>If you see any data that is wrong, click the creature link and then click "Edit with form" to correct it.

As far as updating if you haven't hit the cap yet on a critter should we update to where we are?

I'm currently hunting DP Crones. They are still teaching TM very well at 538 ranks and weapons at 510. I didn't want to update wrong and piss people off but they are listed Dragon Priest Crone 300 Min and no info for cap. But so people know they can hunt them pretty deep.

Also Dragon Priest Zealot 400 520 Max, I know they don't teach TM much past 500, but can lock weapon at 500+ just EXTREMELY slow. Like 45 minutes slow.

I like to add where I can, but on stuff I am certain of so if there is a list or rules or something would be great when to and not update critter stuff (people get mad when text get struck down). Thanks for any info or I can ask Uz when he gets on in Plat tonight


[20:11] Chatter[Arathael] Usually only get skill when it's successful.
[20:13] Chatter[Morpion] Thats why Arathael has 0.00 ranks in Getting Girls
[20:14] Chatter[Arathael] =(

>>Mkibbe1: As far as updating if you haven't hit the cap yet on a critter should we update to where we are?

I would hold off until you hit the hard cap. Otherwise, people might think your "progress report" is the cap and not realize that it needs updating. But I am not very involved in the critter content, so another admin may disagree.

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Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!

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Is it possible to put a link on each critter that will bring you back to ladder page? Can easily open a new tab when clicking on it or go back, but just as a suggestion.

[20:11] Chatter[Arathael] Usually only get skill when it's successful.
[20:13] Chatter[Morpion] Thats why Arathael has 0.00 ranks in Getting Girls
[20:14] Chatter[Arathael] =(

>I didn't want to update wrong and piss people off

I don't think providing accurate information would upset people. I always put information in the notes if I feel like there's additional relevant information though (stats, slow's at XXX but still teaches, etc.) You should definitely update, if someone comes along and thinks it's wrong due to their data they have the option to edit also.

PLEASE update it!! Put your notes about Zealots in the notes section about weapons teaching but slowing etc.

I personally rely on the creature updates and it helps a lot when people put in all that information like that and update the skill ranges. I definitely do for any creatures that I hunt - especially on the high end because that's easier to gauge and all.

>people get mad when text get struck down

Just be conservative when updating the low numbers really and put them a little higher than you would guess? There are too many variables anyway with stats and stance and everything else, the numbers are just a general guideline IMHO, not a set number when you can start a creature.

Thanks for helping expand the bestiary!! Keep it up!

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Mmmmm...pie

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>What are you guys using to judge a bottom cap? Hitting them 3/4 of the time? Top cap guessing when it just slows to stupid amount of time to get to high mind state?

If I do fill in the bottom gap it's because it's similar to another creature that I know more about or can compare to, OR if it's something that I've tried that I'm on the verge of that I can guess at. But otherwise all my exp isn't exactly the same due to primary, secondary and tertiary so that helps narrow it down. For example - the new magius and thralls you can I have trouble hitting with my weapons in the low 600's, not too hard hitting with weapons in the high 600's but not consistently. I can stand there with four of them but they get hits in now and then so they are about equal to what I hunt, I think a bit harder, and they appraise similar and harder. Just put all the variables together and make an educated guess and if I'm wrong someone else can revise it. I always put notes in the description too in order to help anyone looking see where I'm coming from and using that to gauge as well (see Peccary's: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Peccary)

Example on appraisal comparison:

What I currently hunt:
If you defended by parrying attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train acceptably.
If you defended by evading attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train somewhat poorly.
If you defended by blocking attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train acceptably.
If you attempted to beguile the enemy with tactics, you are certain that it would train somewhat poorly.
If you targeted and cast a spell at the enemy, you are certain that it would train acceptably.
If you attempted to debilitate the enemy, you are certain that it would train somewhat poorly.

New Thrall:
If you defended by parrying attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train rather well.
If you defended by evading attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train acceptably.
If you defended by blocking attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train acceptably.
If you attempted to beguile the enemy with tactics, you are certain that it would train acceptably.
If you targeted and cast a spell at the enemy, you are certain that it would train acceptably.
If you attempted to debilitate the enemy, you are certain that it would train acceptably.
The thrall appears immune to all poisons.

New Magus:
If you defended by parrying attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train rather well.
If you defended by evading attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train acceptably.
If you defended by blocking attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train rather well.
If you attempted to beguile the enemy with tactics, you are certain that it would train acceptably.
If you targeted and cast a spell at the enemy, you are certain that it would train acceptably.
If you attempted to debilitate the enemy, you are certain that it would train acceptably.

So knowing where these six skills are alone, and not including the rest of the appraisal, and with them being in a range of 200 ranks from each other I can tell that based on what I hunt thralls are slightly higher and magus are slightly higher than that.

This all being said (and turning into a way longer post than I planned so I apologize for the wall of text) the creature I currently hunt has a min that's a bit higher than I would have put and when I moved to this creature my skills were about 50 below the min threshold and I handled them fine. I should update that but I haven't...yet at least because I hadn't really thought about it until now.

>Honestly I wonder how this can't just get filled in with good numbers by GM's. Not all at once and overwork the already overworked. But outside of new critters, what would the harm be?

I think it's just the PAFO spirit of DR vs Gemstone or something.

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Mmmmm...pie

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The following is conjecture and musings I've had on the subject:

The problem with the caps is the same problem as weapon tiers. There's a lot that goes into each critter that can impact the numbers, and oftentimes these impactors throw the numbers off. Things like spell damage, special abilities, weapons or lack thereof, and stats. Stats on your end, stats on their end.

Also, I have a hypothesis that skillsets matter beyond bit caps for training, as well as passive vs. active and how each skill factors into how it trains.

None of that is including buffs, which elanthipedia has tried to be good about not using buffs when determining ranges.

While I'd love to get a group together with enough appraisal to get certains and appraise every critter, resetting min caps to a rank range that appraises around "train acceptable" and max caps to "train very poorly", even those numbers will be off from person to person with variance to stats.

So, while elanthipedia can never be perfectly accurate "for you" it does make for a great general idea. The same goes for any GM tier/number/rank system they try to create.

Oh, and in regards to the release of new critters, get a group with a moon mage and group inviso to go in and appraise a new critter, record the results. YMMV

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"Game balance is sobbing over in the corner as it considers the ramifications of AoE Blufmor Garaen. Your spell slots send their condolences." - GM Raesh

Min caps on the wiki are pretty much all correct anyway.

The difference between a min cap and a max cap is that min cap is when you are first able to survive and max cap is when learning stops.

Min cap is therefore quite variable based on stats and abilities. Max cap on the other hand is pretty precise because learning literally stops from one rank to the next. The reason why hard caps are very inaccurate on the wiki while min caps stayed accurate is that 3.1 changed the experience paradigm for critters scaled from their base difficulty rather than the actual difficulty of the critters. At least that's the Cole's Notes version I think.

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Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators

What do people think about adding "recommended" ladders? For example, I am currently working on a Zoluren skinning-based ladder, but it also factors in things like creature spawn. So rather than list EVERY critter that teaches at X rank, I'm listing what is (in my opinion) the best one.

Is there room and/or interest in something like this?

And a big thank you to Isharon and the other elanthipedia admins. As it is I can tell this is already going to be really useful.

I couldn't seem to find a link to these easily from the main page. I hunted back though the forums and bookmarked the link from there, but any way someone can make a link from somewhere? Perhaps the bestiary page? Or point me to where I can find it?

Thanks!!!

Megan

This is fantastic, thank you all so much for doing this. I have been using the beastiary for so long, but this is better for planning hunting.

>>Absolon: Fwiw, this is exactly the same output you would get with the bestiary after a bit of sorting and adjusting display amounts, except that some of the more useful searches have been done for you in advance.

I just got tired of explaining how to use the query. XD

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Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!

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You're going to make me take the time and get the other province levels, aren't you?

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NaOH+HI

<<You're going to make me take the time and get the other province levels, aren't you?

Does the updated subject title entice you more?

Nikpack

>>DR-Naohhi: You're going to make me take the time and get the other province levels, aren't you?

Pretty please?

Knowing the creature level is at least a starting point for when rank data is unavailable or outdated.

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Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!

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>>DR-Naohhi: PS - for missing creatures(not on the list).. if anyone wants to build a list of them.. I can get data for them, but it'll take longer.

Just click the arrow in the "Creature Level" column to sort the existing table by creature level. The missing ones will be grouped together.

https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Category:Hunting_ladders

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Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!

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