Alright I was under the impression that parry was the best way to go vs melee attackers and shield was the best way to go vs ranged. I'm probably wrong and if so please explain it to me.
I'm a pretty low level thief, I've been training shield up from 0 for the past week and since its an armor its been rather annoying. Then I started thinking... wait a minute, parry is considered a weapon and its better for melee anyway so why even bother?! So I went to rams to test it out and I brought out my jambiya to parry. The ram stunned me on the first attack and dropped me to 34% vitality after the second attack! Rams NEVER did that to me with my shield! And the crazy thing is, shield = 28 ranks, parry = 45 ranks.
I have 54 in evasion and the weapon I'm parrying with is a Jambiya LE the shield is an azure-scaled shield dunno if this matters but there's all the facts. Tell me what happened here please
15897
JUASON
Re: Shield vs parry in melee
10/19/2007 12:42 AM CDT
I've noticed jambiyas make for very poor parrying weapons. I suspect that all Light Edged weapons have a penalty to parry. For dancing I tend to use ilteshes, which are reasonably balanced (weapon balance affects parry skill). If you can get one of the old Shard fest ones it'll even be well constructed - nothing will ever damage it.
I have to agree that parry is somewhat weak these days. My testing has shown that shields of any size are always better. I still favor parry with my barb/warrior mage because its a higher skillset than shield, and because the defensive spells I have favor parry over shield...
Evasion was the only defense that was reduced in effectiveness (when it lost its 2x reflex bonus) but it sure feels like parry lost something as well. That's my take on it :P
http://www.drplat.com - The DragonRealms Platinum Community Website. Be sure to vote DragonRealms as your #1 MUD!
I have to agree that parry is somewhat weak these days. My testing has shown that shields of any size are always better. I still favor parry with my barb/warrior mage because its a higher skillset than shield, and because the defensive spells I have favor parry over shield...
Evasion was the only defense that was reduced in effectiveness (when it lost its 2x reflex bonus) but it sure feels like parry lost something as well. That's my take on it :P
http://www.drplat.com - The DragonRealms Platinum Community Website. Be sure to vote DragonRealms as your #1 MUD!
NIKPACK
Re: Shield vs parry in melee
10/19/2007 04:15 AM CDT
<<Evasion was the only defense that was reduced in effectiveness (when it lost its 2x reflex bonus) but it sure feels like parry lost something as well. That's my take on it :P
Purely anecdotal but me too.
Nikpack
player of Celeiros
-At the cleric meeting-
DARTENIAN says, "I think we all need to get down and pray for bit-based experience."
>DARTENIAN clears his throat.
Purely anecdotal but me too.
Nikpack
player of Celeiros
-At the cleric meeting-
DARTENIAN says, "I think we all need to get down and pray for bit-based experience."
>DARTENIAN clears his throat.
DIVINEWIND
Re: Shield vs parry in melee
10/19/2007 07:15 AM CDT
>>I've noticed jambiyas make for very poor parrying weapons. I suspect that all Light Edged weapons have a penalty to parry.
I don't know if all have them, but as far as LE's go if I were to train parry with one I'd either use a short sword or a jambiya.
Avoid parrying with a katar at all costs.
-Galren Moonskin
!>You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde screaming in barbaric approval of your deeds.
I don't know if all have them, but as far as LE's go if I were to train parry with one I'd either use a short sword or a jambiya.
Avoid parrying with a katar at all costs.
-Galren Moonskin
!>You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde screaming in barbaric approval of your deeds.
SAUVA
Re: Shield vs parry in melee
10/19/2007 07:54 AM CDT
I've never encounter a situation where parry was superior to shield. However the GMs have said parry is supposed to be better at melee.
>I suspect that all Light Edged weapons have a penalty to parry.
There was a GM post stating that weapon class did not affect parry ability. Only balance of the weapon (and of course things on the player side of the equation). Now to find that post.... ugh.
~Ranger Hanryu, Sword of House Calibanor
Keeper of the CEC
http://www.kynevon.info/CombatEquipmentCompendium.xls
>I suspect that all Light Edged weapons have a penalty to parry.
There was a GM post stating that weapon class did not affect parry ability. Only balance of the weapon (and of course things on the player side of the equation). Now to find that post.... ugh.
~Ranger Hanryu, Sword of House Calibanor
Keeper of the CEC
http://www.kynevon.info/CombatEquipmentCompendium.xls
TFPALADIN
Re: Shield vs parry in melee
10/19/2007 09:17 AM CDT
I think parry is more worthless than shield. The only reason I dont allocate more evasion points than parry is because I would end up dodging everything and not learn armor...
Thanks
Thanks
RX4PAIN
Re: Shield vs parry in melee
10/19/2007 02:43 PM CDT
I find parry to be alot better vs meelee than shield. I tend to avoid using shield at meelee range.
GRATEFULMAGE
Re: Shield vs parry in melee
10/19/2007 02:46 PM CDT
To address the original post:
Your parry and evasion aren't that much higher than your shield. I would definitely just take the time to get your shield skill even, and then head out from there. Evasion will begin edging out again as it's both the first defense checked and also a primary skill. I'd go 100 shield/parry, 80 evasion until you're mostly dodging (this is in each creature range) and then drop down the evasion stance (you'll have to play with the exact number) and throw it into the other stat. So 100 parry/65 evasion/15 shield.
I was able to keep all three defenses locked that way when vykathi soldiers were teaching my defenses really well. Now I'm trying to get my shield up to parry, as the area I'm hunting in seems conducive to it. Not sure what the point here is, except I'd always try to keep all 3 defenses learnable in your primary hunting area.
Axillus - Halfling Warrior Mage
>You charge your steel-toed footwrap at a musk hog.
Your parry and evasion aren't that much higher than your shield. I would definitely just take the time to get your shield skill even, and then head out from there. Evasion will begin edging out again as it's both the first defense checked and also a primary skill. I'd go 100 shield/parry, 80 evasion until you're mostly dodging (this is in each creature range) and then drop down the evasion stance (you'll have to play with the exact number) and throw it into the other stat. So 100 parry/65 evasion/15 shield.
I was able to keep all three defenses locked that way when vykathi soldiers were teaching my defenses really well. Now I'm trying to get my shield up to parry, as the area I'm hunting in seems conducive to it. Not sure what the point here is, except I'd always try to keep all 3 defenses learnable in your primary hunting area.
Axillus - Halfling Warrior Mage
>You charge your steel-toed footwrap at a musk hog.
BEVERAGEK
Re: Shield vs parry in melee
10/20/2007 10:07 AM CDT
I'm going to throw out a wild guestimate and assume that Parry is to Defense skills as Thrown weapons are to Weapon skills. In other words, the sacrifice of raw performance in exchange for utility and feats in the future.
__
~Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/leilondsootherin.png
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com/bard_planner_v2.xls - Personal Skill-Tracking Bard Spreadsheet
__
~Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/leilondsootherin.png
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com/bard_planner_v2.xls - Personal Skill-Tracking Bard Spreadsheet
15897
Re: Shield vs parry in melee
10/21/2007 03:15 PM CDT
Thanks for the replies, I appreciate each one.
I had hoped to just go pure parry and abandon the idea of using a shield because armor is a tert skill for a thief. But I can't deny that parry seems way under effective at the moment. I'll continue to train it in hopes that it can rival shield some day but as it is now shield is the one size fits all category and parry is the red headed step child it seems.
(no offense to red headed step children)
I had hoped to just go pure parry and abandon the idea of using a shield because armor is a tert skill for a thief. But I can't deny that parry seems way under effective at the moment. I'll continue to train it in hopes that it can rival shield some day but as it is now shield is the one size fits all category and parry is the red headed step child it seems.
(no offense to red headed step children)
ENDOJ5
Re: Shield vs parry in melee
10/21/2007 06:23 PM CDT
Parry is, and has been, a viable secondary defense behind evasion. I've taken my Ranger through the entire combat ladder (including ranged users like black goblins and apes) with no more than 110 ranks of shield.
Obviously, there are situations when shield will trump parry, but there are advantages to parry as well. Face-to-face, shield does seem to be more effective in some situations, but there is nothing preventing you from becoming a successful and effective hunter without training shield.
-Vision et al
Also, I can shoot bees.
Obviously, there are situations when shield will trump parry, but there are advantages to parry as well. Face-to-face, shield does seem to be more effective in some situations, but there is nothing preventing you from becoming a successful and effective hunter without training shield.
-Vision et al
Also, I can shoot bees.
MAJE
Re: Shield vs parry in melee
10/21/2007 11:20 PM CDT
Vision try leveling up a character now. The difference between parry and shield is remarkable. Constant light and good hits 100 evasion/80 parry to rare glancing with 100 evasion/80 shield.
89 parry/shield 92 evasion, lightly hindered in chain/leather mix, 27 reflex, 20 strength. Shield is still better but I'm beginning to see them equal out (I think).
- Maje
89 parry/shield 92 evasion, lightly hindered in chain/leather mix, 27 reflex, 20 strength. Shield is still better but I'm beginning to see them equal out (I think).
- Maje
RWBEZET
Re: Shield vs parry in melee
10/23/2007 03:17 PM CDT
I've also got a 100+ level MM and Thief and a new mid-30's Cleric who have no issues hunting with just parry.
SPYRAUX
Re: Shield vs parry in melee
10/30/2007 01:26 AM CDT
For the longest time I was specifically a evasion/parry fighter. And I found absolutely no problems with it. Both my main weapons were 2 handed, and this pretty much was my only option. It's hard for me to say if parry or shield is more effective, considering the disparity in ranks between these two skills for me. However, I will say that if you choose the evasion/parry route, you won't be inadaquate as a combatant.
However, as Vision stated, there are situations that lend more towards one over the other. Such as the parry/shield versus ranged situation. But that aside, parry is a good defense, as any other with proper skill.
Also, keep in mind that both of these skills are item dependant. If you're using an awesome shield as compared to a crappily balanced sword, of course you will notice a difference in performance even at relatively similar skills.
~Van
However, as Vision stated, there are situations that lend more towards one over the other. Such as the parry/shield versus ranged situation. But that aside, parry is a good defense, as any other with proper skill.
Also, keep in mind that both of these skills are item dependant. If you're using an awesome shield as compared to a crappily balanced sword, of course you will notice a difference in performance even at relatively similar skills.
~Van
DODGERCHRIS
Re: Shield vs parry in melee
04/14/2008 06:00 PM CDT
I just read up on this post while researching my characters poor parrying ability.
I have a barbarian, weapon primary of course. All of my defenses (armors, shield, parry, evasion, multi) are fairly equal and are in the mid to upper 60's. All four edged weapon skills are in the lower 60's. All weapons are forged slicers and are fairly balanced or better. I am insignificantly hindered by a full set of forged LC/HC.
On the shore in reavers, with maximum critters at melee, using stance shield 100, stance evasion 81 I rarely get a glancing shot against me. Using stance parry 100, stance evasion 81, with maximum critters at melee, I quickly get smacked around.
In rock trolls, with 2 at melee, using stance shield 100, stance evasion 81 I rarely get a glancing shot against me. Using stance parry 100, stance evasion 81, with 2 at melee, I quickly get smacked around.
Reavers and rock trolls are both bipedal, weapon using critters. From what I have read these type of critters are supposed to be very good for parry training. So far, it's not happening for me :(. I have tried several different attack sequences with the same result. This occurs whether or not I have a lot of burden or not. Also, I notice that shield will ML extremely fast, while if I sit there and parry against a safe amount of critters it takes an extremely long time to move it to ML, most of the time it doesn't make it there.
I would gladly go on with life using stance shield 100 and survive just fine. The problem is I need 4 ranks (maybe more later) of parry each circle. Dancing with one or two critters for a long, long time will get me the ranks required to circle, but it hinders training weapons, armor, evasion, and multi-op. It seems like it could be a time sink, one that could be eliminated by improving the effectiviness of parry.
One thing left for me to try is to train the heck out of reflex. It is currently 15 which I don't think is too out of line for a circle 14 Kaldar. Before spending all those TDP's on reflex and let my mentals suffer more than they already have does anyone have any advice on this? It is the only thing that is really bugging me about DragonRealms so far this time around :D.
Thanks.
"If the rule you followed brought you to this, of what use was the rule?"
I have a barbarian, weapon primary of course. All of my defenses (armors, shield, parry, evasion, multi) are fairly equal and are in the mid to upper 60's. All four edged weapon skills are in the lower 60's. All weapons are forged slicers and are fairly balanced or better. I am insignificantly hindered by a full set of forged LC/HC.
On the shore in reavers, with maximum critters at melee, using stance shield 100, stance evasion 81 I rarely get a glancing shot against me. Using stance parry 100, stance evasion 81, with maximum critters at melee, I quickly get smacked around.
In rock trolls, with 2 at melee, using stance shield 100, stance evasion 81 I rarely get a glancing shot against me. Using stance parry 100, stance evasion 81, with 2 at melee, I quickly get smacked around.
Reavers and rock trolls are both bipedal, weapon using critters. From what I have read these type of critters are supposed to be very good for parry training. So far, it's not happening for me :(. I have tried several different attack sequences with the same result. This occurs whether or not I have a lot of burden or not. Also, I notice that shield will ML extremely fast, while if I sit there and parry against a safe amount of critters it takes an extremely long time to move it to ML, most of the time it doesn't make it there.
I would gladly go on with life using stance shield 100 and survive just fine. The problem is I need 4 ranks (maybe more later) of parry each circle. Dancing with one or two critters for a long, long time will get me the ranks required to circle, but it hinders training weapons, armor, evasion, and multi-op. It seems like it could be a time sink, one that could be eliminated by improving the effectiviness of parry.
One thing left for me to try is to train the heck out of reflex. It is currently 15 which I don't think is too out of line for a circle 14 Kaldar. Before spending all those TDP's on reflex and let my mentals suffer more than they already have does anyone have any advice on this? It is the only thing that is really bugging me about DragonRealms so far this time around :D.
Thanks.
"If the rule you followed brought you to this, of what use was the rule?"
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Shield vs parry in melee
04/14/2008 10:14 PM CDT
Try evasion 100 and parry 81.
If you still aren't learning, slowly decrease evasion and increase parry until you start learning.
If you still aren't learning, slowly decrease evasion and increase parry until you start learning.
SAUVA
Re: Shield vs parry in melee
04/15/2008 08:05 AM CDT
Any defense is best learned against unarmed critters. I would suggest you try bone wolves for parry. My barb did great there in the low 60s. When 5 bone wolves decided to snack on him stacking blood and stone made it "safe".
Some stat advice. Get addicted to reflex and do so early. Don't worry to much about mentals. They help, don't get me wrong, but I'd rather have more reflex and survive a fight than more wisdom and end up dead. Learn to love your zerks (if you don't already). That means hunting swarmy things so you can keep killing and refilling that IF pool. In a decently active hunting ground you should be able to stack blood and stone indefinitely. Both those are fantastic boosts at that level. Move to find a kill. If there's 1 critter in a room, kill it. If there's two critters in a room, dance for 4.5 min (depending on your current defensive mind states), then kill them both and move on. 4 blades is good for this method. I used 2 blades 1 blunt and 2 ranged weapons with this method and the training was phenomenal. It made me change the way I train Hanryu (which after 60ish circles, was a chore, but worth it.)
~Hanryu Ves'Shomis
Sword of House Calibanor, Ambassador of the Ilithi Court, Emerald Knight, Keeper of the CEC, ... still a Ranger
http://www.kynevon.info/CombatEquipmentCompendium.xls
Some stat advice. Get addicted to reflex and do so early. Don't worry to much about mentals. They help, don't get me wrong, but I'd rather have more reflex and survive a fight than more wisdom and end up dead. Learn to love your zerks (if you don't already). That means hunting swarmy things so you can keep killing and refilling that IF pool. In a decently active hunting ground you should be able to stack blood and stone indefinitely. Both those are fantastic boosts at that level. Move to find a kill. If there's 1 critter in a room, kill it. If there's two critters in a room, dance for 4.5 min (depending on your current defensive mind states), then kill them both and move on. 4 blades is good for this method. I used 2 blades 1 blunt and 2 ranged weapons with this method and the training was phenomenal. It made me change the way I train Hanryu (which after 60ish circles, was a chore, but worth it.)
~Hanryu Ves'Shomis
Sword of House Calibanor, Ambassador of the Ilithi Court, Emerald Knight, Keeper of the CEC, ... still a Ranger
http://www.kynevon.info/CombatEquipmentCompendium.xls
ALDEN
Re: Shield vs parry in melee
04/15/2008 12:54 PM CDT
Try Evasion 100, Shield 80, Parry 1. Probably won't lock parry quickly, but will probably keep it moving without endangering your health.
"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"
"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"
DODGERCHRIS
Re: Shield vs parry in melee
04/15/2008 01:17 PM CDT
Thanks for both of your replies.
I am in bone wolves now and the parry is moving very nicely, as are all other defensive skills. I was sure I had read posts that stated parry was better taught by weapon weilding critters, however this does not seem to be the case at all.
I am still taking a lot of damage using parry with multiple opponents. Two wolves with stance shield and I hardly get scratched. Two wolves in stance parry and I get hit a lot. I am not sure if this is a problem with parry or MOP or not a problem at all with the system and more a problem with my reflex being 15. I'll train reflex up to match agility and see how it goes.
Thanks again for your advice.
"If the rule you followed brought you to this, of what use was the rule?"
I am in bone wolves now and the parry is moving very nicely, as are all other defensive skills. I was sure I had read posts that stated parry was better taught by weapon weilding critters, however this does not seem to be the case at all.
I am still taking a lot of damage using parry with multiple opponents. Two wolves with stance shield and I hardly get scratched. Two wolves in stance parry and I get hit a lot. I am not sure if this is a problem with parry or MOP or not a problem at all with the system and more a problem with my reflex being 15. I'll train reflex up to match agility and see how it goes.
Thanks again for your advice.
"If the rule you followed brought you to this, of what use was the rule?"
LOFTONM1
Re: Shield vs parry in melee
04/15/2008 03:58 PM CDT
>>I was sure I had read posts that stated parry was better taught by weapon weilding critters, however this does not seem to be the case at all.
Pretty sure that was in regards to evasion, not parry or shield. The latter two seem to lock fast no matter what compared to evasion, with evasion keeping up versus unarmed critters and slowing to a crawl against weapon-wielding foes.
This is definitely the case for bone wolves, at least, though that might change as the relationship between the efficiency curves of the three defenses changes.
J'Lo, I'm a ranger.. I'd believe anything.....
The Manipulation List -- http://symphaena.com/index.html
Pretty sure that was in regards to evasion, not parry or shield. The latter two seem to lock fast no matter what compared to evasion, with evasion keeping up versus unarmed critters and slowing to a crawl against weapon-wielding foes.
This is definitely the case for bone wolves, at least, though that might change as the relationship between the efficiency curves of the three defenses changes.
J'Lo, I'm a ranger.. I'd believe anything.....
The Manipulation List -- http://symphaena.com/index.html
NEELD
Re: Shield vs parry in melee
04/15/2008 10:35 PM CDT
<<I was sure I had read posts that stated parry was better taught by weapon weilding critters, however this does not seem to be the case at all.
The general rule of thumb is that weapon creatures teach offense very well and non-weapon creatures teach defenses very well.
Madigan
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
Arthur Ashe
The general rule of thumb is that weapon creatures teach offense very well and non-weapon creatures teach defenses very well.
Madigan
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
Arthur Ashe
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Shield vs parry in melee
04/16/2008 07:15 AM CDT
<<The general rule of thumb is that weapon creatures teach offense very well and non-weapon creatures teach defenses very well.
Madigan>>
And just to add to Madigan's statement, because its definately true.
The reasons for this:
Natural Critters attack more routinely, and have less\no spells or special abilities that either don't teach at all or slow their rate of attack down. (more attacks in less amount of time)
Critters with weapons and armor. They will normally use atleast 2-3 defenses over a natural critters 1 defense (evasion) Weapon wielders use parry and\or shield, and evasion, making them harder to hit generally and therefore teach more weapon xp. (A solid hit on them will teach more than a solid hit on a natural critter of the same level). They also tend to have more spells and\or special abilities that either don't teach well\at all or slow their attack speed down) I am guessing the fact that they wear armor as well would make them teach better too, but I can't remember if that was actually confirmed or not.
Madigan>>
And just to add to Madigan's statement, because its definately true.
The reasons for this:
Natural Critters attack more routinely, and have less\no spells or special abilities that either don't teach at all or slow their rate of attack down. (more attacks in less amount of time)
Critters with weapons and armor. They will normally use atleast 2-3 defenses over a natural critters 1 defense (evasion) Weapon wielders use parry and\or shield, and evasion, making them harder to hit generally and therefore teach more weapon xp. (A solid hit on them will teach more than a solid hit on a natural critter of the same level). They also tend to have more spells and\or special abilities that either don't teach well\at all or slow their attack speed down) I am guessing the fact that they wear armor as well would make them teach better too, but I can't remember if that was actually confirmed or not.
