I've noticed that I can stay melee with 4 critters no problem for as long as I want, training TM, melee weapons and so on. But when I start training HT/LT I become more susceptible to one/two shots. My stance doesn't change for training it and I'm always parried when I start.
Anyone else notice this, working as intended?
Avrii says, "I'll train while youre not on and other than that you'll never see me."
You say, "Maybe y'should start wif that."
AIM3
REWYN
Re: Thrown debuffing defenses?
01/01/2013 02:02 PM CST
I believe the THROW command has a large defensive penalty, similar to THRUST, but less than LUNGE.
BEVERAGEK
Re: Thrown debuffing defenses?
01/01/2013 02:05 PM CST
>>I believe the THROW command has a large defensive penalty
It's weird because you don't need to go back into a DODGE stance after you THROW something. It still shows your last maneuver as Dodge.
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
It's weird because you don't need to go back into a DODGE stance after you THROW something. It still shows your last maneuver as Dodge.
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
AIM3
Re: Thrown debuffing defenses?
01/01/2013 02:13 PM CST
I worked it into my TM routine and it helped a little but still the same problem. I thought it was maybe because I was fighting the same critter for the entire duration of my HT training but targeted burns through them pretty fast and I'm still getting hit after a while. I was casting once, throwing once.
When I do /stance it never changed from parry. All my buffs stayed up for the duration. I left for 5 minutes to heal came back and I was back to dodging them fine.
If I had to guess, it's some kind of stacking debuff but maybe a GM could chime in here.
Avrii says, "I'll train while youre not on and other than that you'll never see me."
You say, "Maybe y'should start wif that."
When I do /stance it never changed from parry. All my buffs stayed up for the duration. I left for 5 minutes to heal came back and I was back to dodging them fine.
If I had to guess, it's some kind of stacking debuff but maybe a GM could chime in here.
Avrii says, "I'll train while youre not on and other than that you'll never see me."
You say, "Maybe y'should start wif that."
REWYN
Re: Thrown debuffing defenses?
01/01/2013 02:52 PM CST
>>It's weird because you don't need to go back into a DODGE stance after you THROW something. It still shows your last maneuver as Dodge.
Do you need to go back into dodge after using the FIRE command?
Do you need to go back into dodge after using the FIRE command?
BEVERAGEK
Re: Thrown debuffing defenses?
01/01/2013 03:13 PM CST
>>Do you need to go back into dodge after using the FIRE command?
Not sure. Does FIRE have a defense penalty associated with it?
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
Not sure. Does FIRE have a defense penalty associated with it?
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
YAMCER
Re: Thrown debuffing defenses?
01/01/2013 04:02 PM CST
<<But when I start training HT/LT I become more susceptible to one/two shots>>
Are you using a party stick? It might be that when you are throwing your weapon you no longer have an item to parry with.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
Are you using a party stick? It might be that when you are throwing your weapon you no longer have an item to parry with.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
BEVERAGEK
Re: Thrown debuffing defenses?
01/01/2013 04:10 PM CST
>>Are you using a party stick? It might be that when you are throwing your weapon you no longer have an item to parry with.
Or conversely, that the subject's Brawling skill is significantly lower than the thrown weapon's corresponding melee weapon skill.
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
Or conversely, that the subject's Brawling skill is significantly lower than the thrown weapon's corresponding melee weapon skill.
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
AIM3
Re: Thrown debuffing defenses?
01/01/2013 04:27 PM CST
No, I only use shield. I got parry high enough for 150 and now I train it with the extra points that you get from circling. My stance is 100% evasion 89 shield. Full SUF up, SW, YS (heavy plate) everything is in reasonably good condition.
I started using retreat to keep myself at least at pole range or farther and that got me a little farther along towards 34/34 but after a bit the webs hit me almost every time. They get to melee and it's like I'm hunting elders without armor on.
I wouldn't find it so strange if I couldn't hang with 4 forever. Is anyone else encountering this problem? My thief trains LT and I haven't noticed this to any great degree.
Avrii says, "I'll train while youre not on and other than that you'll never see me."
You say, "Maybe y'should start wif that."
I started using retreat to keep myself at least at pole range or farther and that got me a little farther along towards 34/34 but after a bit the webs hit me almost every time. They get to melee and it's like I'm hunting elders without armor on.
I wouldn't find it so strange if I couldn't hang with 4 forever. Is anyone else encountering this problem? My thief trains LT and I haven't noticed this to any great degree.
Avrii says, "I'll train while youre not on and other than that you'll never see me."
You say, "Maybe y'should start wif that."
AIM3
Re: Thrown debuffing defenses?
01/01/2013 05:04 PM CST
It's almost like clockwork now that I've noticed it. From 0/34 I get to 15-17/34 before the light hits start in. If I make it to 25/34 by retreating and they get to melee, it's a toss up whether my familiar will drag me out in time to save me because it only takes, at most, 4 hits.
For now I'm training ME in between to mitigate whatever debuff I'm getting.
Avrii says, "I'll train while youre not on and other than that you'll never see me."
You say, "Maybe y'should start wif that."
For now I'm training ME in between to mitigate whatever debuff I'm getting.
Avrii says, "I'll train while youre not on and other than that you'll never see me."
You say, "Maybe y'should start wif that."
SHADOWCHIEF3
Re: Thrown debuffing defenses?
01/01/2013 05:20 PM CST
I have noticed getting whacked a bit more while training LT, but I thought it was just coincidence. I would hope the throw command doesn't have any sort of hefty penalty to it. Its bad enough not being able to gain balance with a thrown weapon, and also not getting any type of aim bonus to improve accuracy. Could just be a bug though.
VEE-REX
Re: Thrown debuffing defenses?
01/01/2013 05:26 PM CST
>>No, I only use shield.
I'm confused, I thought you were parrying?
Thrown once gave a defense penalty on the throw verb but that was killed 7-8'ish years ago. Since then, I've never noticed any penalty whatsoever and I spend a significant amount of time training LT. It's probably something simple that you'll figure out soon.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
I'm confused, I thought you were parrying?
Thrown once gave a defense penalty on the throw verb but that was killed 7-8'ish years ago. Since then, I've never noticed any penalty whatsoever and I spend a significant amount of time training LT. It's probably something simple that you'll figure out soon.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
BEVERAGEK
Re: Thrown debuffing defenses?
01/01/2013 05:30 PM CST
There was an old bug that existed which compiled the weight of the thrown item in your encumbrance upon every throw. Last I heard that little bug was fixed though, but what you're describing sounds like what used to happen back when the bug existed.
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
SHADOWCHIEF3
Re: Thrown debuffing defenses?
01/01/2013 05:31 PM CST
<I have noticed getting whacked a bit more while training LT, but I thought it was just coincidence. I would hope the throw command doesn't have any sort of hefty penalty to it. Its bad enough not being able to gain balance with a thrown weapon, and also not getting any type of aim bonus to improve accuracy. Could just be a bug though.
Sorry when I made this post I thought I was in the 3.0 folders for some reason. Training LT in 3.0 seems to get me hit more for some reason, but of course with the random hits it could just be coincidence like I said before.
Sorry when I made this post I thought I was in the 3.0 folders for some reason. Training LT in 3.0 seems to get me hit more for some reason, but of course with the random hits it could just be coincidence like I said before.
CRAVYD
Re: Thrown debuffing defenses?
01/01/2013 05:37 PM CST
Are you actually killing stuff at a decent rate when training LT? If you're training melee or TM, you should be killing stuff rather rapidly as a WM, so you're normally not facing 4 critters for long periods of time. If you're not killing fast enough with LT, it could be an MO issue.
BEVERAGEK
Re: Thrown debuffing defenses?
01/01/2013 05:42 PM CST
Oh if this is in regard to 3.0, it may be that each time you're retreating you're applying a defensive penalty to yourself(I'm actually not sure if RETREAT only causes an offense penalty or if it's offense+defense penalty), and after doing it for so long you reach a huge penalty because it keeps stacking up.
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
AIM3
Re: Thrown debuffing defenses?
01/01/2013 05:55 PM CST
Sorry, by parry I meant that's my last performed maneuver, it's just what I use to make sure I'm not trying to defend with sweep being my last move.
It's not a problem with MO, I can dance with 4 until the cows come home if I'm just training ME or targeted.
This was all in prime. I talked to a GM and he said to try to duplicate it on 3.0. I'm not sure it will still be applicable because I lock much faster than it takes for the debuff to stack high enough but I turned off my EXP checker and just did it for what I assumed was the same amount of time it took to lock it in prime.
Same thing. I left the room (does the retreat debuff leave if you leave the room and go to a different monster?) and engaged with just one critter (which I was dodging just fine against prior to the training) and got slapped around.
I'm afraid I know very little about test realm combat so this might be some other mechanic that's just duplicating the effect and is entirely intended.
If it makes a difference, I'm using a FOS with RS applied to it to train HT. That was one of the first questions the GM asked.
Avrii says, "I'll train while youre not on and other than that you'll never see me."
You say, "Maybe y'should start wif that."
It's not a problem with MO, I can dance with 4 until the cows come home if I'm just training ME or targeted.
This was all in prime. I talked to a GM and he said to try to duplicate it on 3.0. I'm not sure it will still be applicable because I lock much faster than it takes for the debuff to stack high enough but I turned off my EXP checker and just did it for what I assumed was the same amount of time it took to lock it in prime.
Same thing. I left the room (does the retreat debuff leave if you leave the room and go to a different monster?) and engaged with just one critter (which I was dodging just fine against prior to the training) and got slapped around.
I'm afraid I know very little about test realm combat so this might be some other mechanic that's just duplicating the effect and is entirely intended.
If it makes a difference, I'm using a FOS with RS applied to it to train HT. That was one of the first questions the GM asked.
Avrii says, "I'll train while youre not on and other than that you'll never see me."
You say, "Maybe y'should start wif that."
AIM3
Re: Thrown debuffing defenses?
01/01/2013 06:40 PM CST
Just to restate the problem in the interest is clarity.
When I hunt in Prime at level I can dance with 4 of the critters I hunt pretty much indefinitely without getting hit. When I train HT it starts out with those same results but after throwing enough HT to get to 15/34 training done (thereabouts, and like clockwork) I start to take light hits. If I retreat to avoid them and keep throwing, eventually they get to melee via web and one or two shot me.
My stance during the entirety of training:
You are currently using 100% of your evasion skill.
You are currently using 89% of your shield block skill.
You are currently using 0% of your weapon parry skill.
You are attacking with 100% of your offensive skill.
Last Combat Maneuver: parry
I use a max cast FOS with reinforce stone cast on it as my weapon of choice. My buffs remain up and active the entire time, my armor is in decent repair and I haven't noticed this problem with LT training on my thief.
In the test realm I locked my HT before the debuff was noticeable. With only one dillo at melee I didn't get hit, I retreated and threw my FOS far past my Mind Lock point, left the room, got to melee with a single dillo and got hit repeatedly though nothing as hard as what happens in prime.
I'll throw in a bug report. It might just be FOS wasn't updated with the fix...but it seems like it would have come up since then from some other warmie. I don't have access to my vault atm or I'd test it with a throwing hammer. I lose them religiously though.
Avrii says, "I'll train while youre not on and other than that you'll never see me."
You say, "Maybe y'should start wif that."
When I hunt in Prime at level I can dance with 4 of the critters I hunt pretty much indefinitely without getting hit. When I train HT it starts out with those same results but after throwing enough HT to get to 15/34 training done (thereabouts, and like clockwork) I start to take light hits. If I retreat to avoid them and keep throwing, eventually they get to melee via web and one or two shot me.
My stance during the entirety of training:
You are currently using 100% of your evasion skill.
You are currently using 89% of your shield block skill.
You are currently using 0% of your weapon parry skill.
You are attacking with 100% of your offensive skill.
Last Combat Maneuver: parry
I use a max cast FOS with reinforce stone cast on it as my weapon of choice. My buffs remain up and active the entire time, my armor is in decent repair and I haven't noticed this problem with LT training on my thief.
In the test realm I locked my HT before the debuff was noticeable. With only one dillo at melee I didn't get hit, I retreated and threw my FOS far past my Mind Lock point, left the room, got to melee with a single dillo and got hit repeatedly though nothing as hard as what happens in prime.
I'll throw in a bug report. It might just be FOS wasn't updated with the fix...but it seems like it would have come up since then from some other warmie. I don't have access to my vault atm or I'd test it with a throwing hammer. I lose them religiously though.
Avrii says, "I'll train while youre not on and other than that you'll never see me."
You say, "Maybe y'should start wif that."
AIM3
Re: Thrown debuffing defenses?
01/01/2013 07:01 PM CST
Triple post.
I wanted to see if my encumbrance was growing so I kept checking with enc...the issue went away. I fully locked it from 7/34 to 34/34 without a single hit.
Avrii says, "I'll train while youre not on and other than that you'll never see me."
You say, "Maybe y'should start wif that."
I wanted to see if my encumbrance was growing so I kept checking with enc...the issue went away. I fully locked it from 7/34 to 34/34 without a single hit.
Avrii says, "I'll train while youre not on and other than that you'll never see me."
You say, "Maybe y'should start wif that."
GRIM45
Re: Thrown debuffing defenses?
01/01/2013 07:59 PM CST
>>I wanted to see if my encumbrance was growing so I kept checking with enc...the issue went away. I fully locked it from 7/34 to 34/34 without a single hit.
Glad you tested; I never removed the enc from my script, so I was about to comment it out to test. Now I don't have to test.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
Glad you tested; I never removed the enc from my script, so I was about to comment it out to test. Now I don't have to test.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
BEVERAGEK
Re: Thrown debuffing defenses?
01/01/2013 08:02 PM CST
Wait, I thought this bug was fixed?
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
AIM3
Re: Thrown debuffing defenses?
01/01/2013 08:09 PM CST
Is that what fixed the problem before? Enc checking I mean? It didn't rise at all the whole time.
Avrii says, "I'll train while youre not on and other than that you'll never see me."
You say, "Maybe y'should start wif that."
Avrii says, "I'll train while youre not on and other than that you'll never see me."
You say, "Maybe y'should start wif that."
BEVERAGEK
Re: Thrown debuffing defenses?
01/01/2013 08:16 PM CST
>>Is that what fixed the problem before? Enc checking I mean?
Yes, this was the only way to eliminate the phantom encumbrance penalty that the bug caused when using thrown weapons originally. Kodius had fixed it a while back though I thought...
Come to think of it, I noticed something else that Kodius fixed having been reverted back to not-fixed just recently, and that's called shots. Originally called shots weren't working in test and Kodius fixed it, but now they're not again. I also noticed that the plaza in Crossings is missing -- I wonder if they reverted back or something and some of the fixes got reverted back as well.
We should probably move this over to the 3.0 folders since it has to do with 3.0 and the test instance -- I'll crosspost.
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
Yes, this was the only way to eliminate the phantom encumbrance penalty that the bug caused when using thrown weapons originally. Kodius had fixed it a while back though I thought...
Come to think of it, I noticed something else that Kodius fixed having been reverted back to not-fixed just recently, and that's called shots. Originally called shots weren't working in test and Kodius fixed it, but now they're not again. I also noticed that the plaza in Crossings is missing -- I wonder if they reverted back or something and some of the fixes got reverted back as well.
We should probably move this over to the 3.0 folders since it has to do with 3.0 and the test instance -- I'll crosspost.
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
GRIM45
Re: Thrown debuffing defenses?
01/01/2013 08:34 PM CST
>>We should probably move this over to the 3.0 folders since it has to do with 3.0 and the test instance -- I'll crosspost.
Um, wat?
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
Um, wat?
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
GAMMERGIRL151
Re: Thrown debuffing defenses?
01/01/2013 09:15 PM CST
>>We should probably move this over to the 3.0 folders since it has to do with 3.0 and the test instance -- I'll crosspost.
>>>Um, wat?
Broken in Prime and in Test = bad potato. If it's still broken in 3.0 they need to know about it on 3.0 boards. Because reasons.
You've reached the uninformative help match I haven't written yet.
http://i.imgur.com/fBq8R.jpg
>>>Um, wat?
Broken in Prime and in Test = bad potato. If it's still broken in 3.0 they need to know about it on 3.0 boards. Because reasons.
You've reached the uninformative help match I haven't written yet.
http://i.imgur.com/fBq8R.jpg
GRIM45
Re: Thrown debuffing defenses?
01/01/2013 09:24 PM CST
>>Broken in Prime and in Test = bad potato. If it's still broken in 3.0 they need to know about it on 3.0 boards. Because reasons.
Right. Kind of. But that wasn't what I was talking about. It was more that Leilond seems confused and seems to think the bug being reported is in test, not in prime. (Not discounting that it it also in in test, but that the player is talking about prime. Not test.)
Regarding Prime vs Test I think they would know, if they find a bug in Prime, they should probably look at the code in 3.0 as well. That's just basic environment management.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
Right. Kind of. But that wasn't what I was talking about. It was more that Leilond seems confused and seems to think the bug being reported is in test, not in prime. (Not discounting that it it also in in test, but that the player is talking about prime. Not test.)
Regarding Prime vs Test I think they would know, if they find a bug in Prime, they should probably look at the code in 3.0 as well. That's just basic environment management.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
USAF-SPARKY
Re: Thrown debuffing defenses?
01/01/2013 09:49 PM CST
I never saw the encumbrance issue on weight with thrown items fixed. I've always had to check info or encumbrance to get the added weight fixed when using thrown weapons. Throwing the weapon does not subtract the weapons weight from your encumbrance, but picking it up does add to it. Do it enough times and you become overburdened. Strangely enough, traders putting stuff on their tables to sell does the same thing. The item's weight does not get subtracted when SELL <item> FOR ????? is used. Conversely, when SHOP REMOVE <item> is used, the weight is not added to encumbrance. Noticed this with large ingots of heavy metals. Using INFO or ENC forces a recalculation of weight. I wonder how many other actions that can change the weight a person holds doesn't recalculate?
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Thrown debuffing defenses?
01/04/2013 08:15 AM CST
I'm not having any issues in Prime, haven't trained HT (my primary weapon) much in test.
AIM3
Re: Thrown debuffing defenses?
01/05/2013 09:28 PM CST
I've been asking around, I think it might be tied to training HT with a fist of stone.
Just throw one over and over without doing info or enc with an at-level critter. (have favors)
Avrii says, "I'll train while youre not on and other than that you'll never see me."
You say, "Maybe y'should start wif that."
Just throw one over and over without doing info or enc with an at-level critter. (have favors)
Avrii says, "I'll train while youre not on and other than that you'll never see me."
You say, "Maybe y'should start wif that."
