I wanted to put this in its right place, however...

Unless the idea of saying there should be no closed/guarded was some sort of sarcasm that just flew over my head, it is not a great idea. There is no reason to force everyone pvp open on the account of a few abusers of the system. People can be held accountable to their actions, to a point, under normal "consent". Instead of complaining about what is wrong I would like to echo a couple suggested fixes and some other thoughts.

As a disclaimer, I am set to guarded, not because I want to play policy and grief people, but because I really don't want to deal with random, non-rp related pvp. Which in essence I feel was what this setting was made for (though I could be wrong).

1. Spouse consent for open characters (I don't think it is there yet).

2. First strike equals open... you play you pay.

3. Murder under justice system results in greater punishment. Ability to report murderers to guards at provincial centers, like stealing but with broader range. Instead of fines murders could result in execution or banishment for multiple ones for a period of time. If there was real IG consequences for "murder" I think people would take a moment to think is it worth it.

These are just ideas. I think the profile system is a good way to give people a heads up to what your general inclinations are. However, it may need fine tuning, it should not be a tool to harass others, and it should not be this hard to use as it is pretty straight forward.

So in closing, if people grew up, took responsibility for their actions and remembered this is in the end a game we would not even need to worry about profiles.

Thank you,

Player of Lomelinde

Continuing the thread from here, also, and in response to this post, specifically...

https://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=1&topic=5&message=32487

>>Love this description, but there is one distinction I want to make. If you are prancing around in the street singing "I look like a Goddess in this dress!" and I say "More like a Goblin." I'd rather that not result in my immediate death. I know, I know, death is incredibly cheap to those that are half your circle (the ones you can one shot), but if you are a Heavy/Open, as has been said to be the only "real" choice, then would your character have such a low value of death that they would kill for a minor slight like that?

I'd say that an open person is actually much less likely to kill random people frivolously. Furthermore, in "open vs. open" conflicts, people tend to be much more respectful, as they know that any low-down lamery they pull can be immediately pulled by the other side.

Open people want more people to be open precisely because it allows the community to self-police. PvP and random gankings are (so I understand) very rare in TF. Why is that? Because anyone who pulls anything lame will have the ire of the entire community to deal with.

So open people want more open people exactly because this fosters more community and allows the community much more freedom to police itself.

Open basically says "I don't mind if others have fun at my expense." It's the setting that attempts to support the community, and the more people who choose that stance, the more the community can thrive.

Closed/Guarded says, "I reserve my right to a win button."

Because honestly? The great majority of people are fine with PvP as long as they think they will win. I've had people who report over losing in PvP literally walk a noob character of mine (when that was still possible.)

If you report unconsented PvP, you should report the low circle person whose clock you can clean just as quickly as you report the person who could crush you like a gnat. But this isn't how it falls out, and that is one of the great contradictions that makes guarded/closed so infuriating.

In short, open people are actually a lot more cautious than guarded people, because they know they are their own last recourse.

-- Player of Szrael --

{I wrote this post before seeing Szrael's above post, but instead of rewriting any connecting comments I'm just being lazy and posting it as is anyway}

<<I encourage Fred to be open, not because I want to shoot Fred, but I want to shoot the people who shoot Fred... The problem is when Closed/Guarded people kill Open Fred and characters like mine, who like to avenge Fred (assuming Fred really is just a good guy who got unfairly smacked by "bad" char) can't help.>>

I wanted to ask more about this. I'm not seeing how Fred being open or closed affects the situation. Assuming Fred is a good guy who gets unfairly cheapshotted by some bully, I thought the only thing determining whether or not you can step in and help is whether or not the bully is open or guarded/closed, not Fred, according to the Celesi Principle. I didn't think Fred's PvP status was even a factor. It still sounds like having the troublemaker open would be key.

Here's what I think I'm seeing in an overall view.

A lot of players have a disdain for reporting. GMs are OOC, especially when settling disputes, and that is a bad thing for roleplaying. It is their conviction that players should handle their own affairs and police things as much as possible. Keeping all things OOC as close to zero as possible would enhance the ability to suspend disbelief in a fantasy setting and help create the most realistic RPG world possible. It's the approach that makes available the best and largest supply of idea material for creating RP situations and scenarios of all types.

The issue is that this only works well if everyone is on the same page. As long as some players opt out of RP and/or PvP, either partially or totally, it introduces a lot of mismatches into the system between what can and can't be done by this player or that player in any given situation. Each mismatch is just another opportunity to rudely jar players out of the IC and back into the OOC. It's like football where a flag and penalty interrupts the momentum of the game.

Generally speaking, is that a reasonable assessment of the heavy/open viewpoint?

Kaxis

---

TIP OF THE DAY:
A heavy crossbow is a heavy crossbow type weapon.

>>I'd say that an open person is actually much less likely to kill random people frivolously. Furthermore, in "open vs. open" conflicts, *people tend to be much more respectful*, as they know that any low-down lamery they pull can be immediately pulled by the other side.

I'm not so sure i agree with this. I would offer up the Goose's collection of graverobbed bows for sale as evidence. Now i'm not trying to get preachy - i don't know the story behind most of them, and surely some of them could have deserved it. Maybe a Goose can step in here and explain. And I really don't begrudge them this either. I'm just saying, as a guarded player that often thinks about going open, these are the things I have to consider. One of my favorite parts of DR is the ability to customize my gear and have really cool items. The possibility of seeing my altered kertig greatsword or altered repeating crossbow being sold by someone i can't hope to exact revenge on is not the most thrilling of prospects.

Maybe i just haven't tangled enough with the 'open' crowd, but I haven't seen any sort of unspoken rule of conduct for open players that they all abide by.

>>In the space of the week I saw three people quit over the stunts of one of the less regarded Open folks. People gleefully talk about graverobbing and camping.

Unless they are being OOC about it or harassing people(not "hey stole my stuff, HARASSMENT OMG", but being told to stop repeatedly and not), how is that not a valid RP choice for them?

******************
SEND[Bramoir] Okay, you are all set, just make sure you use your name for the powers of good okay?
******************

>>In the space of the week I saw three people quit over the stunts of one of the less regarded Open folks. People gleefully talk about graverobbing and camping.

Is there a backstory to this? Did some "Open" guy just randomly attack 3 people to the point of making them quit?
What if said person was "Guarded" or "Closed"? Would they have left?

The thing is. Said person was "Open", giving these 3 people the chance to hire a contract killer to get their revenge and/or items back. If that person was "Guarded" or "Closed", revenge would not be an option.


PS: You asked earlier in the thread if i was one of them... i'm not. My character has never killed anyone outside of a tournament or friendly spar (accidentally threw a log at my opponent just after she fell uncounscious.) I actually get nervous when in a conflict and generally avoid it.

What if the baby has wings?

---

"...I am inclined to think the focus of the [Warmage's] spellbook should be ways to make things explode, to help you make things explode, or to assist your victim in exploding." -Armifer

<<Do I suddenly have to assist with Prydaen giving birth in the Ratha bank?>>

Is it possible to have a thread on Roleplaying without someone thinking it's still clever or edgy to bring up this ridiculous incident?



Solomon


Fight me:
http://la-bubbita.mybrute.com

>People "quit" all the time. You won't ever see anyone quit. You might see them claim they're quitting, but that's about it.

To be fair, you might know the person.

---

"...I am inclined to think the focus of the [Warmage's] spellbook should be ways to make things explode, to help you make things explode, or to assist your victim in exploding." -Armifer

It doesn't change what Solomon is saying (and both statements are duly noted). I'm not personally critiquing the existence of Open as an option. I think it's pretty great, actually. I like it far better than than GS's current consent system (which is what my greatest exposure is to). I just think that the idea of 'you can't be a REAL roleplayer unless you agree to not minding any conflict' isn't really helping anybody or convincing people to be Open. I feel those people want to remove Closed and Guarded and take DR back to that less efficient system or go totally un GM moderated, which I think would be a mistake.

>>>>>>To be fair, that doesn't change anything I said.

>>>>...even if they're physically sitting there while the person cancels their subscription?

>>Is it possible to have a thread on Roleplaying without someone thinking it's still clever or edgy to bring up this ridiculous incident?

lol

You guys are putting way too much thought into this pvp flag system.

It's a simple mechanic designed to let other people know how far you want to implement pvp in regard to your character's roleplay.

Some people like pvp. Others don't. The system tells you if you ask, and now you know. Try to respect the other player's wishes and don't be a jerk if you can help it. If they deserve it, go for it. Whatever.

"Roleplay" is a very broad term and everyone has their own little definition. For some, that means being in character enough to not get the GM's irritated with you on a daily basis. For others, it means going above and beyond roleplaying your character, even to the point where you as a player are not having a good time playing simply because you're forcing yourself into doing something boring/dumb/unenjoyable because it's your "character" would do.

Regardless of how hardcore of a roleplayer you are, the point of the game is to have fun. If you aren't having fun, you're doing it wrong.

Oh, also, stop caring so much about what other people are doing.

Done. Enjoy.

-Mr. Glemm

>>In the world which we inhabit, I do not think it is such a stretch to understand why being forced Open PvP is considered a punishment.<<

Eh. Probably because by the time you're forced Open PvP, you've accumulated a lot of comeuppance you suddenly can't use Policy to avoid.



- Mazrian

The Flying Company
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d194/huldahspal/flyingcompany.png

>PvP and random gankings are (so I understand) very rare in TF. Why is that?

Because it's a community of 20 people where roleplay is discouraged and they're too busy scripting anyway.

You can't fairly compare TF to Prime-with-everyone-open.

---

RueaDR: It really freaks me out how much fluff people wear
There isn't a limit? I just passed a girl wearing fifteen lines of fluff, I counted!
Included in this was four broaches, two garters, a girdle and a corset
how is that physically possible

>> I don't have a clue what that character actually is and I'm not going to go spend eight hours writing out a backstory and memorizing the Gamgweth dictionary and all that nerd business

You don't have to do any of that to be a good roleplayer.

---

Rev. Reene

Your mind hears Aislynn thinking, "Hrrr. Just not Caelumia. She creates multi-dimensional pain that defies the laws of anatomy."
Your mind hears Azatia thinking, "she's good like that"

Both of my active characters are open. One is combat oriented the other is not. I keep them open for the precise reason that my interaction with other players should be open ended. The random other characters I play on occasion are set to closed because I don't want to interact with anyone and as such, I don't want anyone to interact with them.

The ONLY time I have had issues with other players with my open characters has been when someone who is closed is verbally "threatening" the open character. I found it annoying because I knew that if I continued interacting with them I would be killed with no outlet for recourse. But I just shut up and walked away and the issue was resolved.

Like Glemm pretty much nailed, "...stop caring so much about what other people are doing."

Yes, interaction with other players is a great aspect of this game, but not every interaction will go the way you want it to. If someone is clearly "open" for anything, great, go for it. If not just move on with your play. The environment of DR is pretty large and you have plenty of options to move around.

I am open because there is pretty much nothing anyone can do in the game to make me want them to be locked out or punished. It's a multi-player game for me and I will at least make an attempt to have fun with whatever and whoever comes my way. Random killings do not bother me because I, the player, am simply playing a fictional text-based game (has never happened to me though). Besides, I will RP it out because to my character, it is a random attack. There's no other way for him to explain it other than them being crazy.

I encourage others to be open because I find it less stressful to my gameplay when I am not bothered by stuff that happens. I have gotten more than just one person to toughen up their skin, and they have found their DR experience to be better because of it. Won't work for everyone but hey, never know. If someone would prefer to be Guarded or Closed, then it tells me that they are more close-minded and OOC'ly affected by things that happen in a fictional text-based game than someone who is Open.

Just my perspective on it.

---

Vinjince Rexem'lor

<<they are more close-minded and OOC'ly affected by things that happen in a fictional text-based game than someone who is Open.>>

I'm not convinced that resorting to insults and hinting that some players have trouble separating fantasy from reality is the most clever way to convince them you're operating on some kind of higher plane.

Kaxis

---

TIP OF THE DAY:
A heavy crossbow is a heavy crossbow type weapon.

>If someone would prefer to be Guarded or Closed, then it tells me that they are more close-minded and OOC'ly affected by things that happen in a fictional text-based game than someone who is Open.

If I were just worried about my text-dude "dying" I'd go play a board game.

It's the people who will waste my time for their enjoyment whom I won't give the benefit of handing a "get out of following the rules free" card.

If someone checks my profile, sees heavy/guarded and walks the other way then the system is working perfectly because they've just demonstrated that they're more interested in shooting me in the face than role playing.

There are other games for that.

---

RueaDR: It really freaks me out how much fluff people wear
There isn't a limit? I just passed a girl wearing fifteen lines of fluff, I counted!
Included in this was four broaches, two garters, a girdle and a corset
how is that physically possible

<<I kind of have somewhat of the opposite thing going on. I play a game to escape a world that is sometimes filled with inconsiderate, hateful, angry, agitating, using, stealing, lieing, cheating, selfish people. Sometimes, when I sign in, I do so to find a refuge from the problems that surround me.

You play a game to get away from RL people that... Play the same game that you do? That really makes no sense at all. If you want to escape people, then you need to be playing a game that is single player, not multi-playered. I also think that if you find the need to escape those problems with a med-evil based fantasy game, you may need more 'counseling' than any game could provide.

Really, profiles are great, but it doesnt change anything how the game should be played. It does suck to have to worry about warnings and such, but I think the GM crew has probably gotten a little more open mind nowadays than the days of old, when warnings were given out like candy. I almost never hear about PvP warnings/LOs anymore.

Myself and Orig. Jrendel were probably two of the first people to ever say we were completely Open to PvP, and would never report anyone for it. This was long long long before the profile system was ever released. I think it was a great release that now allows people like us to put our money where our mouth is, and basically have a setting to show we were serious about that. It doesnt really change the fact that there will always be people out there, that are unable to completely role play every situation, and feel the need to report or what have you.

Personally I've always frowned upon anyone that would report from PvP. It basically showed a lack of ability to deal with any situation. People want to play a game, to RP during an uncivilized time, yet dont want to deal with that uncivilized aspect of it. It is one sided RP, and shows a lack of effort to really play the game the way it was meant to be played (as a roleplaying game). People seem to think that killing a person is the only way to deal with someone killing them. There are plenty of people, myself included, that doesnt have any problem attacking anyone in the game, no matter if they are bigger or smaller. You can seek these people out, and RP enough with them to get them to help you. This opens up so many more possibilities, than the report macro RP, that people like to pull, which basically shows they only want to RP on their terms.

I would say this. As a character, I'll help anyone that pays for it. That's what my character does. As a player, I'm more likely to want to help someone that was willing to deal with all consequences of their actions and all possibilities that the game allows rather than someone who is not. DR is not a WOW PVP server, where players just go around and grief people, just for kicks. If they did, players like me would take pleasure in greifing the griefers.

In the end, I do agree with Glemm. The profile system is nice, but people should play like it doesnt even exist. Everyone should mind policy but equally make an effort to solve your own problems, rather than bothering the GMs with them (even if that person isnt minding policy), and everything will turn out for the best.

Falker