So is there a variable that I am missing with parry? Does it defend better than shield in any circumstances? Maybe against 1 opponent from weapon attacks?
Or is it just not near as good as shield in all cases? In which case I don't regret learning even if its just for Time development points.
I train parry equally with shield(at a few points I had more parry than shield), I just don't feel safe in parry stance like I do in shield.
Parry stance even with a good balanced weapon and no hindrance, doesn't even come close to any shield, with armor hindrance with both at identical ranks in skill.
I am just curious if parry is going to be tweaked further than the latest change.
VERATHOR
NJP
Re: The uses of Parry
01/24/2009 07:33 AM CST
Well, as ranks get higher it seems to even out, but I think parry still needs some love in the lower to mid ranks.
For example: As a character with low (mid 50's), yet equal ranks in both skills, my character's (admittedly capped player-made) arm-worn buckler (small shield) still grossly outperforms his ability to parry with an excellently balanced tago (LE, his primary weapon as a Barbarian, also mid 50's), even in multiple opponent situations, where parry is supposed to be superior. The character's agility (parry modifier) is also double his amount of strength (shield modifier).
I don't think the latest parry changes were intended to fix everything about the skill, though they did make things a lot friendlier for the extremely little characters (ie. rat hunting levels).
Denstimar Dustyfoot
Idon Raider - www.idonraiders.com
"It's not about making money, it's about taking money; destroying the status quo because the status is not quo." - Dr. Horrible
For example: As a character with low (mid 50's), yet equal ranks in both skills, my character's (admittedly capped player-made) arm-worn buckler (small shield) still grossly outperforms his ability to parry with an excellently balanced tago (LE, his primary weapon as a Barbarian, also mid 50's), even in multiple opponent situations, where parry is supposed to be superior. The character's agility (parry modifier) is also double his amount of strength (shield modifier).
I don't think the latest parry changes were intended to fix everything about the skill, though they did make things a lot friendlier for the extremely little characters (ie. rat hunting levels).
Denstimar Dustyfoot
Idon Raider - www.idonraiders.com
"It's not about making money, it's about taking money; destroying the status quo because the status is not quo." - Dr. Horrible
GRIM45
Re: The uses of Parry
01/24/2009 07:55 AM CST
Parry is supposed to be (According to GM Post) the least penalized defense by Multi Opp situations.
Infact, here are the pros/cons for the defenses that I can remember. Feel free to add/correct any, as this is off the top of my head, from what I remember, which could be wrong.
Evasion:
Pro: Only defense that reduces OF of an attack, Works against ranged, works against DFA
Con: Most penalized by Multi Opp
Parry:
Pro: Least Penalized by Multi Opp
Con: Won't work on ranged attacks, won't work on DFA
Shield:
Pro: Least Penalized by disablers (sleep, stunned etc), works on ranged
Con: Won't work on DFA
-TG, TG, & GL, et al.
Infact, here are the pros/cons for the defenses that I can remember. Feel free to add/correct any, as this is off the top of my head, from what I remember, which could be wrong.
Evasion:
Pro: Only defense that reduces OF of an attack, Works against ranged, works against DFA
Con: Most penalized by Multi Opp
Parry:
Pro: Least Penalized by Multi Opp
Con: Won't work on ranged attacks, won't work on DFA
Shield:
Pro: Least Penalized by disablers (sleep, stunned etc), works on ranged
Con: Won't work on DFA
-TG, TG, & GL, et al.
TEQ
Re: The uses of Parry
01/24/2009 11:23 AM CST
>I don't think the latest parry changes were intended to fix everything about the skill, though they did make things a lot friendlier for the extremely little characters (ie. rat hunting levels).
I started up a new character last week and she got the snot beat out of her by rats. Repeatedly. It was just sad--and hilarious. Then I bought a shield and didn't get hit again. My conclusion was that the best way to fix parry at lower levels for little characters is to just send all new characters out of the generator already equipped with a shield and in a shield stance. That way people who really are new to the game will have a chance to learn what parry actually is before it gets them killed.
I started up a new character last week and she got the snot beat out of her by rats. Repeatedly. It was just sad--and hilarious. Then I bought a shield and didn't get hit again. My conclusion was that the best way to fix parry at lower levels for little characters is to just send all new characters out of the generator already equipped with a shield and in a shield stance. That way people who really are new to the game will have a chance to learn what parry actually is before it gets them killed.
VERATHOR
Re: The uses of Parry
01/24/2009 04:12 PM CST
I still believe there is not a single situation in which parry will out perform shield. Certainly not in a swarm.
I don't even trust parry versus opponents who appraise as an easy opponent, As I know from experience 2 or 3 easy opponents can quite easily get through evasion and parry whereas evasion and shield I can stand in a swarm of 7+ easy opponents and wont get hit.
Evasion is my highest defense followed closely by multi, shield and parry in that order. All of which are in the experienced dilettante and proficient dilettante range.
And I've tested several variations of stance using all three at once. And they never work half as good as Evasion 100%, with the rest into parry or shield.
You cant do them at the same time. And when Shield > parry by such a huge amount it doesn't make any sense to train parry for purpose other than Time development points.
Parry is one of, if not the most dangerous skill to train in the game, offers rather low defense in comparison to shield and gives the same amount of TDP as vocals you learn from humming.
I just am curious if there is future combat changes planned to affect parry performance, or will it remain nothing more than a TDP skill.
NJP
Re: The uses of Parry
01/24/2009 04:17 PM CST
>>My conclusion was that the best way to fix parry at lower levels for little characters is to just send all new characters out of the generator already equipped with a shield and in a shield stance. That way people who really are new to the game will have a chance to learn what parry actually is before it gets them killed.
Yeah, this is pretty symptomatic of the whole combat system in DR. It was intentionally detailed and complex by most MUD standards when the game was created, and it's steadily felt the effects of feature creep over the years. At this point I'm surprised if any truly new people get over the hurdle of effectively (let alone efficiently) maneuvering their way into and through DR combat.
That's not a snark against any of the GMs who've worked on it over the years, or who work on it now. Honestly though, if I had to tackle combat here from a true newbie perspective, I don't think I'd have the discipline or fortitude it takes, even with someone holding my hand.
Denstimar Dustyfoot
Idon Raider - www.idonraiders.com
"It's not about making money, it's about taking money; destroying the status quo because the status is not quo." - Dr. Horrible
Yeah, this is pretty symptomatic of the whole combat system in DR. It was intentionally detailed and complex by most MUD standards when the game was created, and it's steadily felt the effects of feature creep over the years. At this point I'm surprised if any truly new people get over the hurdle of effectively (let alone efficiently) maneuvering their way into and through DR combat.
That's not a snark against any of the GMs who've worked on it over the years, or who work on it now. Honestly though, if I had to tackle combat here from a true newbie perspective, I don't think I'd have the discipline or fortitude it takes, even with someone holding my hand.
Denstimar Dustyfoot
Idon Raider - www.idonraiders.com
"It's not about making money, it's about taking money; destroying the status quo because the status is not quo." - Dr. Horrible
TEQ
Re: The uses of Parry
01/24/2009 04:42 PM CST
>>Yeah, this is pretty symptomatic of the whole combat system in DR. It was intentionally detailed and complex by most MUD standards when the game was created, and it's steadily felt the effects of feature creep over the years. At this point I'm surprised if any truly new people get over the hurdle of effectively (let alone efficiently) maneuvering their way into and through DR combat.<<
Yep, to all of that. And the complexity of combat one of the things I like most about the game--actually it's the main reason why no other MUD has ever compared, for me. I'm definitely not a new player--I orginally started playing about a week before AOL went to unlimited--I just take long vacations from the game. Last week when I started the new character, if I had actually been new to the game I wouldn't have stuck around for very long...it was funny because I'm familiar with the game. If I hadn't been familiar with the game though, it wouldn't have been fun at all. I doubt I'd have stuck around long enough to learn--in fact, I know that I wouldn't have, because on the night I first tried DR "back in the day," it was actually the fourth new game I'd tried that same night...and the only one I ever returned to.
Yep, to all of that. And the complexity of combat one of the things I like most about the game--actually it's the main reason why no other MUD has ever compared, for me. I'm definitely not a new player--I orginally started playing about a week before AOL went to unlimited--I just take long vacations from the game. Last week when I started the new character, if I had actually been new to the game I wouldn't have stuck around for very long...it was funny because I'm familiar with the game. If I hadn't been familiar with the game though, it wouldn't have been fun at all. I doubt I'd have stuck around long enough to learn--in fact, I know that I wouldn't have, because on the night I first tried DR "back in the day," it was actually the fourth new game I'd tried that same night...and the only one I ever returned to.
HEATHCHRISTINE
Re: The uses of Parry
01/24/2009 06:43 PM CST
>At this point I'm surprised if any truly new people get over the hurdle of effectively (let alone efficiently) maneuvering their way into and through DR combat.
Convinced a friend of mine from work to try it out. He's done a bunch of fantasty RP stuff in the past so he's good with the terminology and ideas, but wow, trying to remember everything to make sure he needs to know is tough. Everything from catalogues at shop to facing a new creature. As he said DR has a "very large learning curve". And this thread reminds me, I should make sure he is using a shield.
Jalika
Moving carefully, you slip your hand into Ragran's pockets and carefully grab a platinum.
Roundtime: 2 sec.
Convinced a friend of mine from work to try it out. He's done a bunch of fantasty RP stuff in the past so he's good with the terminology and ideas, but wow, trying to remember everything to make sure he needs to know is tough. Everything from catalogues at shop to facing a new creature. As he said DR has a "very large learning curve". And this thread reminds me, I should make sure he is using a shield.
Jalika
Moving carefully, you slip your hand into Ragran's pockets and carefully grab a platinum.
Roundtime: 2 sec.
RIDDLYN069
Re: The uses of Parry
01/24/2009 11:07 PM CST
This whole thing seems rather odd to me, maybe I'm an anomaly. My parry is higher than both my evasion and shield. I hunt gryphons for circle and just using shield I would get hurt quick, parry and quite fine. My stance has me using all three defenses, in gryphons I usually do 100% evasion, 75% parry, 9% shield and almost never die at melee. and by higher I don't mean by a whole lot there's maybe a 20 rank difference between parry and the other two defenses.
Oderint Dum Metuant
Oderint Dum Metuant
MELLIONM6
Re: The uses of Parry
02/12/2009 05:49 PM CST
Personally, I'd always just figured shield was what you used because you wanted to be able to defend yourself, and parry was something you trained because the guild said you had to if you wanted to advance.
That said, I've learned to use barbarian abilities, HP armor, and stamina as my defenses. I am way under-qualified (180 shield, parry 161, evasion roughly 120, 17 reflex and 155 multi), but I hunt baby and fledgling gryphons for circle, and can usually stand in constant combat for 60-90 minutes before leaving because of a bleeder. My weapon skills outclass my defenses considerably, and I have a great deal of strength and stamina as compared to most 40th circle characters.
My suggestion: for the sake of having fun playing the game, load your offenses and stamina, wear heavy, protective armor, and up-hunt. Lots more fun IMO (and I imagine most of us play the game for the sake of having fun, thus it is a relevant argument) than sitting in rats until 20 shield and evasion, then moving to goblins until you have 40, moving to eels and sitting until...done that with countless characters before...can't stand it.
That said, I've learned to use barbarian abilities, HP armor, and stamina as my defenses. I am way under-qualified (180 shield, parry 161, evasion roughly 120, 17 reflex and 155 multi), but I hunt baby and fledgling gryphons for circle, and can usually stand in constant combat for 60-90 minutes before leaving because of a bleeder. My weapon skills outclass my defenses considerably, and I have a great deal of strength and stamina as compared to most 40th circle characters.
My suggestion: for the sake of having fun playing the game, load your offenses and stamina, wear heavy, protective armor, and up-hunt. Lots more fun IMO (and I imagine most of us play the game for the sake of having fun, thus it is a relevant argument) than sitting in rats until 20 shield and evasion, then moving to goblins until you have 40, moving to eels and sitting until...done that with countless characters before...can't stand it.
DGUTHRIE2
Re: The uses of Parry
02/12/2009 09:08 PM CST
That's just your view of combat. I'm completely the opposite. My defenses far outclass my offenses. I don't "underhunt" by any means, but while you're out in combat for 60 minutes getting wounded and smashed up, I'm wearing leather main body armor, and HC head/hands. I'm a gnome so I have next to nothing in strength and stamina, but lots of agility and reflex and the only times I've had a bleeder have been because of open rolls.
Your suggestion is noted, but doesn't sound like a lot of fun to me. My playing style is completely different, and overhunting is just plain stupid IMO.
49th circle gnome barbarian
Shield Usage: 282 88% bewildered
Leather Armor: 259 07% bewildered
Heavy Chain: 271 74% bewildering
Parry Ability: 294 89% perplexed
Multi Opponent: 286 62% perplexed
Heavy Edged: 247 47% very muddled
Twohanded Edged: 258 37% perplexed
Evasion: 280 69% bewildered
Skinning: 263 77% bewildering
Appraisal: 345 91% dazed
Strength : 22
Reflex : 47
Agility : 39
Charisma : 32
Discipline : 32
Wisdom : 32
Intelligence : 47
Stamina : 24
Yes, this is in TF, but I'm also working the same model in prime with tremendous success... and fun.
________________________________________
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
- Albert Einstein
Your suggestion is noted, but doesn't sound like a lot of fun to me. My playing style is completely different, and overhunting is just plain stupid IMO.
49th circle gnome barbarian
Shield Usage: 282 88% bewildered
Leather Armor: 259 07% bewildered
Heavy Chain: 271 74% bewildering
Parry Ability: 294 89% perplexed
Multi Opponent: 286 62% perplexed
Heavy Edged: 247 47% very muddled
Twohanded Edged: 258 37% perplexed
Evasion: 280 69% bewildered
Skinning: 263 77% bewildering
Appraisal: 345 91% dazed
Strength : 22
Reflex : 47
Agility : 39
Charisma : 32
Discipline : 32
Wisdom : 32
Intelligence : 47
Stamina : 24
Yes, this is in TF, but I'm also working the same model in prime with tremendous success... and fun.
________________________________________
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
- Albert Einstein
MELLIONM6
Re: The uses of Parry
02/12/2009 11:06 PM CST
Well, I could move down to fendryads again, or even work defenses and armor in thugs where I'm practically invincible, but I don't generally find it fun (or terribly rewarding in cash or exp) to hunt things that are no challenge.
That said, I don't tend to enjoy PvP much, and this set up is generally poor for that purpose, though it does optimize the your berserks. But by all means, to each his own, I believe I put an IMO in my statement somewhere for just that reason.
That said, I don't tend to enjoy PvP much, and this set up is generally poor for that purpose, though it does optimize the your berserks. But by all means, to each his own, I believe I put an IMO in my statement somewhere for just that reason.
MACDOUGALLW3
Re: The uses of Parry
03/17/2009 06:48 PM CDT
When you parry with a bladed weapon it should have a chance to do damage to the attacker, most blunt weapons too really for that mater. You can do so many things with parry such as a chance to counter. I mean if changes will be made too it why not make it all it can be? In real life that's not far fetched at all. With a smaller weapon like a blade if I had a weapon being swung at me I would parry the wrist, not the weapon. Just some ideas I guess.
MELLIONM6
Re: The uses of Parry
03/17/2009 09:27 PM CDT
>>With a smaller weapon like a blade if I had a weapon being swung at me I would parry the wrist, not the weapon.
1 issue with this idea...parrying at the wrist doesn't stop the momentum of the incoming weapon very well. Probably works nice for those who take a broad cut at you with rapier (which makes no sense at all), but would do almost nothing to even slow a sweeping longsword down. End result--I have a bloody wrist and some pain, you have a missing face.
Despite this, I agree that parry should do something, or that specialized parry weapons should be available, such at the main-gauche and sword-breaker (real name, doesn't break swords). These LEFT-HANDED parry weapons (think shield, but with a weapon instead) could cause brief additional RT, or even disarm the enemy fairly easily (also suggested in lores forum). Further, an effective parry can, in reality, unbalance an opponent and give the defender open position (effecting position and balance). If such is implemented, shield remains an excellent pure defense, parry becomes an attacker's defense.
-Croegar
"If somebody is alert enough to start popping AEs because they think you're there, you've failed at a critical aspect of stealth..."
-Z
1 issue with this idea...parrying at the wrist doesn't stop the momentum of the incoming weapon very well. Probably works nice for those who take a broad cut at you with rapier (which makes no sense at all), but would do almost nothing to even slow a sweeping longsword down. End result--I have a bloody wrist and some pain, you have a missing face.
Despite this, I agree that parry should do something, or that specialized parry weapons should be available, such at the main-gauche and sword-breaker (real name, doesn't break swords). These LEFT-HANDED parry weapons (think shield, but with a weapon instead) could cause brief additional RT, or even disarm the enemy fairly easily (also suggested in lores forum). Further, an effective parry can, in reality, unbalance an opponent and give the defender open position (effecting position and balance). If such is implemented, shield remains an excellent pure defense, parry becomes an attacker's defense.
-Croegar
"If somebody is alert enough to start popping AEs because they think you're there, you've failed at a critical aspect of stealth..."
-Z
MACDOUGALLW3
Re: The uses of Parry
03/17/2009 09:59 PM CDT
I agree that's how I see parry. And also by going down this path with parry it could maybe open more doors to fixing things like LE/LB. The technique's used with smaller melee weapons are just fantastic. If you go look up weapons such as the Karambit and styles like modern arnis, kali, silat, and a host of others you will start to see how small blades/sticks/hooks and even whips are flashy fantastic vicious weapons that Dragonrealms could really go far with. I suggest looking up 15 years of kali on youtube. Ray dionaldo is small weapons genius. It will change how you view small weapons and it will show exactly what I am trying to go for with my charecter.
ANATTAJY
Re: The uses of Parry
03/17/2009 10:19 PM CDT
That would be awesome, but because a weapon called a karambit arleady exists in game, and it's inexplicably a 2HE, I really have my doubts. Though, Dart and Oolan seem fairly amazing, so at least there's hope.
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SEND[Zeyurn] Stop doing that.
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SEND[Zeyurn] Stop doing that.
