Previous
>>Ok, we all agree that empaths should be able to kill undead as fast as clerics.
*shouldn't
CHRISTIANSONK3
JULIAN
Re: Undead and Empaths (was: Undead and Fear)
12/18/2006 07:03 AM CST
I don't think empaths should be able to kill undead. :)
Allowing empaths to fully enter the combat system to hunt undead would be a reversal of over a decade of precedent and would overturn one of the defining limitations of the empath guild.
That is not something to be done lightly just because some empath players want full participation in the combat system, IMO.
M.
Allowing empaths to fully enter the combat system to hunt undead would be a reversal of over a decade of precedent and would overturn one of the defining limitations of the empath guild.
That is not something to be done lightly just because some empath players want full participation in the combat system, IMO.
M.
ZONKAR
Re: Undead and Empaths (was: Undead and Fear)
12/18/2006 09:04 AM CST
>Allowing empaths to fully enter the combat system to hunt undead would be a reversal of over a decade of precedent and would overturn one of the defining limitations of the empath guild.
No it wouldn't, it would be the realization of something that's already been promised for years. It would also make an empath a much more viable primary character for many people.
No it wouldn't, it would be the realization of something that's already been promised for years. It would also make an empath a much more viable primary character for many people.
LAIGHINOS
Re: Undead and Empaths (was: Undead and Fear)
12/18/2006 10:28 AM CST
As a player of a cleric, on that level I have no problem with Empaths joining me in a hunt afield to rid the world of undead minions. However, I thought of two issues that may have been addressed or not (I really have not been following the discussion closely until very recently). These were just two that came up rather soon in my thinking about the subject and if anyone could tell me how they would see the ability working around these it would help to better my understanding of the arguments herein.
1. non-corporeal undead- these are pure spiritual beings and devoid of the electro-chemical reactions and processes associated with a living being, therefore no longer containing a life energy to manipulate(having passed fully into the spiritual realm)
2. corporeal undead- these I can understand as decay if part of the life process and has chemical reactions to it even if the electro side of it is gone and being the attack would be on reducing the inhabited body to a form unable to continue as a vessel for the spiritual form. Only one caveat here, over the years I have seen various vermin infesting these vessels (maggots and whatnot). Now these are sustainable life forms and since after skinning or searching they do not remain behind (i.e. you see a pile of squirming maggots). I would to assume they are destroyed in the process of reducing the body, and while a maggot is miniscule to the eye, they are a life form that is innocent and viable outside and independent of the spiritual creature that is hosting it.
If anyone wants to take the time to indulge my request, it would be appreciated greatly.
Player of Mankko, Cleric of Urrem'tier
1. non-corporeal undead- these are pure spiritual beings and devoid of the electro-chemical reactions and processes associated with a living being, therefore no longer containing a life energy to manipulate(having passed fully into the spiritual realm)
2. corporeal undead- these I can understand as decay if part of the life process and has chemical reactions to it even if the electro side of it is gone and being the attack would be on reducing the inhabited body to a form unable to continue as a vessel for the spiritual form. Only one caveat here, over the years I have seen various vermin infesting these vessels (maggots and whatnot). Now these are sustainable life forms and since after skinning or searching they do not remain behind (i.e. you see a pile of squirming maggots). I would to assume they are destroyed in the process of reducing the body, and while a maggot is miniscule to the eye, they are a life form that is innocent and viable outside and independent of the spiritual creature that is hosting it.
If anyone wants to take the time to indulge my request, it would be appreciated greatly.
Player of Mankko, Cleric of Urrem'tier
CHRISTIANSONK3
Re: Undead and Empaths (was: Undead and Fear)
12/18/2006 10:28 AM CST
>>Allowing empaths to fully enter the combat system to hunt undead would be a reversal of over a decade of precedent and would overturn one of the defining limitations of the empath guild.
Huh, so your arguement is, this is how it has always been, so it shouldn't change.
And in terms of 'defining' things, some would probably argue that being able to kill undead was NOT 'defined' as a limitation.
Huh, so your arguement is, this is how it has always been, so it shouldn't change.
And in terms of 'defining' things, some would probably argue that being able to kill undead was NOT 'defined' as a limitation.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Undead and Empaths (was: Undead and Fear)
12/18/2006 03:13 PM CST
>>2. corporeal undead- these I can understand as decay if part of the life process and has chemical reactions to it even if the electro side of it is gone and being the attack would be on reducing the inhabited body to a form unable to continue as a vessel for the spiritual form. Only one caveat here, over the years I have seen various vermin infesting these vessels (maggots and whatnot). Now these are sustainable life forms and since after skinning or searching they do not remain behind (i.e. you see a pile of squirming maggots). I would to assume they are destroyed in the process of reducing the body, and while a maggot is miniscule to the eye, they are a life form that is innocent and viable outside and independent of the spiritual creature that is hosting it.
The only problem with the noncorporeal/corporeal undead thing is that Life mana has absolutely nothing to do with being alive (or lacking life, for that matter). Life mana is a result of the perpetual struggle between Order and Chaos. The mana obviously has an effect on life, being that Empaths can heal and Rangers call on the wild fauna to aid them. From the lack of official theory regarding Undead, however, I don't believe there is any way to 'know' if Undead are particularly chaotic, or particularly weak to life mana manipulation by Empaths. I suppose that will be determined.
I simply think 'hurting Undead' should not violate the Empathic oath in regards to Empathy theory.
Wish List: Weapon enchanting, Empath romancing, Bardic Screams, and Barb love-beams.
The only problem with the noncorporeal/corporeal undead thing is that Life mana has absolutely nothing to do with being alive (or lacking life, for that matter). Life mana is a result of the perpetual struggle between Order and Chaos. The mana obviously has an effect on life, being that Empaths can heal and Rangers call on the wild fauna to aid them. From the lack of official theory regarding Undead, however, I don't believe there is any way to 'know' if Undead are particularly chaotic, or particularly weak to life mana manipulation by Empaths. I suppose that will be determined.
I simply think 'hurting Undead' should not violate the Empathic oath in regards to Empathy theory.
Wish List: Weapon enchanting, Empath romancing, Bardic Screams, and Barb love-beams.
LOFTONM1
Re: Undead and Empaths (was: Undead and Fear)
12/18/2006 03:30 PM CST
>>1. non-corporeal undead- these are pure spiritual beings and devoid of the electro-chemical reactions and processes associated with a living being, therefore no longer containing a life energy to manipulate(having passed fully into the spiritual realm)
Manipulation is limited to physical contact. Although I'd be overjoyed if the GMs awarded the incorporeal to us as well, I'm fairly certain we'd only be given the ability to mess with anything we could normally land a hit on (shock or no shock.) Kind of hard to get a good read on this, however, as there are no critters of the living or non-undead (ie, golems, constructs, etc) kind that are not also corporeal.
>>2. corporeal undead- these I can understand as decay if part of the life process and has chemical reactions to it even if the electro side of it is gone and being the attack would be on reducing the inhabited body to a form unable to continue as a vessel for the spiritual form. Only one caveat here, over the years I have seen various vermin infesting these vessels (maggots and whatnot). Now these are sustainable life forms and since after skinning or searching they do not remain behind (i.e. you see a pile of squirming maggots). I would to assume they are destroyed in the process of reducing the body, and while a maggot is miniscule to the eye, they are a life form that is innocent and viable outside and independent of the spiritual creature that is hosting it.
We step on millions of bugs in our (elanthian) lifetimes, and not once has an empath been afflicted with shock. A certain level of "significance" is required to violate shock theory, so the residual maggots and stuff from the undead wouldn't count for anything in terms of "empaths can't do that".
If, of course, they made it so that an undead-thing deconstructed into some inanimate material and some sort of living creature (ie, a pile of maggots), then while it might be ok to stand against the undead we'd basically have to manipulate or ignore the leftovers instead of destroying them as well.
J'Lo, no that other one
The Manipulation List -- http://symphaena.com/index.html
Manipulation is limited to physical contact. Although I'd be overjoyed if the GMs awarded the incorporeal to us as well, I'm fairly certain we'd only be given the ability to mess with anything we could normally land a hit on (shock or no shock.) Kind of hard to get a good read on this, however, as there are no critters of the living or non-undead (ie, golems, constructs, etc) kind that are not also corporeal.
>>2. corporeal undead- these I can understand as decay if part of the life process and has chemical reactions to it even if the electro side of it is gone and being the attack would be on reducing the inhabited body to a form unable to continue as a vessel for the spiritual form. Only one caveat here, over the years I have seen various vermin infesting these vessels (maggots and whatnot). Now these are sustainable life forms and since after skinning or searching they do not remain behind (i.e. you see a pile of squirming maggots). I would to assume they are destroyed in the process of reducing the body, and while a maggot is miniscule to the eye, they are a life form that is innocent and viable outside and independent of the spiritual creature that is hosting it.
We step on millions of bugs in our (elanthian) lifetimes, and not once has an empath been afflicted with shock. A certain level of "significance" is required to violate shock theory, so the residual maggots and stuff from the undead wouldn't count for anything in terms of "empaths can't do that".
If, of course, they made it so that an undead-thing deconstructed into some inanimate material and some sort of living creature (ie, a pile of maggots), then while it might be ok to stand against the undead we'd basically have to manipulate or ignore the leftovers instead of destroying them as well.
J'Lo, no that other one
The Manipulation List -- http://symphaena.com/index.html
ENOTS
Re: Undead and Empaths (was: Undead and Fear)
12/18/2006 03:35 PM CST
Logically, an empath capable of manipulation and Shifting should be able to um- Unravel the body of a a corpereal undead critter. That for lack of a better word. I do agree that non-corpereal critters should be left to us holy sorts: In a death spirit, for instance, there is nothing really to be 'touched'.
Ryeka
Sometimes the key to happiness is not assuming it is locked in the first place- Ziggy
A journey of a thousand SMILES begins with a single step- Ziggy
Ryeka
Sometimes the key to happiness is not assuming it is locked in the first place- Ziggy
A journey of a thousand SMILES begins with a single step- Ziggy
SHYGOAT
Re: Undead and Empaths (was: Undead and Fear)
12/18/2006 03:47 PM CST
Look, you can play around with semantics all you want with "oh, you see, empaths can't cause harm to any living thing, so there's our loophole!", but at the end of the day, come on. Think about the initial spirit of the guild when the GMs created it. It was "hey, let's have a guild that can't swing at anything. Like, it's bad for them. They can defend themselves all they want, but they absolutely can't take a shot." No, I wasn't there at the round table for that one, but is it so crazy to assume that that's how it was meant to be?
Aveda's Field Guide
http://dr.aveda.googlepages.com
Hot hot hot scripts, Antique P5 maps, a macro tutorial, training advice, and plenty of Bardly goodness.
Do you have the latest version of Reckus or Reckus NB? Newest update:11/29/2006
Aveda's Field Guide
http://dr.aveda.googlepages.com
Hot hot hot scripts, Antique P5 maps, a macro tutorial, training advice, and plenty of Bardly goodness.
Do you have the latest version of Reckus or Reckus NB? Newest update:11/29/2006
MATTSMOMMA
Re: Undead and Empaths (was: Undead and Fear)
12/18/2006 03:52 PM CST
>>Look, you can play around with semantics all you want with "oh, you see, empaths can't cause harm to any living thing, so there's our loophole!", but at the end of the day, come on. Think about the initial spirit of the guild when the GMs created it. It was "hey, let's have a guild that can't swing at anything. Like, it's bad for them. They can defend themselves all they want, but they absolutely can't take a shot." No, I wasn't there at the round table for that one, but is it so crazy to assume that that's how it was meant to be?
Maybe you should read the log of the empath guild meeting before getting all riled up. Just a thought.
~Arwinia
Your mind hears Netherlich thinking "Actually i was asking to buy....movin up to 50Pk for Limb Disruption and 40 for Blackfire."
Maybe you should read the log of the empath guild meeting before getting all riled up. Just a thought.
~Arwinia
Your mind hears Netherlich thinking "Actually i was asking to buy....movin up to 50Pk for Limb Disruption and 40 for Blackfire."
LOFTONM1
Re: Undead and Empaths (was: Undead and Fear)
12/18/2006 03:57 PM CST
>>I do agree that non-corpereal critters should be left to us holy sorts: In a death spirit, for instance, there is nothing really to be 'touched'.
In a natural, I-can-do-this-myself sort of way. Might be interesting if we could get our hands blessed and be able to manipulate them under that condition, but that's probably a very unprecedented procedure since the blessing would be operating on what is effectively a pseudo-magical procedure.
J'Lo, no that other one
The Manipulation List -- http://symphaena.com/index.html
In a natural, I-can-do-this-myself sort of way. Might be interesting if we could get our hands blessed and be able to manipulate them under that condition, but that's probably a very unprecedented procedure since the blessing would be operating on what is effectively a pseudo-magical procedure.
J'Lo, no that other one
The Manipulation List -- http://symphaena.com/index.html
SHYGOAT
Re: Undead and Empaths (was: Undead and Fear)
12/18/2006 03:59 PM CST
>Maybe you should read the log of the empath guild meeting before getting all riled up. Just a thought.
Yeah, that sounds like fun. Maybe I'll do that. lol
Aveda's Field Guide
http://dr.aveda.googlepages.com
Hot hot hot scripts, Antique P5 maps, a macro tutorial, training advice, and plenty of Bardly goodness.
Do you have the latest version of Reckus or Reckus NB? Newest update:11/29/2006
Yeah, that sounds like fun. Maybe I'll do that. lol
Aveda's Field Guide
http://dr.aveda.googlepages.com
Hot hot hot scripts, Antique P5 maps, a macro tutorial, training advice, and plenty of Bardly goodness.
Do you have the latest version of Reckus or Reckus NB? Newest update:11/29/2006
LAMBL
Re: Undead and Empaths (was: Undead and Fear)
12/18/2006 04:00 PM CST
<<I simply think 'hurting Undead' should not violate the Empathic oath in regards to Empathy theory.>>
Contrary to popular belief, there is no such oath. Shock has nothing to do with guild values or anything similar thereto. Nor does it have anything to do with any actual harm inflicted upon a target...living, undead, or otherwise. It stems from a botched attempt to avoid empathizing with the target in order to bring oneself to attempt to harm it, and it's completely internal to the Empath. The only requirement on the part of the target is that it must be something with which it is possible to empathize in the first place (otherwise there would be no need to try to avoid empathizing with it). So, in order for simply attacking the undead as normal to not cause Shock, the undead would have to be defined such that it is impossible to empathize with them. In this case, we would also become unable to feel them at all with Perceive Health, and it would be impossible to make contact with them at all via Manipulate. I'm not saying that this isn't a plausible route to take, just that the undead would have to be redefined in order to take said route, as it is currently possible to empathize with them (see Perceive Health and Manipulate).
As for noncorporeal undead: It really can go either way here. As of now, they can be felt with Perceive Health the same as corporeal undead, which suggests that they do have some sort of Life Essence or something analogous thereto. As such, they would be fair game for an Empathic ability to destroy them. If, however, they are defined such that they're completely spiritual as you say, I could see how they'd be excluded from the ability.
For the maggots and such: They're a non-issue. While destruction of their host may inadvertently harm them, an attempt to cause harm must be deliberate and pointedly focused upon the target in order for Shock to be triggered. Since the Empath would not be pointedly trying to harm the maggots, their destruction would not be an issue.
Thanks,
-Life Mage Karthor
Contrary to popular belief, there is no such oath. Shock has nothing to do with guild values or anything similar thereto. Nor does it have anything to do with any actual harm inflicted upon a target...living, undead, or otherwise. It stems from a botched attempt to avoid empathizing with the target in order to bring oneself to attempt to harm it, and it's completely internal to the Empath. The only requirement on the part of the target is that it must be something with which it is possible to empathize in the first place (otherwise there would be no need to try to avoid empathizing with it). So, in order for simply attacking the undead as normal to not cause Shock, the undead would have to be defined such that it is impossible to empathize with them. In this case, we would also become unable to feel them at all with Perceive Health, and it would be impossible to make contact with them at all via Manipulate. I'm not saying that this isn't a plausible route to take, just that the undead would have to be redefined in order to take said route, as it is currently possible to empathize with them (see Perceive Health and Manipulate).
As for noncorporeal undead: It really can go either way here. As of now, they can be felt with Perceive Health the same as corporeal undead, which suggests that they do have some sort of Life Essence or something analogous thereto. As such, they would be fair game for an Empathic ability to destroy them. If, however, they are defined such that they're completely spiritual as you say, I could see how they'd be excluded from the ability.
For the maggots and such: They're a non-issue. While destruction of their host may inadvertently harm them, an attempt to cause harm must be deliberate and pointedly focused upon the target in order for Shock to be triggered. Since the Empath would not be pointedly trying to harm the maggots, their destruction would not be an issue.
Thanks,
-Life Mage Karthor
ALDEN
Re: Undead and Empaths (was: Undead and Fear)
12/18/2006 05:04 PM CST
I doubt if any of the guilds are that close to what was originally envisioned by DR. I do know that early cleric GM's announced that clerics would never get a spell that harmed players, because- well clerics weren't supposed to do such nasty things. Things change. Roles change. I don't understand why any player would be opposed to letting empaths combat undead- it seems to make sense, and by itself would have any balance issues. For me, its just a matter of how it would be implemented:
a) Empaths allowed to use weapons and magic to harm undead- meaning they could use their secondary(magic) and tertiary(weapons) skills to hurt undead. Certainly not unbalancing and would be letting empaths be able to do what every other guild in the game can do(with their respective skillsets).
b) Empaths allowed to use weapons, magic and empathy to harm undead- meaning they could use their primary(empathy), secondary(magic) and tertiary(weapons) skills to hurt undead. I am opposed to that for balance reasons. Empaths would go from being unable to harm anything to being able to directly use a primary skill to hurt undead- basically the same as Barbarians and Clerics, however in this case they would be using a primary skill primarily trained out of combat, while clerics and barbarians use skills trained primarily in combat.
Case A would be a simpler coding process, and would have far less of a game balance controversy.
a) Empaths allowed to use weapons and magic to harm undead- meaning they could use their secondary(magic) and tertiary(weapons) skills to hurt undead. Certainly not unbalancing and would be letting empaths be able to do what every other guild in the game can do(with their respective skillsets).
b) Empaths allowed to use weapons, magic and empathy to harm undead- meaning they could use their primary(empathy), secondary(magic) and tertiary(weapons) skills to hurt undead. I am opposed to that for balance reasons. Empaths would go from being unable to harm anything to being able to directly use a primary skill to hurt undead- basically the same as Barbarians and Clerics, however in this case they would be using a primary skill primarily trained out of combat, while clerics and barbarians use skills trained primarily in combat.
Case A would be a simpler coding process, and would have far less of a game balance controversy.
MOD-LOURDA
Re: Undead and Empaths (was: Undead and Fear)
12/18/2006 06:25 PM CST
Greetings,
Folks, we need to get back to the folder topic: The Undead. It's for discussion of undead creatures not whether or not a particular guild should or should not be allowed to hunt, kill, maim, dance, or party with the undead.
For that reason, this thread would be better discussed in the Empath folder from this point forward.
Regards,
Lourda
Folks, we need to get back to the folder topic: The Undead. It's for discussion of undead creatures not whether or not a particular guild should or should not be allowed to hunt, kill, maim, dance, or party with the undead.
For that reason, this thread would be better discussed in the Empath folder from this point forward.
Regards,
Lourda
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Undead and Empaths (was: Undead and Fear)
12/18/2006 06:36 PM CST
>>Contrary to popular belief, there is no such oath. Shock has nothing to do with guild values or anything similar thereto. Nor does it have anything to do with any actual harm inflicted upon a target...living, undead, or otherwise.
Yes, I know that. I actually only used the phrase 'oath' once while referring to 'Empathy theory' the rest of it.
And (to avoid getting my post pulled) I will point out that the entire crux of the discussion is, in my mind, what exactly it means to be Undead. Any discussion in regards to Empaths shouldn't do this or shouldn't do that because Empaths don't do that is ignoring half the discussion (which is, in fact, the Undead).
Wish List: Weapon enchanting, Empath romancing, Bardic Screams, and Barb love-beams.
Yes, I know that. I actually only used the phrase 'oath' once while referring to 'Empathy theory' the rest of it.
And (to avoid getting my post pulled) I will point out that the entire crux of the discussion is, in my mind, what exactly it means to be Undead. Any discussion in regards to Empaths shouldn't do this or shouldn't do that because Empaths don't do that is ignoring half the discussion (which is, in fact, the Undead).
Wish List: Weapon enchanting, Empath romancing, Bardic Screams, and Barb love-beams.
VROTSOSJ
Re: Undead and Empaths (was: Undead and Fear)
12/18/2006 08:56 PM CST
>>Think about the initial spirit of the guild when the GMs created it.
It was documented that empaths would be able to hunt/heal back to death, undead when it was created so I don't think your "spirit of the guild" argument is well founded.
I am --- Navak
It was documented that empaths would be able to hunt/heal back to death, undead when it was created so I don't think your "spirit of the guild" argument is well founded.
I am --- Navak
THREEPHI
Re: Undead and Empaths (was: Undead and Fear)
12/21/2006 08:21 AM CST
>The only problem with the noncorporeal/corporeal undead thing is that Life mana has absolutely nothing to do with being alive (or lacking life, for that matter). Life mana is a result of the perpetual struggle between Order and Chaos. The mana obviously has an effect on life, being that Empaths can heal and Rangers call on the wild fauna to aid them. From the lack of official theory regarding Undead, however, I don't believe there is any way to 'know' if Undead are particularly chaotic, or particularly weak to life mana manipulation by Empaths. I suppose that will be determined.
I didn't know that stuff about life mana and order vs. chaos, very interesting. But I don't think that's relevant to this specific issue, since what enables Empaths to manipulate, take wounds from other beings, perceive health, etc is life energy and not life mana. They are related but operate in totally different realms. Do shopkeepers or ship rats have any life mana about them? No. They and other beings have Life Energy which is what Empaths sense when they perceive health.
I didn't know that stuff about life mana and order vs. chaos, very interesting. But I don't think that's relevant to this specific issue, since what enables Empaths to manipulate, take wounds from other beings, perceive health, etc is life energy and not life mana. They are related but operate in totally different realms. Do shopkeepers or ship rats have any life mana about them? No. They and other beings have Life Energy which is what Empaths sense when they perceive health.
THREEPHI
