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>Moon mage here, and it's just a mystery to me since I have more ranks than what you described but none of the combat problems using my mixed setup, even against creatures that app solid/difficult for me. I never really thought about the armor mixing penalty until people started complaining about it.
Keep in mind that things have changed drastically with the new combat system. Lots of things are viable now that weren't before, like wearing no armor. That doesn't make it optimal.
DRSCOTT
BADGOPHER
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
10/09/2014 06:32 PM CDT
Are you suggesting wearing no armor is viable now?
COLDLIGHT
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
10/10/2014 12:56 AM CDT
I do agree the mixed penalty seems very high, I'm glad Kodius has said he will review it, although I don't know if pallies have a better time of it as a guild perk. I wouldn't want to step on another guild.
It doesn't surprise me at all to hear that at some level a mixed armor setup will stop working well. My comments to Coper were really that the cutoff point has to be somewhere beyond 300. I've seen a lot of dissing on mixed when I never found it to be much trouble, but maybe all those posters had higher ranks.
I'll show what got me wondering. Being armor / weapon tert, I'm really just a casual hunter, but here are my defenses:
Shield Usage: 456 94% clear (0/34)
Light Armor: 399 60% clear (0/34)
Chain Armor: 396 55% clear (0/34)
Brigandine: 394 20% clear (0/34)
Plate Armor: 394 03% clear (0/34)
Defending: 450 55% clear (0/34)
Parry Ability: 440 56% clear (0/34)
Evasion: 477 94% clear (0/34)
Nothing spectacular, but with those I can stand with no problems against four creatures like shadow beasts or warklins or black marble gargoyles (which teach far higher than it says on elanthipedia). This is in my four armor setup with an even 62/62/62 stance. Each of those creatures still lock all my defenses.
- Taking stock of its offensive abilities, and defending with a gargoyle-hide shield and an ivory-hilted jambiya, you are certain that the shadow beast is a difficult opponent.
On elanthipedia someone mentioned shadow beasts hardcap at 680 ranks. If that is still true, then they will take my four armor setup well into the upper ranges of the creatures I mentioned in my other post: goblins, giants, malchatas, and zombies. That's why I questioned the 300 ranks. But perhaps at that point the mixed armor setup will finally reveal its limits.
>>I have a feeling that if you stopped using any broken magic barriers (MAF, etc.) you'd find it a lot more difficult to survive.
I should use them, but I never use buffs or barriers. I played around with COL a while back, but it was against creatures that could only scuff me, so it wasn't a fair testing.
>>I also suspect that if you stopped using barriers and buffs, got a baseline status, and then swapped to a low hindrance setup of only chain, you'd see drastic differences.
I agree of course my four armor setup has drastically more hindrance than only chain.
>>Speaking about purely mechanics and optimization (not RP choices) I try to minimize the mixing penalty and the hindrance penalty because they're just that, penalties. From a mechanical stand point, I want to train all types of armor on my character so I choose the option that allows me to do so with as little penalties to my defense as possible.
This is a good practical approach, especially the part about having penalties as small as possible. I completely agree.
>>There's no reason for my character to walk around with four different types of armor on at the same time and be a sitting duck when I can easily swap out greaves and learn just as well.
This is good too, but currently I can hunt in four armors in safety, so it hasn't become an issue yet. If the day ever comes I'm a sitting duck I'll change my script to switch armors as you do. The greaves switching has been popular for a long time.
>>Mixed armor works if you don't spend any significant time in combat or you're lazy and don't want to have to swap armor pieces periodically.
Since most creatures don't drop many boxes I found myself training all 15 weapon skills in order to get a bagful. So I'm in my mixed setup for quite a while. At least at my current level, it's usually only a few scuffs after I'm done hunting. But I do agree with your basic premise: if you're getting banged up enough to have to leave hunting early, then definitely think about improving your armor and hindrance. It would be stupid not to.
>>Speaking for as someone that hunts lava drakes and cabalists in a mixed leather, chain and brig setup while being rather hindered I can you that the mixing penalty becomes more apparent when you defenses reach the 4-digit point.
I had been replacing my old forged pieces with newly crafted ones. Unfortunately this took me up to very hindered. Some brigandine headgear I was trying out had light hindrance, so I went back to my old LP helm with insignificant hindrance. Doing that dropped my overall hindrance of my four armor back down to rather hindered. My new steel ring gloves work well and are much better at the same hindrance as my old ones as far as I can test. I would like to reach that level with a four armor setup to see how it goes, even though it might not work out as I hope.
<<(sorry Moon Mages, Bards, Clerics, and Warrior Mages).
>>Moon Mages are survival secondary. Not sure why you are adding them to that list?
I think I misinterpreted Coper's comment. I mainly saw the "armor tert" in the first part of his sentence.
>>Keep in mind that things have changed drastically with the new combat system. Lots of things are viable now that weren't before, like wearing no armor.
I had noticed this too. Testing out armorless combat you definitely get hit harder and more frequently, but it's not the instant death sentence that someone might think it is, at least in some situations. Creatures with some uber attack of doom excepted.
>>That doesn't make it optimal.
I'm flexible, and I always go for results over theory. As long as my four armor setup works well I'll leave it as it is and work on other things that are in more need of attention. If I ever reach a point where my armors are causing more problems than they're worth (ala Clerichax's sitting duck example), it will go to the top of my list. This entire conversation of mine got started because it seemed to me like everyone hated mixing armors, and I wanted to find out more about why that was so.
It doesn't surprise me at all to hear that at some level a mixed armor setup will stop working well. My comments to Coper were really that the cutoff point has to be somewhere beyond 300. I've seen a lot of dissing on mixed when I never found it to be much trouble, but maybe all those posters had higher ranks.
I'll show what got me wondering. Being armor / weapon tert, I'm really just a casual hunter, but here are my defenses:
Shield Usage: 456 94% clear (0/34)
Light Armor: 399 60% clear (0/34)
Chain Armor: 396 55% clear (0/34)
Brigandine: 394 20% clear (0/34)
Plate Armor: 394 03% clear (0/34)
Defending: 450 55% clear (0/34)
Parry Ability: 440 56% clear (0/34)
Evasion: 477 94% clear (0/34)
Nothing spectacular, but with those I can stand with no problems against four creatures like shadow beasts or warklins or black marble gargoyles (which teach far higher than it says on elanthipedia). This is in my four armor setup with an even 62/62/62 stance. Each of those creatures still lock all my defenses.
- Taking stock of its offensive abilities, and defending with a gargoyle-hide shield and an ivory-hilted jambiya, you are certain that the shadow beast is a difficult opponent.
On elanthipedia someone mentioned shadow beasts hardcap at 680 ranks. If that is still true, then they will take my four armor setup well into the upper ranges of the creatures I mentioned in my other post: goblins, giants, malchatas, and zombies. That's why I questioned the 300 ranks. But perhaps at that point the mixed armor setup will finally reveal its limits.
>>I have a feeling that if you stopped using any broken magic barriers (MAF, etc.) you'd find it a lot more difficult to survive.
I should use them, but I never use buffs or barriers. I played around with COL a while back, but it was against creatures that could only scuff me, so it wasn't a fair testing.
>>I also suspect that if you stopped using barriers and buffs, got a baseline status, and then swapped to a low hindrance setup of only chain, you'd see drastic differences.
I agree of course my four armor setup has drastically more hindrance than only chain.
>>Speaking about purely mechanics and optimization (not RP choices) I try to minimize the mixing penalty and the hindrance penalty because they're just that, penalties. From a mechanical stand point, I want to train all types of armor on my character so I choose the option that allows me to do so with as little penalties to my defense as possible.
This is a good practical approach, especially the part about having penalties as small as possible. I completely agree.
>>There's no reason for my character to walk around with four different types of armor on at the same time and be a sitting duck when I can easily swap out greaves and learn just as well.
This is good too, but currently I can hunt in four armors in safety, so it hasn't become an issue yet. If the day ever comes I'm a sitting duck I'll change my script to switch armors as you do. The greaves switching has been popular for a long time.
>>Mixed armor works if you don't spend any significant time in combat or you're lazy and don't want to have to swap armor pieces periodically.
Since most creatures don't drop many boxes I found myself training all 15 weapon skills in order to get a bagful. So I'm in my mixed setup for quite a while. At least at my current level, it's usually only a few scuffs after I'm done hunting. But I do agree with your basic premise: if you're getting banged up enough to have to leave hunting early, then definitely think about improving your armor and hindrance. It would be stupid not to.
>>Speaking for as someone that hunts lava drakes and cabalists in a mixed leather, chain and brig setup while being rather hindered I can you that the mixing penalty becomes more apparent when you defenses reach the 4-digit point.
I had been replacing my old forged pieces with newly crafted ones. Unfortunately this took me up to very hindered. Some brigandine headgear I was trying out had light hindrance, so I went back to my old LP helm with insignificant hindrance. Doing that dropped my overall hindrance of my four armor back down to rather hindered. My new steel ring gloves work well and are much better at the same hindrance as my old ones as far as I can test. I would like to reach that level with a four armor setup to see how it goes, even though it might not work out as I hope.
<<(sorry Moon Mages, Bards, Clerics, and Warrior Mages).
>>Moon Mages are survival secondary. Not sure why you are adding them to that list?
I think I misinterpreted Coper's comment. I mainly saw the "armor tert" in the first part of his sentence.
>>Keep in mind that things have changed drastically with the new combat system. Lots of things are viable now that weren't before, like wearing no armor.
I had noticed this too. Testing out armorless combat you definitely get hit harder and more frequently, but it's not the instant death sentence that someone might think it is, at least in some situations. Creatures with some uber attack of doom excepted.
>>That doesn't make it optimal.
I'm flexible, and I always go for results over theory. As long as my four armor setup works well I'll leave it as it is and work on other things that are in more need of attention. If I ever reach a point where my armors are causing more problems than they're worth (ala Clerichax's sitting duck example), it will go to the top of my list. This entire conversation of mine got started because it seemed to me like everyone hated mixing armors, and I wanted to find out more about why that was so.
ORBITAL303
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
10/10/2014 01:01 AM CDT
Most of the creature training ranges on Elanthipedia have not been updated to 3.0 and should be taken with a grain of salt as well.
- Starlear, Warrior Mage and Lieutenant of Ilithi's Crystal Vanguard -
- I maintain the Warrior Mage Beginner's Guide at:
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Beginner%27s_Warrior_Mage_Guide
- Starlear, Warrior Mage and Lieutenant of Ilithi's Crystal Vanguard -
- I maintain the Warrior Mage Beginner's Guide at:
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Beginner%27s_Warrior_Mage_Guide
COLDLIGHT
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
10/10/2014 01:27 AM CDT
>>Most of the creature training ranges on Elanthipedia have not been updated to 3.0 and should be taken with a grain of salt as well.
This is seriously true. All the orcs are vastly overrated.
This is seriously true. All the orcs are vastly overrated.
BICKFORDS3
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
10/10/2014 06:07 AM CDT
This is more of a tangent towards Elanthipedia, but it is worth noting. It is in -our- best interest as a community to pitch in and update the numbers on the wiki. It isn't difficult to edit the cap numbers and having an appraise careful at level (with the associated stats provided) listed.
Such as:
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Adan%27f_Shadow_Mage
Usually when I observe people PvPing it is a problem with their stat assignment being much less than their opponent, and more often than not their opponent has higher skills than they were expecting. - Kodius
Know your enemy and know yourself, find naught in fear for 100 battles. Know yourself but not your enemy, find level of loss and victory. Know thy enemy but not yourself, wallow in defeat every time. - Sun Tzu
Such as:
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Adan%27f_Shadow_Mage
Usually when I observe people PvPing it is a problem with their stat assignment being much less than their opponent, and more often than not their opponent has higher skills than they were expecting. - Kodius
Know your enemy and know yourself, find naught in fear for 100 battles. Know yourself but not your enemy, find level of loss and victory. Know thy enemy but not yourself, wallow in defeat every time. - Sun Tzu
BADGOPHER
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
10/10/2014 06:56 AM CDT
Please, for the love of somethingsomethingsomething, if you observe caps different from what the wiki lists, either edit them in yourself, or put a note on the talk page, or note it somewhere so someone who wants to edit the wiki can.
DRSCOTT
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
10/10/2014 07:29 PM CDT
>Are you suggesting wearing no armor is viable now?
Yes, but with the minimal hinderance of cloth it becomes a question of why. I wear almost no armor currently for the weight benefit. I swap out some accessories. Then again, it helps that I can heal myself in combat as a necromancer.
>I found myself training all 15 weapon skills in order to get a bagful. So I'm in my mixed setup for quite a while.
You are not a casual hunter if you're training virtually every weapon skill in the game, regardless of what % of time you're in combat. In fact, this coupled with the fact that you're a moon mage leads me to believe you have stats that far exceed what you hunt. In that case you could wear virtually any equipment and be successful in combat. That said, you'd probably have much more defense by limiting yourself to two armor types at once and swapping. Especially since you're spending so much time in combat. But ant the end of the day, whatever floats your boat.
>Please, for the love of somethingsomethingsomething, if you observe caps different from what the wiki lists, either edit them in yourself, or put a note on the talk page, or note it somewhere so someone who wants to edit the wiki can.
Yes, but I think we should completely redo the ranges with all of the new appraisal info.
Yes, but with the minimal hinderance of cloth it becomes a question of why. I wear almost no armor currently for the weight benefit. I swap out some accessories. Then again, it helps that I can heal myself in combat as a necromancer.
>I found myself training all 15 weapon skills in order to get a bagful. So I'm in my mixed setup for quite a while.
You are not a casual hunter if you're training virtually every weapon skill in the game, regardless of what % of time you're in combat. In fact, this coupled with the fact that you're a moon mage leads me to believe you have stats that far exceed what you hunt. In that case you could wear virtually any equipment and be successful in combat. That said, you'd probably have much more defense by limiting yourself to two armor types at once and swapping. Especially since you're spending so much time in combat. But ant the end of the day, whatever floats your boat.
>Please, for the love of somethingsomethingsomething, if you observe caps different from what the wiki lists, either edit them in yourself, or put a note on the talk page, or note it somewhere so someone who wants to edit the wiki can.
Yes, but I think we should completely redo the ranges with all of the new appraisal info.
DISCOTEQ21
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
10/10/2014 09:57 PM CDT
I wear all armors at once on my barb, mm and others.
Leather jerkin
Leather greaves
Plate gauntlets
Chain balaclava
Brig vamb.
Do I PVP in this? No of course not, but it works really well in training. I train stealth at level in this too with some of my characters. I use lowest hindrance shields as possible.
Don't forget to vote for dragonrealms:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
Leather jerkin
Leather greaves
Plate gauntlets
Chain balaclava
Brig vamb.
Do I PVP in this? No of course not, but it works really well in training. I train stealth at level in this too with some of my characters. I use lowest hindrance shields as possible.
Don't forget to vote for dragonrealms:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
COLDLIGHT
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
10/11/2014 04:57 AM CDT
>>You are not a casual hunter if you're training virtually every weapon skill in the game, regardless of what % of time you're in combat.
Fair enough. What I meant by casual is I don't prioritize it. There are skills I want to work consistently, but I don't always hunt every day. And you're right that I have good agility/reflex. They've gone up faster than my combats, especially since I've been pushing them the last couple months.
>>That said, you'd probably have much more defense by limiting yourself to two armor types at once and swapping. But ant the end of the day, whatever floats your boat.
If you mean having less hindrance would help my defense then of course that's true. But results are more important to me than theory. Since my current crop of creatures only scuff me, it makes more sense to just train all four armors simultaneously from the start. When I go up the ladder if I start getting hurt I'll try something different.
>>Yes, but I think we should completely redo the ranges with all of the new appraisal info.
>>having an appraise careful at level (with the associated stats provided) listed.
This is a really good idea.
Fair enough. What I meant by casual is I don't prioritize it. There are skills I want to work consistently, but I don't always hunt every day. And you're right that I have good agility/reflex. They've gone up faster than my combats, especially since I've been pushing them the last couple months.
>>That said, you'd probably have much more defense by limiting yourself to two armor types at once and swapping. But ant the end of the day, whatever floats your boat.
If you mean having less hindrance would help my defense then of course that's true. But results are more important to me than theory. Since my current crop of creatures only scuff me, it makes more sense to just train all four armors simultaneously from the start. When I go up the ladder if I start getting hurt I'll try something different.
>>Yes, but I think we should completely redo the ranges with all of the new appraisal info.
>>having an appraise careful at level (with the associated stats provided) listed.
This is a really good idea.
CLERIXHAX
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
10/11/2014 08:42 AM CDT
Out of curiosity I'd be interested in seeing stats/exp/creature being hunted. I had a much easier time as copernicus noted because the moon mage requirement allowed me to be around 100th circle before I went into snowbeasts. So I had a lot of stat padding. You may still be in this period, it'll eventually even out and the mixing penalty will catch up to you as an armor tert. Especially if you don't buff.
Amiron says, "Even a mute would have said something about this amount of people being about."
Amiron says, "Even a mute would have said something about this amount of people being about."
BLUESUEDESHOES
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
10/11/2014 12:03 PM CDT
>>Please, for the love of somethingsomethingsomething, if you observe caps different from what the wiki lists, either edit them in yourself, or put a note on the talk page, or note it somewhere so someone who wants to edit the wiki can.<<
I've never been able to figure out how to edit the numbers in the bestiary. I've been able to add comments and other information, but have no clue how to edit the min/max numbers to give people a better idea of what the actual hunting range is in 3.1
________________________________________________________________
"I only automatically kill players when they're asking for it or it's funny. Or both." ~GM Raesh
I've never been able to figure out how to edit the numbers in the bestiary. I've been able to add comments and other information, but have no clue how to edit the min/max numbers to give people a better idea of what the actual hunting range is in 3.1
________________________________________________________________
"I only automatically kill players when they're asking for it or it's funny. Or both." ~GM Raesh
ABSOLON
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
10/11/2014 12:26 PM CDT
<<I've never been able to figure out how to edit the numbers in the bestiary. I've been able to add comments and other information, but have no clue how to edit the min/max numbers to give people a better idea of what the actual hunting range is in 3.1
Click 'Edit with form' at the top of the page. It should be pretty self-explanatory from that point, aside from a few entries like maps and such.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
Click 'Edit with form' at the top of the page. It should be pretty self-explanatory from that point, aside from a few entries like maps and such.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
ABSOLON
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
10/11/2014 12:27 PM CDT
Oh, and if you do adjust the numbers to 3.1 numbers, check the little box on the right that says, 'New Caps' to flag the page as being updated to 3.1.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
ILLIENA
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
10/11/2014 12:36 PM CDT
And only write actual numbers. Please don't put question marks or things like that to indicate an estimate.
ABSOLON
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
10/11/2014 12:46 PM CDT
<<And only write actual numbers. Please don't put question marks or things like that to indicate an estimate.
The form was updated to include this detail a while ago, so this should happen less.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
The form was updated to include this detail a while ago, so this should happen less.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
COLDLIGHT
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
11/29/2015 08:46 PM CST
FWIW follow-up for my earlier conversation with Coper if he's still playing, I haven't seen him post in a while. For anyone else interested in this thread:
I finally reached the point where my armor-tert, 4-armor setup just wasn't practical any longer, although it happened a little further along than was being discussed in previous posts. The jump to black goblins, malchata, maulers, sky giants, and the like was doable but needed me to leave combat several times to get fixed up. I also usually had to put up with a stun or two. 550-610 defenses, armors lowest and evasion highest.
What I had to change were these:
I used to go up the ladder so slowly that buffs weren't necessary. Now they are, so I keep Seer's Sense up as an evasion boost. It helps but isn't enough.
In my old armors, I gave up absorption for lower hindrance. Now I have a 3-armor setup that rotates brigandine and plate in the third slot to train all four. The overall hindrance is equal or lower than before, moderate became moderate or somewhat, depending on whether plate or brigandine had the third slot. The distribution is different now too, so I had to make new pieces. The new absorptions are much higher on the replaced pieces: very good, high, very high have become great, very great, extreme. Also better but still didn't help enough.
I added a balance check to my script that bobs until I am adeptly balanced or higher before attacking. I'm getting nothing but scuffs here and there now. No more interrupting hunting for healing trips. I'll keep an eye on it, but it looks good so far. This made the biggest change in being able to go up the ladder. I don't have any numbers, but I think Seer's was the second biggest change with the improved armor setup coming in last.
Since apes don't hit hard, it's possible I could hunt in apes until defenses were high enough to go against the other creatures, but with only 460 weapons I wasn't really hitting them often enough to keep a hunt down to a reasonable length. Plus, I like boxes and my new armor setup.
Anyway, I hope something in all this is helpful to others as well.
You have a dull iron hurling axe with a sinew-wrapped leather hilt lodged savagely into your abdomen.
You are in good shape.
I finally reached the point where my armor-tert, 4-armor setup just wasn't practical any longer, although it happened a little further along than was being discussed in previous posts. The jump to black goblins, malchata, maulers, sky giants, and the like was doable but needed me to leave combat several times to get fixed up. I also usually had to put up with a stun or two. 550-610 defenses, armors lowest and evasion highest.
What I had to change were these:
I used to go up the ladder so slowly that buffs weren't necessary. Now they are, so I keep Seer's Sense up as an evasion boost. It helps but isn't enough.
In my old armors, I gave up absorption for lower hindrance. Now I have a 3-armor setup that rotates brigandine and plate in the third slot to train all four. The overall hindrance is equal or lower than before, moderate became moderate or somewhat, depending on whether plate or brigandine had the third slot. The distribution is different now too, so I had to make new pieces. The new absorptions are much higher on the replaced pieces: very good, high, very high have become great, very great, extreme. Also better but still didn't help enough.
I added a balance check to my script that bobs until I am adeptly balanced or higher before attacking. I'm getting nothing but scuffs here and there now. No more interrupting hunting for healing trips. I'll keep an eye on it, but it looks good so far. This made the biggest change in being able to go up the ladder. I don't have any numbers, but I think Seer's was the second biggest change with the improved armor setup coming in last.
Since apes don't hit hard, it's possible I could hunt in apes until defenses were high enough to go against the other creatures, but with only 460 weapons I wasn't really hitting them often enough to keep a hunt down to a reasonable length. Plus, I like boxes and my new armor setup.
Anyway, I hope something in all this is helpful to others as well.
You have a dull iron hurling axe with a sinew-wrapped leather hilt lodged savagely into your abdomen.
You are in good shape.
BENNETTJ13
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
11/29/2015 10:37 PM CST
All of your armor:
a light plate mask (lumium by lennon)
some scale gloves (lumium by lennon)
a small shield (Diamond-hide)
some nightmare black leathers
a ring helm (lumium by lennon)
[Type INVENTORY HELP for more options]
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently somewhat (6/14) hindered and your stealth is insignificantly (3/14) hindered.
Totally doable as a tert.
I could get it lower if I wanted to pay stupid amounts of plat for imp weave or zenganne body.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
a light plate mask (lumium by lennon)
some scale gloves (lumium by lennon)
a small shield (Diamond-hide)
some nightmare black leathers
a ring helm (lumium by lennon)
[Type INVENTORY HELP for more options]
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently somewhat (6/14) hindered and your stealth is insignificantly (3/14) hindered.
Totally doable as a tert.
I could get it lower if I wanted to pay stupid amounts of plat for imp weave or zenganne body.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
COLDLIGHT
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
11/30/2015 12:57 AM CST
Those are some fancy pieces, especially the diamond-hide. I think you have more of a budget than I do. It was interesting, thank you for showing. I like to see how other people are solving problems.
But I needed to get leather off my torso. That was where I was getting the most and worst injuries. It had to go. Chain is my biggest coverage now:
head/eyes/neck (brigandine or plate)
torso/arms (chain)
hands/legs (leather)
I do like that division. It's not too uneven except that brig/plate are smaller to keep hindrance down. (to wear a mask I'd have to remove my nose ring, and I did't want to do that) The pieces are standard leather and HCS, and the gargoyle targe I bought for a few plat. The whole outfit was inexpensive, some of it I made, and with a capped Shadows I can hide at level with no problem. Even the brigandine/plate lock long before weapons.
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently moderately hindered and your stealth is moderately hindered.
Not quite as good as yours.
>I could get it lower if I wanted to pay stupid amounts of plat for imp weave or zenganne body.
Totally agree here about exorbitant prices.
You have a dull iron hurling axe with a sinew-wrapped leather hilt lodged savagely into your abdomen.
You are in good shape.
But I needed to get leather off my torso. That was where I was getting the most and worst injuries. It had to go. Chain is my biggest coverage now:
head/eyes/neck (brigandine or plate)
torso/arms (chain)
hands/legs (leather)
I do like that division. It's not too uneven except that brig/plate are smaller to keep hindrance down. (to wear a mask I'd have to remove my nose ring, and I did't want to do that) The pieces are standard leather and HCS, and the gargoyle targe I bought for a few plat. The whole outfit was inexpensive, some of it I made, and with a capped Shadows I can hide at level with no problem. Even the brigandine/plate lock long before weapons.
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently moderately hindered and your stealth is moderately hindered.
Not quite as good as yours.
>I could get it lower if I wanted to pay stupid amounts of plat for imp weave or zenganne body.
Totally agree here about exorbitant prices.
You have a dull iron hurling axe with a sinew-wrapped leather hilt lodged savagely into your abdomen.
You are in good shape.
BADGOPHER
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
11/30/2015 07:03 AM CST
If you're hunting malchata and so on, can you not afford silk and lumium? Those will drop hindrance a few points, especially if you go for the light models.
SHADOWCHIEF2
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
11/30/2015 01:55 PM CST
I've never really had a problem with hindrance effecting hunting except all low levels. Until just recently I used shard leathers, visored helm and scale aventail from crossing shops, lumium chain gloves, not reduced for hindrance, and a tanned targe. Was moderately hindered with that setup. I recently got nightmare leathers, a bit more hindering than shard leathers so it bumped me up to rather hindered, though, I take less damage because of the better protection. I've never bothered looking for reduced hindrance plate and lumium because frankly it didn't bother me hunting, though i'll probably seek some out now just because.
COLDLIGHT
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
12/01/2015 11:37 PM CST
>If you're hunting malchata and so on, can you not afford silk and lumium? Those will drop hindrance a few points, especially if you go for the light models.
I do have the money to buy nice things, but my first step is usually to reach my goals without spending too much. That's what I meant by budget. The diamond-hide and other top materials do have great looks though. Once I get to my armor/weapon goals, which aren't that far away, I'll cut back the number of skills I train and probably get some fancy permanent items.
I'm not too familiar with silk armor, except that it sounds amusing, but it doesn't seem like it would be more absorptive than shalswar? That's what my light armor usually is.
What I've done is go for the more absorptive armors and pay for the hindrance increase by lowering the mixing penalty. My hindrance is actually lower now than before, but my armor absorption is much higher. So the change was a pretty large net gain for me.
I do like the chain shirt I'm wearing. It's better overall than the gold-linked chain shirt and the weighted lumium I've seen, even in the elementals.
It's the brigandine and plate head armors where I might could improve. The pieces I made are fine, but HCS doesn't have great elementals. I'll look into seeing how weighted lumium would work.
You have a dull iron hurling axe with a sinew-wrapped leather hilt lodged savagely into your abdomen.
You are in good shape.
I do have the money to buy nice things, but my first step is usually to reach my goals without spending too much. That's what I meant by budget. The diamond-hide and other top materials do have great looks though. Once I get to my armor/weapon goals, which aren't that far away, I'll cut back the number of skills I train and probably get some fancy permanent items.
I'm not too familiar with silk armor, except that it sounds amusing, but it doesn't seem like it would be more absorptive than shalswar? That's what my light armor usually is.
What I've done is go for the more absorptive armors and pay for the hindrance increase by lowering the mixing penalty. My hindrance is actually lower now than before, but my armor absorption is much higher. So the change was a pretty large net gain for me.
I do like the chain shirt I'm wearing. It's better overall than the gold-linked chain shirt and the weighted lumium I've seen, even in the elementals.
It's the brigandine and plate head armors where I might could improve. The pieces I made are fine, but HCS doesn't have great elementals. I'll look into seeing how weighted lumium would work.
You have a dull iron hurling axe with a sinew-wrapped leather hilt lodged savagely into your abdomen.
You are in good shape.
FRANKYFIGGS
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
12/02/2015 11:47 PM CST
kurlay sold me a super sweet plate armor set for much much less than 1k.
You feel certain that a lumium plate cuirass appears to impose moderate maneuvering hindrance and great stealth hindrance, offering:
very high protection and extreme damage absorption for puncture attacks.
very high protection and extreme damage absorption for slice attacks.
high protection and extreme damage absorption for impact attacks.
high protection and great damage absorption for fire attacks.
high protection and great damage absorption for cold attacks.
good protection and high damage absorption for electrical attacks.
If you were only wearing a lumium plate cuirass your maneuvering would be fairly hindered and your stealth would be very hindered.
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently moderately hindered and your stealth is greatly hindered.
You estimate that the plate cuirass is unusually resilient to damage, and is in pristine condition.
The plate cuirass is made with metal.
The plate cuirass has a bit of weight to it.
You believe that the plate cuirass is worth around 812587 Kronars.
I had always worn light armors prior to going full plate with light greaves. I expected to get mauled to death with a signifigantly lower plate skill, and a much crazier overall hinderance. but honestly I still got hit in light armor, with plate I get hit (cant train stealth) but most of the time the hits glance. It may not be the case when I move up further the ladder, but moving to a weighted forged set turned into positive for me as an armor tert WM.
TFPETPATH
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
12/03/2015 08:26 PM CST
I second aluminum armor. It's got that balance between protection and weight/hinderance. It's also much cheaper than kertig or damite or whatever fancy metals exist.
BENNETTJ13
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
12/03/2015 10:01 PM CST
I'd take some 6061 T6.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
LENNONJON
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
12/04/2015 05:22 AM CST
>I'd take some 6061 T6.<
Want the normal mixed set? What color should it anodize it?
--Just a Squire
Riveted to the metal is a small copper plaque depicting a shield crossed with a longsword overlaying a field of thirteen stars. Encircling the design are the words, "Many Faces - One God."
Want the normal mixed set? What color should it anodize it?
--Just a Squire
Riveted to the metal is a small copper plaque depicting a shield crossed with a longsword overlaying a field of thirteen stars. Encircling the design are the words, "Many Faces - One God."
BENNETTJ13
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
12/04/2015 05:55 PM CST
Going light with black is fine, it gives a nice purpley look in the light.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
TOMMAR
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
12/08/2015 09:31 PM CST
I train all armors for the tdps. I did some testing with an armor tert and I'm not sure why plate just isn't made into a paladin only skill. I had like 40 ranks of plate, he had mid 700's. I was insignificantly hindered and he was highly hindered in the same suit of armor (nothing fancy, light-made lumium (all plate no mixing).
I always thought that armor would eventually scale down for them it would just take a lot longer but he was saying he can't train the hinderance down any further, he just trains it for tdps. Is that true?
Is it true of other things? Like can I never get as good as a barbarian in weapons? Someone mentioned that power perception for moonies scales past other guilds as well.
I always thought that armor would eventually scale down for them it would just take a lot longer but he was saying he can't train the hinderance down any further, he just trains it for tdps. Is that true?
Is it true of other things? Like can I never get as good as a barbarian in weapons? Someone mentioned that power perception for moonies scales past other guilds as well.
ISHARON
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
12/08/2015 10:11 PM CST
>>Tommar: Is it true of other things? Like can I never get as good as a barbarian in weapons? Someone mentioned that power perception for moonies scales past other guilds as well.
Yes: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Skillsets#Skillset_Placement_Perks
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
Yes: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Skillsets#Skillset_Placement_Perks
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
BADGOPHER
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
12/09/2015 06:16 AM CST
>Is it true of other things? Like can I never get as good as a barbarian in weapons? Someone mentioned that power perception for moonies scales past other guilds as well.
MM power perception scales higher than anyone else because of the unique mana mechanic they use
MM power perception scales higher than anyone else because of the unique mana mechanic they use
BENNETTJ13
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
12/09/2015 12:21 PM CST
It's totally plausible to train all armors as a tert, as I've posted before with examples. I'm pretty sure it was even in this thread. Yes, there's a point where you can't train it down anymore, but oh well. Commit, or ditch it.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
TOMMAR
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
12/11/2015 09:55 AM CST
Reply Reply Delete Delete
>>Yes: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Skillsets#Skillset_Placement_Perks
I looked at those and I can't find any other main/tert examples where 40 ranks > 700. Seems like this is pretty busted.
All the examples have a prime mechanic perk (dual wield, snipe, large shield worn, sorcery spells) but that's pretty much where the order stops.
I understand that paladins are armor monsters but can RANK scale be adjusted so that we can reduce hinderance and not gain the same armor benefits?
Paladin at 30 ranks is insig hindered and wearing heavy plate. The stats on the plate are...4.
Thief at 30 ranks is highly hindered and wearing the same heavy plate. The stats on the plate are 2.
Thief at 800 ranks is insig hindered and wearing the same plate, the stats on the plate are 4.
Paladin at 800 ranks is insig hindered and wearing the same plate, the stats on the plate are 12.
Or can you just make this a class specific skill and throw plate ranks into exp pool for armor? This is unusable aside from tdp farming...mine as well.
Also, are there subsets? Moonmages/Clerics are magic prime but it's pretty widely known that Moonmages perc scales higher. Or has this been changed and everyone still thinks it's the same?
ISHARON
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
12/11/2015 04:13 PM CST
>>Tommar: All the examples have a prime mechanic perk (dual wield, snipe, large shield worn, sorcery spells) but that's pretty much where the order stops.
I think you're underestimating the huge benefit of magic-primary attunement (not to mention the extra spell slots and the types of spells in their arsenals). It's probably the best primary skillset placement in the game. (I've never heard any magic-primary or even magic-secondary player wish they could swap the skillset placements they have in magic and armor.)
A better comparison would be the weapon-primary skillset perks, which seem lackluster. In the weapon skillset, if you remove stats, buffs, and supernatural abilities from the equation, there is greater parity of ranks. (That is, a Barbarian with 500 ranks in the weapon doesn't necessarily outperform a weapon-tert character wielding the same weapon with 500 ranks.) On the other hand, a Paladin's 500 ranks of plate get him much lower hindrance than any other guild's 500 ranks of plate.
On first glance, this may seem lopsided, but I think it is useful to consider the nature of the armor skillset. With the exception of shield, the armor skillset consists of passive skills. During most of armor's history, there was no reason beyond TDPs to train armor once you reached minimum hindrance. So what if you could gain worthless ranks more quickly? Contrast that with other skillsets, where additional ranks directly translate into additional ability -- in those cases, a higher learning rate is a more valuable perk. That may explain why the armor skillset had to be given something extra (a reduction of penalties imposed by heavy armor) to make being armor-primary not a complete waste of skillset placement. (Even now that you can't simply train to X ranks and be done with armor, GMs have cited the lack of depth in the armor skillset as a reason that justifies skillset-based hindrance reduction.)
Instead of reducing the Paladin hindrance perk, I would like to see all primary skillset placements come with more significant perks on par with what magic-primaries have.
>>Tommar: I understand that paladins are armor monsters but can RANK scale be adjusted so that we can reduce hinderance and not gain the same armor benefits? . . . Or can you just make this a class specific skill and throw plate ranks into exp pool for armor? This is unusable aside from tdp farming...mine as well.
There was a pretty lengthy discussion of plate armor on armor-terts a while ago. In many other games, your class determines what kind of armor you can use, period. You're a World of Warcraft Mage who wants to wear heavy plate armor? Too bad. DragonRealms offers a more flexible approach, letting any character wear any armor, but there was still a design "decision to have mages favor lighter armors, and melee classes favor heavier armors."
The fact that Paladins can wear plate better than anyone else is basically a guild-defining feature of Paladins (in much the same way that having the premier AoE TM spells is a guild-defining feature of Warrior Mages).
Fundamentally, one's position on this issue usually comes down to how one views the desirability of maintaining distinct guild identities versus making DragonRealms more of a rank-based game where characters of equal ranks perform identically regardless of guild or skillset placement. I tend to favor the side of having distinct guild identities.
All that being said, there has been some discussion of looking into plate armor hindrance for non-Paladins, because plate (at least the lighter types) is still supposed to be usable by all guilds. GM Kodius mentioned something about "rewriting Hindrance (and possibly armor as a whole)" for Combat 3.2.
It also sounds like there will be enchantments that reduce hindrance. http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/Discussions%20with%20DragonRealms%20Staff%20and%20Players/Complaints/view/3865
Some GM comments on the subject of the Paladin hindrance perk:
"For the same reason Barbarians don't get AoE TM spells and Thieves aren't unable to raise risen to fight for them. It's called game design and balance. Paladins are intended to be the best at using Plate armor. Everyone else get a defensive penalty that is less than that of a capped defensive buff..." --DR-Kodius (02/02/2014)
"Paladins do get a bonus to using Plate armor as one of their extremely, extremely few Guild perks." --DR-Kodius (02/01/2014)
"Armor lacks the depth for such development. Glyphs are largely useless for a plethora of reasons. Protect/Lead means nothing to solo hunters. Auto-Bless is nice, but not guild-defining. And while you are asking for heavy armor - why NOT ask for Large shields to be armworn for everyone with enough skill?" --DR-Kodius (02/02/2014)
"Remove the hindrance penalty and everyone WOULD be a FOOL not to wear Plate. Skillsets exist for a reason folks." --DR-Kodius
"MANY RPGs completely RESTRICT armor choices to a few classes. In DR there is no restriction, but there is a penalty. It is extremely rare to see a genre with mages that can tank at all, let alone effectively." --DR-Kodius (02/02/2014)
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
I think you're underestimating the huge benefit of magic-primary attunement (not to mention the extra spell slots and the types of spells in their arsenals). It's probably the best primary skillset placement in the game. (I've never heard any magic-primary or even magic-secondary player wish they could swap the skillset placements they have in magic and armor.)
A better comparison would be the weapon-primary skillset perks, which seem lackluster. In the weapon skillset, if you remove stats, buffs, and supernatural abilities from the equation, there is greater parity of ranks. (That is, a Barbarian with 500 ranks in the weapon doesn't necessarily outperform a weapon-tert character wielding the same weapon with 500 ranks.) On the other hand, a Paladin's 500 ranks of plate get him much lower hindrance than any other guild's 500 ranks of plate.
On first glance, this may seem lopsided, but I think it is useful to consider the nature of the armor skillset. With the exception of shield, the armor skillset consists of passive skills. During most of armor's history, there was no reason beyond TDPs to train armor once you reached minimum hindrance. So what if you could gain worthless ranks more quickly? Contrast that with other skillsets, where additional ranks directly translate into additional ability -- in those cases, a higher learning rate is a more valuable perk. That may explain why the armor skillset had to be given something extra (a reduction of penalties imposed by heavy armor) to make being armor-primary not a complete waste of skillset placement. (Even now that you can't simply train to X ranks and be done with armor, GMs have cited the lack of depth in the armor skillset as a reason that justifies skillset-based hindrance reduction.)
Instead of reducing the Paladin hindrance perk, I would like to see all primary skillset placements come with more significant perks on par with what magic-primaries have.
>>Tommar: I understand that paladins are armor monsters but can RANK scale be adjusted so that we can reduce hinderance and not gain the same armor benefits? . . . Or can you just make this a class specific skill and throw plate ranks into exp pool for armor? This is unusable aside from tdp farming...mine as well.
There was a pretty lengthy discussion of plate armor on armor-terts a while ago. In many other games, your class determines what kind of armor you can use, period. You're a World of Warcraft Mage who wants to wear heavy plate armor? Too bad. DragonRealms offers a more flexible approach, letting any character wear any armor, but there was still a design "decision to have mages favor lighter armors, and melee classes favor heavier armors."
The fact that Paladins can wear plate better than anyone else is basically a guild-defining feature of Paladins (in much the same way that having the premier AoE TM spells is a guild-defining feature of Warrior Mages).
Fundamentally, one's position on this issue usually comes down to how one views the desirability of maintaining distinct guild identities versus making DragonRealms more of a rank-based game where characters of equal ranks perform identically regardless of guild or skillset placement. I tend to favor the side of having distinct guild identities.
All that being said, there has been some discussion of looking into plate armor hindrance for non-Paladins, because plate (at least the lighter types) is still supposed to be usable by all guilds. GM Kodius mentioned something about "rewriting Hindrance (and possibly armor as a whole)" for Combat 3.2.
It also sounds like there will be enchantments that reduce hindrance. http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/Discussions%20with%20DragonRealms%20Staff%20and%20Players/Complaints/view/3865
Some GM comments on the subject of the Paladin hindrance perk:
"For the same reason Barbarians don't get AoE TM spells and Thieves aren't unable to raise risen to fight for them. It's called game design and balance. Paladins are intended to be the best at using Plate armor. Everyone else get a defensive penalty that is less than that of a capped defensive buff..." --DR-Kodius (02/02/2014)
"Paladins do get a bonus to using Plate armor as one of their extremely, extremely few Guild perks." --DR-Kodius (02/01/2014)
"Armor lacks the depth for such development. Glyphs are largely useless for a plethora of reasons. Protect/Lead means nothing to solo hunters. Auto-Bless is nice, but not guild-defining. And while you are asking for heavy armor - why NOT ask for Large shields to be armworn for everyone with enough skill?" --DR-Kodius (02/02/2014)
"Remove the hindrance penalty and everyone WOULD be a FOOL not to wear Plate. Skillsets exist for a reason folks." --DR-Kodius
"MANY RPGs completely RESTRICT armor choices to a few classes. In DR there is no restriction, but there is a penalty. It is extremely rare to see a genre with mages that can tank at all, let alone effectively." --DR-Kodius (02/02/2014)
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
TOMMAR
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
12/11/2015 06:50 PM CST
>>The fact that Paladins can wear plate better than anyone else is basically a guild-defining feature of Paladins (in much the same way that having the premier AoE TM spells is a guild-defining feature of Warrior Mages).
I don't think a reduction of Paladin bonus is the answer. I also don't think that wearing large shields is anything to be scoffed at. I can honestly tell you though, I've never seen a Paladin NOT use magic in a pvp fight because their regen was too low. Every armor tert in game that pvp's doesn't use plate because it's not viable. This should be a pretty big clue.
>> With the exception of shield, the armor skillset consists of passive skills.
Spell strengths are a different conversation for a different day. I will say that almost everything you've mentioned in the strengths of magic primary falls under passive skills.
>>Fundamentally, one's position on this issue usually comes down to how one views the desirability of maintaining distinct guild identities versus making DragonRealms more of a rank-based game where characters of equal ranks perform identically regardless of guild or skillset placement. I tend to favor the side of having distinct guild identities.
I agree that guild delineation is a good thing but rank based play is pretty fundamental to Dragonrealms. It's the defining characteristic. Encouraging a path isn't the same as making it your only choice. If plate viability doesn't change, what's the argument for keeping it as a game-wide skill? There are no arguments to make attunement or targeted magic a guild-specific ability. There is delineation in those without making it completely useless to everyone else.
Plate's completely worthless right now for both armor secondaries and armor terts. I've been reading up on it and there's literally no benefit to wearing a viable set of plate that isn't completely eclipsed by the hinderance (and consequences of that hinderance). That isn't to say you CAN'T wear it. You can get some paper-thin plate that doesn't protect as well as ultra-leather armor and limp along under a mountain of hinderance.
If you can articulate that there is any skill that matches that degree of 'guild identity' I'd be pretty surprised. 300 ranks of stampede might not hit as hard as 300 ranks of burn, but it'll still hit as often.
Plate for everyone maybe isn't the answer. Maybe just make it an armor class only viable to Paladins. It IS broken though.
I don't think a reduction of Paladin bonus is the answer. I also don't think that wearing large shields is anything to be scoffed at. I can honestly tell you though, I've never seen a Paladin NOT use magic in a pvp fight because their regen was too low. Every armor tert in game that pvp's doesn't use plate because it's not viable. This should be a pretty big clue.
>> With the exception of shield, the armor skillset consists of passive skills.
Spell strengths are a different conversation for a different day. I will say that almost everything you've mentioned in the strengths of magic primary falls under passive skills.
>>Fundamentally, one's position on this issue usually comes down to how one views the desirability of maintaining distinct guild identities versus making DragonRealms more of a rank-based game where characters of equal ranks perform identically regardless of guild or skillset placement. I tend to favor the side of having distinct guild identities.
I agree that guild delineation is a good thing but rank based play is pretty fundamental to Dragonrealms. It's the defining characteristic. Encouraging a path isn't the same as making it your only choice. If plate viability doesn't change, what's the argument for keeping it as a game-wide skill? There are no arguments to make attunement or targeted magic a guild-specific ability. There is delineation in those without making it completely useless to everyone else.
Plate's completely worthless right now for both armor secondaries and armor terts. I've been reading up on it and there's literally no benefit to wearing a viable set of plate that isn't completely eclipsed by the hinderance (and consequences of that hinderance). That isn't to say you CAN'T wear it. You can get some paper-thin plate that doesn't protect as well as ultra-leather armor and limp along under a mountain of hinderance.
If you can articulate that there is any skill that matches that degree of 'guild identity' I'd be pretty surprised. 300 ranks of stampede might not hit as hard as 300 ranks of burn, but it'll still hit as often.
Plate for everyone maybe isn't the answer. Maybe just make it an armor class only viable to Paladins. It IS broken though.
TOMMAR
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
12/11/2015 07:04 PM CST
I guess my main problem with it currently is that if a Paladin wanted to be a stealthy, targeted magic using super-weirdo. They could. It wouldn't be easy, it would completely tank all the skills they're best in but if they persevered...they could do it and only because there isn't an amorphous skill-cap holding them back. 1000 ranks of TM on a paladin isn't going to be stopped by 40 ranks of warding on a cleric.
I don't care if it's a double post.
SHADOWCHIEF2
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
12/11/2015 07:29 PM CST
There's a lot of people that have been sour over this topic over the years, Its nothing new. I'd like to see things tweaked a bit when paladins guild only skill comes out. Maybe take say what hindrance a tert has currently with full plate setup, take hindrance of a paladin currently and meet in the middle for baseline. Then paladin guild only skill would allow for more reduction based on skill. That way it wouldn't be impossible for a tert to use it since it would be somewhat better baseline, while still allowing for primaries and secondaries to have an advantage over them. Allow secondaries a hindrance boosting ability, maybe terts a way to cast it as sorcery. Paladins already have other armor boosting capabilities right? Does Divine armor still boost the stats on armor?
BADGOPHER
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
12/11/2015 07:41 PM CST
>I guess my main problem with it currently is that if a Paladin wanted to be a stealthy, targeted magic using super-weirdo.
Can't the same be said for anyone wearing plate though? You're ignoring the penalties a Paladin would face to the magic skillset (fewer feats, lower mana pool, lower regen rates) when compared to not-tertiary guilds.
Can't the same be said for anyone wearing plate though? You're ignoring the penalties a Paladin would face to the magic skillset (fewer feats, lower mana pool, lower regen rates) when compared to not-tertiary guilds.
ISHARON
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
12/11/2015 09:10 PM CST
>>Tommar: I can honestly tell you though, I've never seen a Paladin NOT use magic in a pvp fight because their regen was too low. Every armor tert in game that pvp's doesn't use plate because it's not viable. This should be a pretty big clue.
Even in PvP, Paladin magic is mostly about buffing (and to a lesser extent, warding). Being a serious Paladin magic user involves carefully managing your limited attunement.
>>Tommar: I will say that almost everything you've mentioned in the strengths of magic primary falls under passive skills.
Armor skills are passive in the sense that you merely wear the armor (and for most of the game's history, more ranks in armor did nothing but grant TDPs). Most of the magic skills are active. Having more ranks means that you can channel more mana into spells, making them more powerful; more ranks also allow you to use more powerful spells. And in attunement, more ranks result in having more available mana, and rank-for-rank, magic-tert attunement comes nowhere close to magic-primary attunement.
How do you develop the armor skillset where ranks matter enough to say that better learning is more of a meaningful perk? Are there any ways to make armor more active (thereby making room for other perks to compensate for a reduction in the one thing that armor-primary currently has going for it)?
If you reduce hindrance, how do you balance plate armor so that it's not always the best choice for all (non-stealthy) characters? Or as Kodius once asked, "What penalty would sufficiently balance Heavier Armors and prevent everyone from using them all of the time?"
>>Tommar: I agree that guild delineation is a good thing but rank based play is pretty fundamental to Dragonrealms. It's the defining characteristic.
DragonRealms has always been a combination of class- and rank-based performance. Skillset placement is an important component of game balance, and not just for learning rates.
>>Tommar: Plate's completely worthless right now for both armor secondaries and armor terts. I've been reading up on it and there's literally no benefit to wearing a viable set of plate that isn't completely eclipsed by the hinderance (and consequences of that hinderance). That isn't to say you CAN'T wear it. You can get some paper-thin plate that doesn't protect as well as ultra-leather armor and limp along under a mountain of hinderance.
I think that plate (at least the lighter types) should be viable for armor-terts -- not optimal but at least doable. GMs agree too. They think that plate is already viable for armor-terts, while most armor-terts report that anything approaching a full suit of plate starts being fatal at a certain point in the game. GMs are aware of this and have expressed intentions of reviewing hindrance. (And as stated before, future enchantments may improve the plate outlook for armor-terts.)
>>Tommar: If you can articulate that there is any skill that matches that degree of 'guild identity' I'd be pretty surprised. 300 ranks of stampede might not hit as hard as 300 ranks of burn, but it'll still hit as often.
I would say that targeted magic for Warrior Mages -- particularly AoE targeted magic -- comes close. While other guilds have access to some targeted spells, no other guild can match the versatility of Warrior Mage targeted magic. Survival-primary stealth is far better than survival-secondary or tertiary stealth.
I think, however, looking at a single skill in isolation is not quite an apples-to-apples comparison. One must look at the bigger picture, including the full suite of abilities available to each guild (access to which is partly determined by skillset placement). Using the Warrior Mage example, they don't just have the most versatile set of targeted spells. They also have elemental weapons, familiars, and other abilities.
For Paladins, once you remove their proficiency with heavy armor, they currently have little guild identity. As Kodius put it, "Glyphs are largely useless for a plethora of reasons. Protect/Lead means nothing to solo hunters. Auto-Bless is nice, but not guild-defining."
A big part of the issue is that, in the absence of a Paladin guild advocate, Clerics have been allowed to gradually chip away at the Paladin wheelhouse such that much of what Paladins would traditionally do in other games (warrior of the gods, smiter of undead and necromancy) is already done by Clerics as well as can be allowed. GMs have long acknowledged this issue, and while there has been some discussion of possible Paladin development, it seems like it's in limbo for the foreseeable future. That pretty much leaves Paladins as "the guild that shines in heavy armor."
>>Tommar: I guess my main problem with it currently is that if a Paladin wanted to be a stealthy, targeted magic using super-weirdo. They could. It wouldn't be easy, it would completely tank all the skills they're best in but if they persevered...they could do it and only because there isn't an amorphous skill-cap holding them back. 1000 ranks of TM on a paladin isn't going to be stopped by 40 ranks of warding on a cleric.
The grass is always greener.
A stealthy Paladin is more of a novelty concept than a viable option -- and certainly no better than an armor-tert in plate. First of all, many players report that stealth is difficult to train at level without stealth buffs, which Paladins lack. Even if you put a Paladin in cloth armor (making him rely more on the tertiary defense of evasion), doing anything while hidden tanks the Paladin soul state. Not only does this diminish the effectiveness of many of their abilities, but it also prevents them from undertaking quests until the soul is purified.
The outlook for a TM Paladin is not quite as bleak, but there are only four targeted magic spells that they can permanently learn (including Strange Arrow). And with their limited attunement, sustained TM use (not just min casts for training) can be a challenge.
>>Shadowchief2: Paladins already have other armor boosting capabilities right? Does Divine armor still boost the stats on armor?
Divine Armor is the only Paladin ability that boosts worn armor. It boosts the protection and absorption stats. Unfortunately, GMs have said that armor is already "borderline making people invulnerable." They can't improve Divine Armor or armor protection (as a possible alternative to the hindrance perk) without breaking game balance.
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Even in PvP, Paladin magic is mostly about buffing (and to a lesser extent, warding). Being a serious Paladin magic user involves carefully managing your limited attunement.
>>Tommar: I will say that almost everything you've mentioned in the strengths of magic primary falls under passive skills.
Armor skills are passive in the sense that you merely wear the armor (and for most of the game's history, more ranks in armor did nothing but grant TDPs). Most of the magic skills are active. Having more ranks means that you can channel more mana into spells, making them more powerful; more ranks also allow you to use more powerful spells. And in attunement, more ranks result in having more available mana, and rank-for-rank, magic-tert attunement comes nowhere close to magic-primary attunement.
How do you develop the armor skillset where ranks matter enough to say that better learning is more of a meaningful perk? Are there any ways to make armor more active (thereby making room for other perks to compensate for a reduction in the one thing that armor-primary currently has going for it)?
If you reduce hindrance, how do you balance plate armor so that it's not always the best choice for all (non-stealthy) characters? Or as Kodius once asked, "What penalty would sufficiently balance Heavier Armors and prevent everyone from using them all of the time?"
>>Tommar: I agree that guild delineation is a good thing but rank based play is pretty fundamental to Dragonrealms. It's the defining characteristic.
DragonRealms has always been a combination of class- and rank-based performance. Skillset placement is an important component of game balance, and not just for learning rates.
>>Tommar: Plate's completely worthless right now for both armor secondaries and armor terts. I've been reading up on it and there's literally no benefit to wearing a viable set of plate that isn't completely eclipsed by the hinderance (and consequences of that hinderance). That isn't to say you CAN'T wear it. You can get some paper-thin plate that doesn't protect as well as ultra-leather armor and limp along under a mountain of hinderance.
I think that plate (at least the lighter types) should be viable for armor-terts -- not optimal but at least doable. GMs agree too. They think that plate is already viable for armor-terts, while most armor-terts report that anything approaching a full suit of plate starts being fatal at a certain point in the game. GMs are aware of this and have expressed intentions of reviewing hindrance. (And as stated before, future enchantments may improve the plate outlook for armor-terts.)
>>Tommar: If you can articulate that there is any skill that matches that degree of 'guild identity' I'd be pretty surprised. 300 ranks of stampede might not hit as hard as 300 ranks of burn, but it'll still hit as often.
I would say that targeted magic for Warrior Mages -- particularly AoE targeted magic -- comes close. While other guilds have access to some targeted spells, no other guild can match the versatility of Warrior Mage targeted magic. Survival-primary stealth is far better than survival-secondary or tertiary stealth.
I think, however, looking at a single skill in isolation is not quite an apples-to-apples comparison. One must look at the bigger picture, including the full suite of abilities available to each guild (access to which is partly determined by skillset placement). Using the Warrior Mage example, they don't just have the most versatile set of targeted spells. They also have elemental weapons, familiars, and other abilities.
For Paladins, once you remove their proficiency with heavy armor, they currently have little guild identity. As Kodius put it, "Glyphs are largely useless for a plethora of reasons. Protect/Lead means nothing to solo hunters. Auto-Bless is nice, but not guild-defining."
A big part of the issue is that, in the absence of a Paladin guild advocate, Clerics have been allowed to gradually chip away at the Paladin wheelhouse such that much of what Paladins would traditionally do in other games (warrior of the gods, smiter of undead and necromancy) is already done by Clerics as well as can be allowed. GMs have long acknowledged this issue, and while there has been some discussion of possible Paladin development, it seems like it's in limbo for the foreseeable future. That pretty much leaves Paladins as "the guild that shines in heavy armor."
>>Tommar: I guess my main problem with it currently is that if a Paladin wanted to be a stealthy, targeted magic using super-weirdo. They could. It wouldn't be easy, it would completely tank all the skills they're best in but if they persevered...they could do it and only because there isn't an amorphous skill-cap holding them back. 1000 ranks of TM on a paladin isn't going to be stopped by 40 ranks of warding on a cleric.
The grass is always greener.
A stealthy Paladin is more of a novelty concept than a viable option -- and certainly no better than an armor-tert in plate. First of all, many players report that stealth is difficult to train at level without stealth buffs, which Paladins lack. Even if you put a Paladin in cloth armor (making him rely more on the tertiary defense of evasion), doing anything while hidden tanks the Paladin soul state. Not only does this diminish the effectiveness of many of their abilities, but it also prevents them from undertaking quests until the soul is purified.
The outlook for a TM Paladin is not quite as bleak, but there are only four targeted magic spells that they can permanently learn (including Strange Arrow). And with their limited attunement, sustained TM use (not just min casts for training) can be a challenge.
>>Shadowchief2: Paladins already have other armor boosting capabilities right? Does Divine armor still boost the stats on armor?
Divine Armor is the only Paladin ability that boosts worn armor. It boosts the protection and absorption stats. Unfortunately, GMs have said that armor is already "borderline making people invulnerable." They can't improve Divine Armor or armor protection (as a possible alternative to the hindrance perk) without breaking game balance.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
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TOMMAR
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
12/11/2015 09:48 PM CST
>>Even in PvP, Paladin magic is mostly about buffing (and to a lesser extent, warding). Being a serious Paladin magic user involves carefully managing your limited attunement.
This is the crux of the argument. Class specific spells and abilities that separate the different guilds is where the differences should lie. Not rank caps. Warmages get versitile TM spells, thieves get a snipe and a backstab and so on and so on.
Guild differences and bonuses should rely on spells and abilities, not rank caps. Ablative warding, armor buffs, hinderance reduction. Those should all be in the purview of Paladins. Rank capping is a lazy fix.
I still haven't heard an argument for keeping plate a game-wide skill. As I'm reading up on it, brigandine might be applicable to that as well.
For the third time, I'm not arguing that paladins shouldn't be 'the' armor guild. I'm not saying that their buffs are unfair. I'm saying the game-wide removal of viability in a rank based skill is broken. It needs to be fixed or it needs to be refunded as exp pool. If that latter happens, someone needs to look at and re-evaluate brigandine so that maybe armor secondaries can use it.
>>How do you develop the armor skillset where ranks matter enough to say that better learning is more of a meaningful perk? Are there any ways to make armor more active (thereby making room for other perks to compensate for a reduction in the one thing that armor-primary currently has going for it)?
I gave an example of this. If that isn't a good option, I'd like to hear your ideas for it.
I hear your argument "Paladins, Paladins, Paladins!" But a rank-based skill shouldn't be the go-to work-horse for that argument. "If you could use it, what would we do?" Paladins are HOT right now. Everyone loves them for PVP. There's a reason. We're not underpowered, lacking in depth or in any other way weak. It was a quick fix to a balancing problem but it needs to be fixed itself.
If you're a fan of the current system, we probably shouldn't be arguing. But if you have ideas and input for a fix, I'd love to hear it. Mine is a rank-based increase in the worn armors stats for Paladins (capping appropriately) and no one else, a slower decrease in hinderance for all non-primes and a spellbook that's geared towards ablative warding, hinderance reduction, shield proficiency and armor enhancement (which it is).
This is the crux of the argument. Class specific spells and abilities that separate the different guilds is where the differences should lie. Not rank caps. Warmages get versitile TM spells, thieves get a snipe and a backstab and so on and so on.
Guild differences and bonuses should rely on spells and abilities, not rank caps. Ablative warding, armor buffs, hinderance reduction. Those should all be in the purview of Paladins. Rank capping is a lazy fix.
I still haven't heard an argument for keeping plate a game-wide skill. As I'm reading up on it, brigandine might be applicable to that as well.
For the third time, I'm not arguing that paladins shouldn't be 'the' armor guild. I'm not saying that their buffs are unfair. I'm saying the game-wide removal of viability in a rank based skill is broken. It needs to be fixed or it needs to be refunded as exp pool. If that latter happens, someone needs to look at and re-evaluate brigandine so that maybe armor secondaries can use it.
>>How do you develop the armor skillset where ranks matter enough to say that better learning is more of a meaningful perk? Are there any ways to make armor more active (thereby making room for other perks to compensate for a reduction in the one thing that armor-primary currently has going for it)?
I gave an example of this. If that isn't a good option, I'd like to hear your ideas for it.
I hear your argument "Paladins, Paladins, Paladins!" But a rank-based skill shouldn't be the go-to work-horse for that argument. "If you could use it, what would we do?" Paladins are HOT right now. Everyone loves them for PVP. There's a reason. We're not underpowered, lacking in depth or in any other way weak. It was a quick fix to a balancing problem but it needs to be fixed itself.
If you're a fan of the current system, we probably shouldn't be arguing. But if you have ideas and input for a fix, I'd love to hear it. Mine is a rank-based increase in the worn armors stats for Paladins (capping appropriately) and no one else, a slower decrease in hinderance for all non-primes and a spellbook that's geared towards ablative warding, hinderance reduction, shield proficiency and armor enhancement (which it is).
COLDLIGHT
Re: Heavy plate on armor terts.
12/11/2015 11:10 PM CST
>I still haven't heard an argument for keeping plate a game-wide skill. As I'm reading up on it, brigandine might be applicable to that as well.
One reason it will never happen is it would give Paladins 2-3 guild-only skills. The GMs have a mindset to equalize such things, which is why guilds without guild-only skills were given one.
Granted that's not a conceptual way of looking at it (which is what I think you're looking for) but more of a game balance design thing. But it can affect game changes nonetheless.
One reason it will never happen is it would give Paladins 2-3 guild-only skills. The GMs have a mindset to equalize such things, which is why guilds without guild-only skills were given one.
Granted that's not a conceptual way of looking at it (which is what I think you're looking for) but more of a game balance design thing. But it can affect game changes nonetheless.
