunderclap, you can't summon the dark lord of the abyss to devour the flesh of the innocent>>
that is true for those barbarians that are high circle and have access to it.
At 71st, these are the abilities I currently have:
From the path of the Horde you know the Roars: Anger the Earth, Death's Embrace and Wail of Torment.
You have not been trained in any Roars from the path of the Flame.
From the path of the Predator you know the Roars: Everild's Rage.
From the path of the Horde you know the Berserks: Avalanche and Wildfire.
From the path of the Flame you know the Berserks: Famine and Tsunami.
From the path of the Predator you know the Berserks: Tornado.
>
From the path of the Horde you know the Meditations: Unyielding and Tenacity.
From the path of the Flame you know the Meditations: Flame, Power and Contemplation.
From the path of the Predator you know the Meditations: Seek and Prediction.
From the path of the Horde you know the Forms: Dragon and Python.
From the path of the Flame you know the Forms: Buffalo, Monkey and Swan.
From the path of the Predator you know the Forms: Piranha, Eagle, Owl and Panther.
I just want to make sure that those of us that don't already have characters at 150th plus aren't left sitting in the dust.
<<If I can't cast thunderclap, you can't summon the dark lord of the abyss to devour the flesh of the innocent>>
DR-KODIUS
Re: Combat tested
02/14/2014 08:56 PM CST
Well, you decided to pursue other abilities than the magic resisting ones. In particular you spent a LOT of slots getting Roar Wail, an end-level Horde ability.
Glad to see my design IS forcing Barbarians to specialize. That was always my goal. I could not justify giving one Guild nearly all the useful ability buffs/debuffs in the game if they also had access to them all simultaneously. So a combination of slot costs and IF act as gates.
My personal antimagic circle 71 build:
From the path of the Horde you know the Forms: Dragon and Python.
From the path of the Flame you know the Forms: Monkey, Bear and Swan.
From the path of the Predator you know the Forms: Eagle.
You have not been trained in any Berserks from the path of the Horde.
From the path of the Flame you know the Berserks: Cyclone and Tsunami.
From the path of the Predator you know the Berserks: Tornado.
From the path of the Horde you know the Roars: Anger the Earth.
You have not been trained in any Roars from the path of the Flame.
From the path of the Predator you know the Roars: Everild's Rage and Kuniyo's Strike.
From the path of the Horde you know the Meditations: Tenacity.
From the path of the Flame you know the Meditations: Flame, Power and Serenity.
From the path of the Predator you know the Meditations: Seek.
In Combat I'd run:
Dragon or Eagle - OF
Monkey - Balance/Reflex
Swan - Antimagic
Python - Parry OR Tornado depending on the opponent
Tsunami to boost damage if I didn't need the defensive boosts
Before entering combat I'd throw up Tenacity and Serenity.
During combat I'd use Anger to make my bowshots and Roar Strikes easier to land.
It really boils down to how you intend to specialize. Stealth powers (Panther, Slash) are deep. Supreme Antimagic is deep. Crippling debuffs are deep. Generic offense, antimagic and utility are not too deep.
IMO it is the other Guilds that are not as well designed. They (generally) allow you to get all the useful things they have to offer by circle 100. There are rarely any tough decisions to make...
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Glad to see my design IS forcing Barbarians to specialize. That was always my goal. I could not justify giving one Guild nearly all the useful ability buffs/debuffs in the game if they also had access to them all simultaneously. So a combination of slot costs and IF act as gates.
My personal antimagic circle 71 build:
From the path of the Horde you know the Forms: Dragon and Python.
From the path of the Flame you know the Forms: Monkey, Bear and Swan.
From the path of the Predator you know the Forms: Eagle.
You have not been trained in any Berserks from the path of the Horde.
From the path of the Flame you know the Berserks: Cyclone and Tsunami.
From the path of the Predator you know the Berserks: Tornado.
From the path of the Horde you know the Roars: Anger the Earth.
You have not been trained in any Roars from the path of the Flame.
From the path of the Predator you know the Roars: Everild's Rage and Kuniyo's Strike.
From the path of the Horde you know the Meditations: Tenacity.
From the path of the Flame you know the Meditations: Flame, Power and Serenity.
From the path of the Predator you know the Meditations: Seek.
In Combat I'd run:
Dragon or Eagle - OF
Monkey - Balance/Reflex
Swan - Antimagic
Python - Parry OR Tornado depending on the opponent
Tsunami to boost damage if I didn't need the defensive boosts
Before entering combat I'd throw up Tenacity and Serenity.
During combat I'd use Anger to make my bowshots and Roar Strikes easier to land.
It really boils down to how you intend to specialize. Stealth powers (Panther, Slash) are deep. Supreme Antimagic is deep. Crippling debuffs are deep. Generic offense, antimagic and utility are not too deep.
IMO it is the other Guilds that are not as well designed. They (generally) allow you to get all the useful things they have to offer by circle 100. There are rarely any tough decisions to make...
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
MOCKERJB
Re: Combat tested
02/14/2014 09:13 PM CST
<<They (generally) allow you to get all the useful things they have to offer by circle 100. There are rarely any tough decisions to make...>>
For what it's worth, if anyone cares, on the MM side, it's definitely the same boat. At 180th, I will still be leaving at least four spells on the table and at least five feats (not counting new symbioses, which I don't know well enough yet) I'd love to have, because of slot costs.
On exp, if your stuff is anything like new cyclics, you just need to figure out when you get the exp from the activation, and when the timer expires for getting it again, and reset your stuff then. Has anyone actually nailed down that formula in 3.1 yet? That might help for data collection on exp potential.
For what it's worth, if anyone cares, on the MM side, it's definitely the same boat. At 180th, I will still be leaving at least four spells on the table and at least five feats (not counting new symbioses, which I don't know well enough yet) I'd love to have, because of slot costs.
On exp, if your stuff is anything like new cyclics, you just need to figure out when you get the exp from the activation, and when the timer expires for getting it again, and reset your stuff then. Has anyone actually nailed down that formula in 3.1 yet? That might help for data collection on exp potential.
ILLIENA
Re: Combat tested
02/14/2014 09:20 PM CST
> Has anyone actually nailed down that formula in 3.1 yet?
For magic, I believe Socharis posted it. It was something like pulses 5 - 15 grant exp.
For magic, I believe Socharis posted it. It was something like pulses 5 - 15 grant exp.
ELRIIC
Re: IF/Aug/Warding
02/18/2014 01:44 PM CST
<<This was my exact feeling on what was done with Magic when lower tier spells stopped teaching after X ranks.
I just want to throw out I really dislike this particular change. Its frustrating that you need to plan your spells for continued training, not for what's useful. Counter intuitive and just. Meh.
--
In memory of Lisa/Martee. Passed 6/17/2013. A friend. A sister.
I just want to throw out I really dislike this particular change. Its frustrating that you need to plan your spells for continued training, not for what's useful. Counter intuitive and just. Meh.
--
In memory of Lisa/Martee. Passed 6/17/2013. A friend. A sister.
ALGOTHI
Re: IF/Aug/Warding
02/18/2014 03:25 PM CST
>I just want to throw out I really dislike this particular change. Its frustrating that you need to plan your spells for continued training, not for what's useful. Counter intuitive and just. Meh.
A downside that is completely negated by Research and Symbiosis, as far as I can tell.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
A downside that is completely negated by Research and Symbiosis, as far as I can tell.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
TIGARCLAW
Re: IF/Aug/Warding
02/18/2014 04:06 PM CST
>>A downside that is completely negated by Research and Symbiosis, as far as I can tell.
Yes and No. There is a "common" thread in most guild folders affected by the big changes (magic users, thiefs, barbs) that adding extra steps to acomplish what was working just fine before is not really a "fix" or a desired change. Yes there are lovely perks and bonuses but you are pretty much either forced to use the new system with all the extra "work" or you have to cast spells based on what trains not what you want as utility of the spell. Either way its not a "desired" improvement for a lot of us.
Yes and No. There is a "common" thread in most guild folders affected by the big changes (magic users, thiefs, barbs) that adding extra steps to acomplish what was working just fine before is not really a "fix" or a desired change. Yes there are lovely perks and bonuses but you are pretty much either forced to use the new system with all the extra "work" or you have to cast spells based on what trains not what you want as utility of the spell. Either way its not a "desired" improvement for a lot of us.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: IF/Aug/Warding
02/18/2014 04:08 PM CST
>>what was working just fine before
This is debatable.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
This is debatable.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
ALGOTHI
Re: IF/Aug/Warding
02/18/2014 04:27 PM CST
>Yes and No. There is a "common" thread in most guild folders affected by the big changes (magic users, thiefs, barbs) that adding extra steps to acomplish what was working just fine before is not really a "fix" or a desired change. Yes there are lovely perks and bonuses but you are pretty much either forced to use the new system with all the extra "work" or you have to cast spells based on what trains not what you want as utility of the spell. Either way its not a "desired" improvement for a lot of us.
Elriic's complaint was that you need to choose spells based on what teaches and not what you want. Research as a system negates that. Symbiosis as a system completely negates that. Either of these systems allow you to pick your spells based on what you want to use as opposed to what teach.
Now you can argue your opinion that these additional systems add unwanted complexity. However if you are trying to argue for a system that is simple and teaches to all skill levels with little risk and/or time investment, I dont think you are going to get much traction on that point. This is purely based on the fact that we know it was never intended that low difficulty spells teach indefinitely, so it wasnt "working just fine" from the perspective of game balance.
That said I hardly think either Research or Symbiosis are very complex. Research has very little buy in cost and just takes time to complete. Symbiosis has a slightly higher buy in if you want all the options, but once you have your Symbiosis memorized its just a simple 'Prep symb' command to boost spell difficulty.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
Elriic's complaint was that you need to choose spells based on what teaches and not what you want. Research as a system negates that. Symbiosis as a system completely negates that. Either of these systems allow you to pick your spells based on what you want to use as opposed to what teach.
Now you can argue your opinion that these additional systems add unwanted complexity. However if you are trying to argue for a system that is simple and teaches to all skill levels with little risk and/or time investment, I dont think you are going to get much traction on that point. This is purely based on the fact that we know it was never intended that low difficulty spells teach indefinitely, so it wasnt "working just fine" from the perspective of game balance.
That said I hardly think either Research or Symbiosis are very complex. Research has very little buy in cost and just takes time to complete. Symbiosis has a slightly higher buy in if you want all the options, but once you have your Symbiosis memorized its just a simple 'Prep symb' command to boost spell difficulty.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
TIGARCLAW
Re: IF/Aug/Warding
02/19/2014 05:59 PM CST
>>but once you have your Symbiosis memorized its just a simple 'Prep symb' command to boost spell difficulty.
I am going to respond to your thread in Magic folders as this obviously is not a barb thread.
I am going to respond to your thread in Magic folders as this obviously is not a barb thread.
