What does this mean for people who buff evasion with, for example a CJ? If they are already pushing the limit on the grace period between evasion and their armor, will the CJ make them have a greater armor hindrance? Which would in turn make them use less evasion?
BENNETT083
ROCKYWILLIAMS1479
Re: Buffs and armor
07/02/2010 12:22 PM CDT
It has been stated, a few times, that more evasion will NEVER be a bad thing. More evasion might be less effective than more evasion and more armor, but is still more effective than less evasion.
DRPrime - Celeres Turrance
DRPrime - Celeres Turrance
ISHARON
Re: Buffs and armor
07/02/2010 01:39 PM CDT
Creating a bigger gap between evasion and armor only means that you may not be experiencing the minimum hindrance for that armor, which can have an adverse effect on your evasion. That being said, more evasion is always better than less evasion.
200 evasion & 200 armor > 200 evasion & 100 armor
200 evasion & 100 armor > 100 evasion & 100 armor
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
200 evasion & 200 armor > 200 evasion & 100 armor
200 evasion & 100 armor > 100 evasion & 100 armor
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
ROBERTDH
Re: Buffs and armor
07/02/2010 02:27 PM CDT
The additional hindrance is only cutting into your buff, because it's your improved ranks that are encountering hindrance... you still move in armor at least as well as you did before, but you're limited by how far your evasion can surpass your armor skill.
"Magic has rules and so does posting on these forums." -Annwyl
"Magic has rules and so does posting on these forums." -Annwyl
DR-DARTENIAN
Re: Buffs and armor
07/02/2010 07:56 PM CDT
Heyo!
The future hindrance changes will be based off base evasion always, not buffed evasion. So increasing your evasion through buffs will not hurt you in the slightest. However, armor skill buffs/debuffs will aid/hurt your hindrance.
- GM Dartenian
Though my soul may set in darkness it will rise in perfect light. I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night! - Sarah Williams
The future hindrance changes will be based off base evasion always, not buffed evasion. So increasing your evasion through buffs will not hurt you in the slightest. However, armor skill buffs/debuffs will aid/hurt your hindrance.
- GM Dartenian
Though my soul may set in darkness it will rise in perfect light. I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night! - Sarah Williams
BENNETT083
Re: Buffs and armor
07/03/2010 12:10 AM CDT
Ok, thanks for all the info! It's not that I use CJs (as being a barb) but I enjoy sparring and this information is vital so I can now not underestimate my opponent when they use one.
JMF90
Re: Buffs and armor
07/09/2010 01:45 PM CDT
>The future hindrance changes will be based off base evasion always, not buffed evasion. So increasing your evasion through buffs will not hurt you in the slightest. However, armor skill buffs/debuffs will aid/hurt your hindrance.
Does this mean that buffing in cursing your armor skill won't affect hinderance either? Why use base ranks at all?
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
Does this mean that buffing in cursing your armor skill won't affect hinderance either? Why use base ranks at all?
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
ROBERTDH
Re: Buffs and armor
07/09/2010 04:44 PM CDT
Not enough coffee this morning?
>>The future hindrance changes will be based off base evasion always, not buffed evasion. So increasing your evasion through buffs will not hurt you in the slightest. However, armor skill buffs/debuffs will aid/hurt your hindrance. <<--- (Here)
>Does this mean that buffing in cursing your armor skill won't affect hinderance either? Why use base ranks at all?
"Magic has rules and so does posting on these forums." -Annwyl
>>The future hindrance changes will be based off base evasion always, not buffed evasion. So increasing your evasion through buffs will not hurt you in the slightest. However, armor skill buffs/debuffs will aid/hurt your hindrance. <<--- (Here)
>Does this mean that buffing in cursing your armor skill won't affect hinderance either? Why use base ranks at all?
"Magic has rules and so does posting on these forums." -Annwyl
JMF90
Re: Buffs and armor
07/09/2010 05:09 PM CDT
>Not enough coffee this morning?
Catching up on a lot of old posts. But I don't understand why it would be based on base evasion ranks. It seems inconsistent and illogical and makes evasion buffing more beneficial than it otherwise would be.
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
Catching up on a lot of old posts. But I don't understand why it would be based on base evasion ranks. It seems inconsistent and illogical and makes evasion buffing more beneficial than it otherwise would be.
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
DANFORDS2
Re: Buffs and armor
07/10/2010 10:55 AM CDT
>I don't understand why it would be based on base evasion ranks. It seems inconsistent and illogical and makes evasion buffing more beneficial
Huh? Buffing evasion doesn't give you a negative effect, or any more positive effect than it did before. Armor effective ranks are used, so it makes buffing armor more beneficial. I might be misunderstanding what you're saying, though.
Elemental Lord Opieus, Expert Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"For a bunch of radical empiricists, the Philosophers' system relies on a whole lot of faith." ~Armifer
Huh? Buffing evasion doesn't give you a negative effect, or any more positive effect than it did before. Armor effective ranks are used, so it makes buffing armor more beneficial. I might be misunderstanding what you're saying, though.
Elemental Lord Opieus, Expert Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"For a bunch of radical empiricists, the Philosophers' system relies on a whole lot of faith." ~Armifer
FALLENSHADOWS
Re: Buffs and armor
07/10/2010 02:30 PM CDT
>>Catching up on a lot of old posts. But I don't understand why it would be based on base evasion ranks. It seems inconsistent and illogical and makes evasion buffing more beneficial than it otherwise would be.
Its modified Armor ranks vs Base Evasion ranks
This makes buffing evasion just as beneficial as currently stands while making buffing armor have an actual benefit.
Rather than having a buffed evasion be a reduced effect unless you equally buff armor, which I would consider more illogical.
_______________________
Yesterday, upon the stair,
I met a man who wasn’t there
He wasn’t there again today
I wish, I wish he’d go away...
Its modified Armor ranks vs Base Evasion ranks
This makes buffing evasion just as beneficial as currently stands while making buffing armor have an actual benefit.
Rather than having a buffed evasion be a reduced effect unless you equally buff armor, which I would consider more illogical.
_______________________
Yesterday, upon the stair,
I met a man who wasn’t there
He wasn’t there again today
I wish, I wish he’d go away...
JMF90
Re: Buffs and armor
07/11/2010 03:17 AM CDT
>Rather than having a buffed evasion be a reduced effect unless you equally buff armor, which I would consider more illogical.
Or it would make evasion boosts more useful if you have the armor ranks to make full use of them.
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
Or it would make evasion boosts more useful if you have the armor ranks to make full use of them.
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Buffs and armor
07/11/2010 03:17 PM CDT
>>Or it would make evasion boosts more useful if you have the armor ranks to make full use of them.
Do you even get a penalty (to evasion) if your armor is higher than your evasion? (besides basic armor penalty)
Vote DR as TOP MUD: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-cemm.html
Do you even get a penalty (to evasion) if your armor is higher than your evasion? (besides basic armor penalty)
Vote DR as TOP MUD: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-cemm.html
JMF90
Re: Buffs and armor
07/11/2010 06:07 PM CDT
>Do you even get a penalty (to evasion) if your armor is higher than your evasion? (besides basic armor penalty)
No, that's not what I meant.
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
No, that's not what I meant.
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
MARKCAT120
Re: Buffs and armor
07/12/2010 04:36 AM CDT
>>Do you even get a penalty (to evasion) if your armor is higher than your evasion? (besides basic armor penalty)
>No, that's not what I meant.
I don't think he was criticizing/correcting you, Cop. I think he was just asking a legitimate question.
The answer is: No. If your Armor ranks are within a certain percentage of your Evasion ranks or higher, then it is my understanding that the armor adds no additional hindrance to your evasion, other than whatever it normally gives.
>No, that's not what I meant.
I don't think he was criticizing/correcting you, Cop. I think he was just asking a legitimate question.
The answer is: No. If your Armor ranks are within a certain percentage of your Evasion ranks or higher, then it is my understanding that the armor adds no additional hindrance to your evasion, other than whatever it normally gives.
MARKCAT120
Re: Buffs and armor
07/27/2010 03:47 AM CDT
** Sorry... response to an older post that I meant to answer before everyone went nuts over the Combat 3.0 announcement **
JMF90 said:
>>Catching up on a lot of old posts. But I don't understand why it would be based on base evasion ranks. It seems inconsistent and illogical and makes evasion buffing more beneficial than it otherwise would be.
FALLENSHADOWS said:
>>>> Its modified Armor ranks vs Base Evasion ranks
>>>> This makes buffing evasion just as beneficial as currently stands while making buffing armor have an actual benefit.
>>>> Rather than having a buffed evasion be a reduced effect unless you equally buff armor, which I would consider more illogical.
JMF90 said:
>> Or it would make evasion boosts more useful if you have the armor ranks to make full use of them.
My Response:
I think it sounds good in theory, but in the reality of current game mechanics, it wouldn't work out too well except for those who play a Paladin.
Every other guild has the Survival skill-set either even with Armor or above Armor. What that means, is that if you train normally (By normally, I mean not dancing in combat with Evasion at '0' all the time) then most guilds will have their evasion about even or significantly higher than their armor ranks.
Also, it would be difficult and very time consuming to bring one's armor ranks so far above evasion, that a boost to evasion would make it even with armor ranks.
Guilds with Survival above Armor (especially Thief and Necro which have Survival two levels above Armor) are already at a big disadvantage with the new Armor system, since they will probably never have their armor ranks anywhere close to their evasion.
Forcing players to backtrain armor all the time to keep it close to evasion is a huge step in the wrong direction for the game. I understand that the GM's wanted to make Armor training more relevant, but I don't think this was the best way to go about doing it.
With the exception of Paladins, I think this dynamic armor change is going to be very frustrating for many of the players in the game (especially Survival-Prime, Armor-Terts). I hope the GM's can address these issues adequately before bringing the dynamic armor hindrance changes live.
Will there be some kind of system to Train armor in combat while not training evasion... and still be effective at defense? If not, then this change may be a lot of pain for some folks when they have to play catch up.
JMF90 said:
>>Catching up on a lot of old posts. But I don't understand why it would be based on base evasion ranks. It seems inconsistent and illogical and makes evasion buffing more beneficial than it otherwise would be.
FALLENSHADOWS said:
>>>> Its modified Armor ranks vs Base Evasion ranks
>>>> This makes buffing evasion just as beneficial as currently stands while making buffing armor have an actual benefit.
>>>> Rather than having a buffed evasion be a reduced effect unless you equally buff armor, which I would consider more illogical.
JMF90 said:
>> Or it would make evasion boosts more useful if you have the armor ranks to make full use of them.
My Response:
I think it sounds good in theory, but in the reality of current game mechanics, it wouldn't work out too well except for those who play a Paladin.
Every other guild has the Survival skill-set either even with Armor or above Armor. What that means, is that if you train normally (By normally, I mean not dancing in combat with Evasion at '0' all the time) then most guilds will have their evasion about even or significantly higher than their armor ranks.
Also, it would be difficult and very time consuming to bring one's armor ranks so far above evasion, that a boost to evasion would make it even with armor ranks.
Guilds with Survival above Armor (especially Thief and Necro which have Survival two levels above Armor) are already at a big disadvantage with the new Armor system, since they will probably never have their armor ranks anywhere close to their evasion.
Forcing players to backtrain armor all the time to keep it close to evasion is a huge step in the wrong direction for the game. I understand that the GM's wanted to make Armor training more relevant, but I don't think this was the best way to go about doing it.
With the exception of Paladins, I think this dynamic armor change is going to be very frustrating for many of the players in the game (especially Survival-Prime, Armor-Terts). I hope the GM's can address these issues adequately before bringing the dynamic armor hindrance changes live.
Will there be some kind of system to Train armor in combat while not training evasion... and still be effective at defense? If not, then this change may be a lot of pain for some folks when they have to play catch up.
SILVER-KNIGHT
Re: Buffs and armor
07/27/2010 05:09 AM CDT
>>>Will there be some kind of system to Train armor in combat while not training evasion... and still be effective at defense?
Short answer - yes. The concept in combat 3.0 is that all three main defenses (Parry, Evasion, and Shield) will come into effect where only Evasion does now. The effect that Parry and Shield now serve will be replaced with your Armor skills. So, for instance, you could use Parry and Shield 100/80, and you'd learn Parry, Shield, and Armor and NOT get eaten by the first thing that glances at you crosswise.
From the Combat 3.0 Overview post:
>>> WHERE WE ARE GOING:
>>>Evasion, parry, and shield will combine to form a first line of defense. They will be equal partners, and any 180% stance variation will be equally effective, all other considerations being equal.
>>>Armor skill modified by the appropriate armor protection stats will replace parry and shield as the second line of defense. Armor skill will work in a manner similar to how parry/shield do now -- as a second line of defense if the first line fails, but before a hit or miss is determined and damage computed.
Short answer - yes. The concept in combat 3.0 is that all three main defenses (Parry, Evasion, and Shield) will come into effect where only Evasion does now. The effect that Parry and Shield now serve will be replaced with your Armor skills. So, for instance, you could use Parry and Shield 100/80, and you'd learn Parry, Shield, and Armor and NOT get eaten by the first thing that glances at you crosswise.
From the Combat 3.0 Overview post:
>>> WHERE WE ARE GOING:
>>>Evasion, parry, and shield will combine to form a first line of defense. They will be equal partners, and any 180% stance variation will be equally effective, all other considerations being equal.
>>>Armor skill modified by the appropriate armor protection stats will replace parry and shield as the second line of defense. Armor skill will work in a manner similar to how parry/shield do now -- as a second line of defense if the first line fails, but before a hit or miss is determined and damage computed.
GERSTEINJ2
Re: Buffs and armor
07/27/2010 06:40 AM CDT
<<Guilds with Survival above Armor (especially Thief and Necro which have Survival two levels above Armor) are already at a big disadvantage with the new Armor system, since they will probably never have their armor ranks anywhere close to their evasion.>>
while that is true for older characters, it isn't necessarily true for newer ones.
My thief that statement holds very true for. <about 250 ranks difference>. For my necro, i've managed to keep armor not Too far behind <only about 40 ranks>. By carefully managing hunting and "catching it up" as I go. Granted not everyone wants to train like that, there are those who circle & advance far more rapidly than I do. But sometimes its just fun to stop and smell the roses. Or ... wahtever. :-)
Necromancy provides the only source of reliable and potent life extension on Elanthia.
ILLIENA
NEELD
Re: Buffs and armor
07/27/2010 09:28 AM CDT
<<I understand that the GM's wanted to make Armor training more relevant, but I don't think this was the best way to go about doing it.
Serious question by the way. How would you propose to make the armor skillset meaningful?
Madigan
Serious question by the way. How would you propose to make the armor skillset meaningful?
Madigan
TILTINGVAGABOND
Re: Buffs and armor
07/27/2010 09:58 AM CDT
<<Serious question by the way. How would you propose to make the armor skillset meaningful?
A few things:
+even greater separation between protections and having very little overlap between between types of armors. Extend the protections through a greater range.
+damage types better utilized and protections increasing in importance as well. Having more thought going into what type of weapon is best against what type of opponent.
+greater stealth hinderances and evasion hinderances for the heavy armors. Adjust the stealth from 0 hind to cloth -- to basically impossible for HP.
Finally, and most importantly, make these new expanded ranges trainable to 1500+ ranks.
And for some sugar on top, add skill set perks such as shield feats (ig already somewhat), mixing of armor penalties less severe. Maybe even a feat where by with full plate you can stand there for a second and taunt your opponent into exhaustion while mocking him.
Just some thoughts. I wear leather and cloth, and I think the high end leathers might protect too well for what they are, while still allowing extreme stealth, and evasion. And cloth I think is still a bit too stealth hindering for what it is, and the protections aren't quite right.
- The Halfwitted Halfing
A few things:
+even greater separation between protections and having very little overlap between between types of armors. Extend the protections through a greater range.
+damage types better utilized and protections increasing in importance as well. Having more thought going into what type of weapon is best against what type of opponent.
+greater stealth hinderances and evasion hinderances for the heavy armors. Adjust the stealth from 0 hind to cloth -- to basically impossible for HP.
Finally, and most importantly, make these new expanded ranges trainable to 1500+ ranks.
And for some sugar on top, add skill set perks such as shield feats (ig already somewhat), mixing of armor penalties less severe. Maybe even a feat where by with full plate you can stand there for a second and taunt your opponent into exhaustion while mocking him.
Just some thoughts. I wear leather and cloth, and I think the high end leathers might protect too well for what they are, while still allowing extreme stealth, and evasion. And cloth I think is still a bit too stealth hindering for what it is, and the protections aren't quite right.
- The Halfwitted Halfing
FUTILITY
Re: Buffs and armor
07/27/2010 10:02 AM CDT
>>Serious question by the way. How would you propose to make the armor skillset meaningful?
The answer is too serious to be considered currently. Armor has always been a poorly-developed skillset, system, and even current development doesn't look like it's really going to change anything.
But they're also not going to suddenly shift everyone's skillsets around to remove a skillset that simply cannot ever be on the same playing field as the others, even if there was a GM assigned to do nothing but brainstorm and update the skills and skillset.
But Armor's real problem is that it is the only skillset learned entirely passively. Even adding one new skill that isn't learned passively isn't going to solve this one.
The answer is too serious to be considered currently. Armor has always been a poorly-developed skillset, system, and even current development doesn't look like it's really going to change anything.
But they're also not going to suddenly shift everyone's skillsets around to remove a skillset that simply cannot ever be on the same playing field as the others, even if there was a GM assigned to do nothing but brainstorm and update the skills and skillset.
But Armor's real problem is that it is the only skillset learned entirely passively. Even adding one new skill that isn't learned passively isn't going to solve this one.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Buffs and armor
07/27/2010 11:23 AM CDT
>>Guilds with Survival above Armor (especially Thief and Necro which have Survival two levels above Armor) are already at a big disadvantage with the new Armor system, since they will probably never have their armor ranks anywhere close to their evasion.
My Necro's three armors (bone/cloth/shield) are 4-8 ranks lower than his evasion.
My Necro's three armors (bone/cloth/shield) are 4-8 ranks lower than his evasion.
PENDUS
Re: Buffs and armor
07/27/2010 11:57 AM CDT
>>Serious question by the way. How would you propose to make the armor skillset meaningful? <<
Making the skillset meaningful is relatively easy I think. It's making the skillset as good of a source for tdps as the others.
Making the skillset meaningful is relatively easy I think. It's making the skillset as good of a source for tdps as the others.
FBC
Re: Buffs and armor
07/27/2010 12:02 PM CDT
>>It's making the skillset as good of a source for tdps as the others.
The GMs have said multiple times that they want TDP farming to go away so I wouldn't count on them doing something about this.
The GMs have said multiple times that they want TDP farming to go away so I wouldn't count on them doing something about this.
PENDUS
Re: Buffs and armor
07/27/2010 12:17 PM CDT
Yeah I know. Though short of a complete tdp rewrite, it's going to happen in some fashion. If they changed it to light armor, chain and plate like it was mentioned at the con, I'll be training all of them anyway.
FBC
Re: Buffs and armor
07/27/2010 12:21 PM CDT
>>Yeah I know. Though short of a complete tdp rewrite, it's going to happen in some fashion.
I'm just saying, don't expect your inability to farm TDPs with the armor skillset to have any sway with the GMs. If you have ideas to improve the armor skillset, and it sounded like you do from your last post, spit them out.
I'm just saying, don't expect your inability to farm TDPs with the armor skillset to have any sway with the GMs. If you have ideas to improve the armor skillset, and it sounded like you do from your last post, spit them out.
SAUVA
Re: Buffs and armor
07/27/2010 03:28 PM CDT
>short of a complete tdp rewrite
I was under the impression this was happening anyway. Specifically to address:
>The GMs have said multiple times that they want TDP farming to go away
~Hunter Hanryu
http://drplat.com/CombatEquipmentCompendium.xls
http://tinyurl.com/HanryuTanning
I was under the impression this was happening anyway. Specifically to address:
>The GMs have said multiple times that they want TDP farming to go away
~Hunter Hanryu
http://drplat.com/CombatEquipmentCompendium.xls
http://tinyurl.com/HanryuTanning
PENDUS
Re: Buffs and armor
07/27/2010 05:59 PM CDT
I have a few, most aren't fleshed out and I don't want to put any half-baked ideas out there. One is an active defense skill called Guarding. It's basically the Paladin Guard ability. Paladins get a bonus still and can guard an extra person. It promotes group hunting(something the GMs have said they want more of) and provides another skill to train.
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Buffs and armor
08/01/2010 10:41 AM CDT
Making armor ranks penalize evasion seems like it shouldn't happen now that armor will be an active defense.
If they do it right, they shouldn't need the whole gap system. You have more armor ranks, you defend better because it's an active defense. Makes it pretty relevent without touching evasion.
Thoughts?
Vote DR as TOP MUD: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-cemm.html
If they do it right, they shouldn't need the whole gap system. You have more armor ranks, you defend better because it's an active defense. Makes it pretty relevent without touching evasion.
Thoughts?
Vote DR as TOP MUD: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-cemm.html
