Thank you for the update/info :)
~Leilond
http://tinyurl.com/Leilond-Portrait
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!
BEVERAGEK
RANTHIL1
Re: Combat 3.0: Basic Styles
03/07/2012 01:58 PM CST
Couple of questions, but I'll try and keep it down to my primary two.
1) Looking at some of the weapons templates, there are those that have high pierce / slice, and low impact (e.g. bardiche). These weapons (I gather) would be beneficial in the example of facing that vythaki because you can use either the pokey or the cutting bit with equal efficacy. For more lopsided weapons (looking at my wonderful war hammer), the idea is that I'm getting a large impact bonus (take that vythaki!) for a medium weapon at the expense of it faring poorly against that gelatinous ooze.
2) Are critters going to have "armor" like players do? E.g. That vythaki is effectively in plate armor, but this orc is wearing leathers, so we'd have some sort of "visual" clue (e.g. the vythaki has a chitinous shell, the orc reiver is wearing worn leathers)? Or will it be something discernible with enough appraisal?
Overall I'm very excited about these changes!
~Kraggur
DR Armorcrafting 3.0:
http://tinyurl.com/drarmor3
DR Blacksmithing Tools 3.0:
http://www.tinyurl.com/DRBSTools3
DR Crafting Calc:
http://tinyurl.com/DRCraftCalc
1) Looking at some of the weapons templates, there are those that have high pierce / slice, and low impact (e.g. bardiche). These weapons (I gather) would be beneficial in the example of facing that vythaki because you can use either the pokey or the cutting bit with equal efficacy. For more lopsided weapons (looking at my wonderful war hammer), the idea is that I'm getting a large impact bonus (take that vythaki!) for a medium weapon at the expense of it faring poorly against that gelatinous ooze.
2) Are critters going to have "armor" like players do? E.g. That vythaki is effectively in plate armor, but this orc is wearing leathers, so we'd have some sort of "visual" clue (e.g. the vythaki has a chitinous shell, the orc reiver is wearing worn leathers)? Or will it be something discernible with enough appraisal?
Overall I'm very excited about these changes!
~Kraggur
DR Armorcrafting 3.0:
http://tinyurl.com/drarmor3
DR Blacksmithing Tools 3.0:
http://www.tinyurl.com/DRBSTools3
DR Crafting Calc:
http://tinyurl.com/DRCraftCalc
DR-DARTENIAN
Re: Combat 3.0: Basic Styles
03/07/2012 04:20 PM CST
>1) Looking at some of the weapons templates, there are those that have high pierce / slice, and low impact (e.g. bardiche). These weapons (I gather) would be beneficial in the example of facing that vythaki because you can use either the pokey or the cutting bit with equal efficacy. For more lopsided weapons (looking at my wonderful war hammer), the idea is that I'm getting a large impact bonus (take that vythaki!) for a medium weapon at the expense of it faring poorly against that gelatinous ooze.
I don't really see a question in this, but yes, that's basically the idea. Weapons that are equally suited for more than one damage type (slice + puncture being equal, for example) would work just as well with the slice styles or the puncture styles, meaning you can swap styles based on the defenses of your enemy to maximize your effectiveness.
> 2) Are critters going to have "armor" like players do?
They do, at least to some extent. All critters have a "natural" armor -- it can be roughly the same as thin leather for some creatures, or the best plate for others. There really isn't a visual clue for this, although sometimes you will see it turn up in combat messaging -- ie "Your sword glances off its thick grey hide" is showing that their hide is being treated as armor. Some creatures (orcs, for example) do actually wear armor just like players do, and this overrides their natural armor. In most cases, you can see this armor if you LOOK at the creature. I definitely would like to make it possible to get a better idea of what type of armor your enemy has, but that's something for farther down the road.
- GM Dartenian
Though my soul may set in darkness it will rise in perfect light. I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night! - Sarah Williams
I don't really see a question in this, but yes, that's basically the idea. Weapons that are equally suited for more than one damage type (slice + puncture being equal, for example) would work just as well with the slice styles or the puncture styles, meaning you can swap styles based on the defenses of your enemy to maximize your effectiveness.
> 2) Are critters going to have "armor" like players do?
They do, at least to some extent. All critters have a "natural" armor -- it can be roughly the same as thin leather for some creatures, or the best plate for others. There really isn't a visual clue for this, although sometimes you will see it turn up in combat messaging -- ie "Your sword glances off its thick grey hide" is showing that their hide is being treated as armor. Some creatures (orcs, for example) do actually wear armor just like players do, and this overrides their natural armor. In most cases, you can see this armor if you LOOK at the creature. I definitely would like to make it possible to get a better idea of what type of armor your enemy has, but that's something for farther down the road.
- GM Dartenian
Though my soul may set in darkness it will rise in perfect light. I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night! - Sarah Williams
LAMBL
Re: Combat 3.0: Basic Styles
03/07/2012 04:39 PM CST
For creatures wearing actual armor, at least, you can not only see it when you look at them, you can also appraise it while they wear it. Simply APPRAISE <item> ON <creature>. A way to similarly appraise natural armor would certainly be nice.
Thanks,
-Life Sustainer Karthor
Thanks,
-Life Sustainer Karthor
YAMCER
Re: Combat 3.0: Basic Styles
03/07/2012 04:52 PM CST
<<Some creatures (orcs, for example) do actually wear armor just like players do, and this overrides their natural armor.>>
I assume this overrides the natural armor of the body part covered and not "natural armor" as a whole. With your orc example, it wears a hauberk but no helm, is the head area protected by natural armor or no armor?
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
I assume this overrides the natural armor of the body part covered and not "natural armor" as a whole. With your orc example, it wears a hauberk but no helm, is the head area protected by natural armor or no armor?
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
SHADOW7988
Re: Combat 3.0: Basic Styles
03/07/2012 05:11 PM CST
Awesome, thank you for all the replies, thank you for all the work, and of course thank all those people doing work behind the scenes.
_____________________________________
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
_____________________________________
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
POWERHAUS
Re: Combat 3.0: Basic Styles
03/07/2012 05:22 PM CST
so for my tyrium mega greatsword of doom - i'm guessing i'd chop to hack something in half, or bash to bury it under the ground... makes sense
So I'm lazy, and will most likely doing 'attack, attack, attack' into the future... and was wondering if with something that's very devastatin slice and very extreme impact, would I really need to change from slice to swing on slice resistant thing?
I understand it's beneficial, but am I still getting impact out of my slice?
i guess what i'm asking-
when I chop do I get some of the impact, will it knock something over? if i bash will i get some of the slice and have the chance to hack off a limb?
_________________________________
An agonizing pain fills you as you feel your tongue turn to powder in your mouth! Through a haze of uncertainty and loss, you realize that something you just said was very wrong.
So I'm lazy, and will most likely doing 'attack, attack, attack' into the future... and was wondering if with something that's very devastatin slice and very extreme impact, would I really need to change from slice to swing on slice resistant thing?
I understand it's beneficial, but am I still getting impact out of my slice?
i guess what i'm asking-
when I chop do I get some of the impact, will it knock something over? if i bash will i get some of the slice and have the chance to hack off a limb?
_________________________________
An agonizing pain fills you as you feel your tongue turn to powder in your mouth! Through a haze of uncertainty and loss, you realize that something you just said was very wrong.
ALEPH-ONE
Re: Combat 3.0: Basic Styles
03/08/2012 12:30 AM CST
>>I definitely would like to make it possible to get a better idea of what type of armor your enemy has, but that's something for farther down the road.
Hooray! I've always wanted some kind of Appraisal feat that gives you a better idea of your enemy's strengths and weaknesses (e.g., weak vs. ice, strong vs. slicing).
-- Player of Eyuve
Hooray! I've always wanted some kind of Appraisal feat that gives you a better idea of your enemy's strengths and weaknesses (e.g., weak vs. ice, strong vs. slicing).
-- Player of Eyuve
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Combat 3.0: Basic Styles
03/08/2012 01:14 AM CST
>>Hooray! I've always wanted some kind of Appraisal feat that gives you a better idea of your enemy's strengths and weaknesses (e.g., weak vs. ice, strong vs. slicing).
>app Malkien
He is weak to cute Kaldar girls.
>app Malkien
He is weak to cute Kaldar girls.
VAWN
Re: Combat 3.0: Basic Styles
03/08/2012 05:08 AM CST
>>and was wondering if with something that's very devastatin slice and very extreme impact, would I really need to change from slice to swing on slice resistant thing?
And in that vein if thinking, if I just jab, which will be a neutral attack for all types, will it default to the stat with the most damage potential, or will a lesser stat work if something is resistant. If my weapon had does heavy slice damage and somewhat heavy impact damage, will my jab still equate to at least a somewhat heavy attack if the critter is slice resistant?
~The new Gnome~
And in that vein if thinking, if I just jab, which will be a neutral attack for all types, will it default to the stat with the most damage potential, or will a lesser stat work if something is resistant. If my weapon had does heavy slice damage and somewhat heavy impact damage, will my jab still equate to at least a somewhat heavy attack if the critter is slice resistant?
~The new Gnome~
DR-DARTENIAN
Re: Combat 3.0: Basic Styles
03/08/2012 07:06 AM CST
> I assume this overrides the natural armor of the body part covered and not "natural armor" as a whole. With your orc example, it wears a hauberk but no helm, is the head area protected by natural armor or no armor?
Correct.
On top of all this, some creatures do have an inherent resistance to damage that may apply above and beyond armor, or even immunities to specific damage types. These are probably more common than folks think, especially at higher levels.
- GM Dartenian
Though my soul may set in darkness it will rise in perfect light. I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night! - Sarah Williams
Correct.
On top of all this, some creatures do have an inherent resistance to damage that may apply above and beyond armor, or even immunities to specific damage types. These are probably more common than folks think, especially at higher levels.
- GM Dartenian
Though my soul may set in darkness it will rise in perfect light. I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night! - Sarah Williams
DR-DARTENIAN
Re: Combat 3.0: Basic Styles
03/08/2012 07:11 AM CST
> when I chop do I get some of the impact, will it knock something over? if i bash will i get some of the slice and have the chance to hack off a limb?
Yep.
The way these basic attack styles work is that they will favor one damage type over the others -- it's not really that different than the way defenses work, to be honest. You might be stanced for 100 evasion, 60 parry, 20 shield, for example. We're all familiar with this basic approach in DR Combat. A Slice attack might be 100 slice, 60 impact, 20 puncture. A Chop might be more like 120 slice, 50 impact, 10 puncture. This is just a random made-up example, but it should at least illustrate the basic principle involved using a scheme we are already familiar with.
- GM Dartenian
Though my soul may set in darkness it will rise in perfect light. I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night! - Sarah Williams
Yep.
The way these basic attack styles work is that they will favor one damage type over the others -- it's not really that different than the way defenses work, to be honest. You might be stanced for 100 evasion, 60 parry, 20 shield, for example. We're all familiar with this basic approach in DR Combat. A Slice attack might be 100 slice, 60 impact, 20 puncture. A Chop might be more like 120 slice, 50 impact, 10 puncture. This is just a random made-up example, but it should at least illustrate the basic principle involved using a scheme we are already familiar with.
- GM Dartenian
Though my soul may set in darkness it will rise in perfect light. I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night! - Sarah Williams
LHALLFIN
Re: Combat 3.0: Basic Styles
03/08/2012 10:12 AM CST
Currently it really feels like a weapon with 100 slice 60 impact 20 puncture does a ton more damage than 100 slice 20 impact 60 puncture.
I'm too lazy to do any real testing but its just always felt like a weapon with Puncture + impact = More damage, and Slice + impact = More Damage, but a weapon with Puncture + Slice = No extra damage over just each separately.
From a Real life sense that actually makes a ton of sense... but eh.
Long story short... I hope puncture gets some love or maybe the new attacks will help cope with that?
DURATHING
Re: Combat 3.0: Basic Styles
03/08/2012 10:39 AM CST
>Puncture + Slice = No extra damage over just each separately.
I'm a little confused as to what you're asking for.. Slice and puncture are kind of.. opposing damage types? Something that is puncturing is definitely not slicing and vice versa.
One thing I'd love to see: different attack types are biased towards different wound types. Impact causes primarily internal, slice causes primarily external and puncture causes some of each, but more internal than external. I think impact is already biased that way, but I don't think slice and puncture are.
I'm a little confused as to what you're asking for.. Slice and puncture are kind of.. opposing damage types? Something that is puncturing is definitely not slicing and vice versa.
One thing I'd love to see: different attack types are biased towards different wound types. Impact causes primarily internal, slice causes primarily external and puncture causes some of each, but more internal than external. I think impact is already biased that way, but I don't think slice and puncture are.
LHALLFIN
Re: Combat 3.0: Basic Styles
03/08/2012 11:11 AM CST
>>I'm a little confused as to what you're asking for.. Slice and puncture are kind of.. opposing damage types?
So in that statement its implied that impact isn't an opposing damage type?
>>Something that is puncturing is definitely not slicing and vice versa.
I addressed exactly that in my post already. I realize it makes a lot of sense in real life. But this is not real life.
A forged Dao severely out damages a forged Jambiya even for an agility heavy character (which should favor the Jambiya because of its balance) even tho they have similar total damage stats.
What am I asking for?
For puncture weapons to be more viable in both damage output and balance/defence.
Too Much? Maybe. Oh well.
DURATHING
Re: Combat 3.0: Basic Styles
03/08/2012 11:49 AM CST
>So in that statement its implied that impact isn't an opposing damage type?
Correct - impact would be a complimentary damage type to both slice and puncture. Going purely by real-life, I'd expect impact to be a multiplier on puncture, and an additive to slice.
>For puncture weapons to be more viable in both damage output and balance/defence.
That's very fair. I, too, would love to see weapons that actually favor different character builds. This might come closer to fruition with the upcoming armor stuff though. Here's hoping!
Randomly, I'm curious if puncture isn't getting one of the damage bonuses (suitedness or impact) that it should be. Might this be a bug and just not enough people use puncture to have noticed it?
Correct - impact would be a complimentary damage type to both slice and puncture. Going purely by real-life, I'd expect impact to be a multiplier on puncture, and an additive to slice.
>For puncture weapons to be more viable in both damage output and balance/defence.
That's very fair. I, too, would love to see weapons that actually favor different character builds. This might come closer to fruition with the upcoming armor stuff though. Here's hoping!
Randomly, I'm curious if puncture isn't getting one of the damage bonuses (suitedness or impact) that it should be. Might this be a bug and just not enough people use puncture to have noticed it?
DR-DARTENIAN
Re: Combat 3.0: Basic Styles
03/08/2012 02:00 PM CST
> Randomly, I'm curious if puncture isn't getting one of the damage bonuses (suitedness or impact) that it should be. Might this be a bug and just not enough people use puncture to have noticed it?
The accuracy and damage bonuses aren't based on the damage type, but on weapon balance and suitedness for strength. A large part of the problem is that the LIVE attack styles are generally inferior for puncture compared to the other types, even those that favor puncture -- with the notable exception of LUNGE. For example, Slice gives a better bonus to slice damage than Thrust gives to puncture damage in the live instances. This is one of the things I rebalanced with Combat 3.0, and that should help improve the situation quite a bit. In addition, the current combo system puts a lot of the lighter hitting attacks in the piercing chain, which is just another drawback to piercing weapons.
Another difference in Combat 3.0 is that both Balance and Suitability are included on both sides of the offense -- accuracy and damage. Balance provides a bulk of the bonus for accuracy, while Suitability provides a bulk of the bonus for damage, but both will play a secondary role on their non-dominant side. This should help improve weapon performance for those who want to build themselves around a specific "style" of fighting while still preserving a distinct feel for each -- ie fast and agile with well-balanced weapons (accurate!) vs brute strength with well-suited weapons (damaging!).
- GM Dartenian
Though my soul may set in darkness it will rise in perfect light. I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night! - Sarah Williams
The accuracy and damage bonuses aren't based on the damage type, but on weapon balance and suitedness for strength. A large part of the problem is that the LIVE attack styles are generally inferior for puncture compared to the other types, even those that favor puncture -- with the notable exception of LUNGE. For example, Slice gives a better bonus to slice damage than Thrust gives to puncture damage in the live instances. This is one of the things I rebalanced with Combat 3.0, and that should help improve the situation quite a bit. In addition, the current combo system puts a lot of the lighter hitting attacks in the piercing chain, which is just another drawback to piercing weapons.
Another difference in Combat 3.0 is that both Balance and Suitability are included on both sides of the offense -- accuracy and damage. Balance provides a bulk of the bonus for accuracy, while Suitability provides a bulk of the bonus for damage, but both will play a secondary role on their non-dominant side. This should help improve weapon performance for those who want to build themselves around a specific "style" of fighting while still preserving a distinct feel for each -- ie fast and agile with well-balanced weapons (accurate!) vs brute strength with well-suited weapons (damaging!).
- GM Dartenian
Though my soul may set in darkness it will rise in perfect light. I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night! - Sarah Williams
RAIST
Re: Combat 3.0: Basic Styles
03/08/2012 02:09 PM CST
>Another difference in Combat 3.0 is that both Balance and Suitability are included on both sides of the offense -- accuracy and damage. Balance provides a bulk of the bonus for accuracy, while Suitability provides a bulk of the bonus for damage, but both will play a secondary role on their non-dominant side. This should help improve weapon performance for those who want to build themselves around a specific "style" of fighting while still preserving a distinct feel for each -- ie fast and agile with well-balanced weapons (accurate!) vs brute strength with well-suited weapons (damaging!).
I like!
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
I like!
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
DURATHING
Re: Combat 3.0: Basic Styles
03/08/2012 02:35 PM CST
>Stuff that Dartenian said
Looking forward to it!
Looking forward to it!
LHALLFIN
Re: Combat 3.0: Basic Styles
03/08/2012 03:34 PM CST
>GM Dartenian
Woot.
Thanks for the reply D.
CLEARLEAF
Re: Combat 3.0: Basic Styles
03/08/2012 09:30 PM CST
>For example, Slice gives a better bonus to slice damage than Thrust gives to puncture damage in the live instances. This is one of the things I rebalanced with Combat 3.0, and that should help improve the situation quite a bit.
This alone is good news, the rest not withstanding.
This alone is good news, the rest not withstanding.
BUUWL
Re: Combat 3.0: Basic Styles
03/09/2012 08:10 AM CST
Will there be any changes/improvements to Crossbow learning?
- Buuwl
- Buuwl
NEELD
Re: Combat 3.0: Basic Styles
03/09/2012 11:45 AM CST
<<For example, Slice gives a better bonus to slice damage than Thrust gives to puncture damage in the live instances. This is one of the things I rebalanced with Combat 3.0, and that should help improve the situation quite a bit.
<<This alone is good news, the rest not withstanding.
Hmmm...Dart, you may want to compare Lunge to Slice more than Thrust. Lunge outclasses slice in my experience and at a fairly noticeable level. Granted, it could just be my view of things and I have no subjective data to back that statement up. However, I have actively sought out a puncture 2HE for a really long time to take advantage of Lunge.
Madigan
<<This alone is good news, the rest not withstanding.
Hmmm...Dart, you may want to compare Lunge to Slice more than Thrust. Lunge outclasses slice in my experience and at a fairly noticeable level. Granted, it could just be my view of things and I have no subjective data to back that statement up. However, I have actively sought out a puncture 2HE for a really long time to take advantage of Lunge.
Madigan
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Combat 3.0: Basic Styles
03/09/2012 11:55 AM CST
>>Hmmm...Dart, you may want to compare Lunge to Slice more than Thrust. Lunge outclasses slice in my experience and at a fairly noticeable level.
I might be misunderstanding you, but according to Dart in 3.0 the order goes of weakest to strongest damage boosting for the puncture and slice damage sets are jab/thrust/lunge and jab/slice/chop. So slice and thrust are on the same level, similar to lunge and chop.
I might be misunderstanding you, but according to Dart in 3.0 the order goes of weakest to strongest damage boosting for the puncture and slice damage sets are jab/thrust/lunge and jab/slice/chop. So slice and thrust are on the same level, similar to lunge and chop.
TALEEK
NEELD
Re: Combat 3.0: Basic Styles
03/09/2012 02:21 PM CST
<<I might be misunderstanding you, but according to Dart in 3.0 the order goes of weakest to strongest damage boosting for the puncture and slice damage sets are jab/thrust/lunge and jab/slice/chop. So slice and thrust are on the same level, similar to lunge and chop.
My bad. I thought it was a comparison of old combat to come up with new combat modifiers.
Madigan
My bad. I thought it was a comparison of old combat to come up with new combat modifiers.
Madigan
DYERA7
Re: Combat 3.0: Basic Styles
03/09/2012 03:36 PM CST
>Will there be any changes/improvements to Crossbow learning?
From how I interpreted it, there very well could be:
>Experience for combat will be based primarily on the degree of challenge presented, NOT damage or lack thereof.
>Combat experience will be modified by how long an action takes to complete, so taking the time to AIM will not reduce exp over time.
From here: http://www.elanthipedia.com/w/index.php/Post:Combat_3.0_Update_-_02/05/2012_-_06:38
FALLENSHADOWS
Re: Combat 3.0: Basic Styles
03/10/2012 10:55 AM CST
>>From a Real life sense that actually makes a ton of sense... but eh.
You'd be surprised how little real life and gaming combat actually have in common.
War axes, as in axes specifically designed to kill people and not lets say chop wood, have very little "slice" it really doesn't matter how sharp their edges were, the weapon was entirely based on the principles of puncture and leverage. Granted they did have a little bit of an edge because it helped wedge itself through armor but you could blunt the edge and kill an unarmored man just the same.
_______________________
It is impossible to strive for the heroic life. The title of hero is bestowed by the survivors upon the fallen, who themselves know nothing of heroism.
-Johan Huizinga
TUMANGDAYZ29
Re: Combat 3.0: Basic Styles
03/10/2012 10:13 PM CST
Dart will sling get some love also. just wondering if i should keeping training it.
SHADESLAYER2
Re: Combat 3.0: Basic Styles
03/24/2012 12:41 AM CDT
Leilond made a good point earlier, that I haven't seen answered. Are there going to be any mechanics put in place for mages who typically bypass getting engaged in combat with drive-by-spellcasting? Example = prep stun spell;north;cast bob;south
FALLENSHADOWS
Re: Combat 3.0: Basic Styles
03/26/2012 02:49 AM CDT
Essentially were all getting a hp buff, so we'll be more durable, and things like stun or disability resistance will build. So run by stunning is going to be a downward spiral. Its not the most perfect thing, but suddenly faced with someone whose immune to your disabilities and with casting roundtime run by mage is going to suddenly face someone who is no longer stuck while you are.
Its not the best but its a hard nail to pound.
_______________________
It is impossible to strive for the heroic life. The title of hero is bestowed by the survivors upon the fallen, who themselves know nothing of heroism.
-Johan Huizinga
