Kodius,

Is there any chance you'd look back at the Heavy Edge templates? As it stands they don't really fill the gap between small and two-handed weapons like they should. At the balance levels Heavy Edges come in, you would be better off using a Two-Handed Edge. As far as puncture weapons, a Heavy Edge puncture weapon is really just comparable to a Medium Edge puncture weapon. I always wanted a forged cinqueda before the system came out, and now I'm wishing I had trained Medium Edge instead.

> squint dragon
You squint at a dragon.

I agree with TZimerman. Other than the broadsword template, HE seems pretty much like garbage to me. Medium Edge is only slightly worse, often with better balance. Caraamon informed me that in 3.0 a weapon will do damage based on all of its damage types rather than just 1, which makes the other HE templates more interesting if it's true, although I'm really not sure I won't just prefer a rapier.

Maybe if it had a nicely balanced slicer...I had some nimshas made and was underwhelmed by all of them.

IIRC when combat 3.0 comes out two-handed weapons are going to get very much the short end of the stick when it comes to using shields.

Even if you could use an arm-worn shield with them the weapon(or the shield forgot which) will be severely penalized
_______________________
As good almost kill a man as kill a good book; who kills a man kills a reasonable creature, God's image; but he who destroys a good book, kills reason itself, kills the image of God, as it were in the eye.
-John Milton

<<HE and 2HE will be the same skill, though.>>

No, they will not.

Yamcer

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"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF

but he's right. The skill sets for bladed weapons are going to be small blades (LE and ME), heavy blades (HE), and Two handed blades (THE)

http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Post:Updated_Skill_List_-_12/11/2010_-_15:45:26



Illimin

Thanks. I searched for that list for about ten minutes on elanthipedia and google to try and confirm, but I couldn't find it.

*******
Malkien

I doubt anyone has gone through the effort to make a tyrium broadsword.

Though for what its worth, when the skill mergers were announced, I advocated merging HE and ME since they were pretty much similar anyways.

_______________________
As good almost kill a man as kill a good book; who kills a man kills a reasonable creature, God's image; but he who destroys a good book, kills reason itself, kills the image of God, as it were in the eye.
-John Milton

>>The thing that I have never understood is why you can have an ME and HE that are the same weight!?

>>Weapon "type" or now their templates should have capped weights on them. It doesn't make any sense to have a 100 stone scimitar. That is not a MEDIUM edged weapon, it's a telephone pole. You don't hold a blade with two hands because it's light.

Well each template does effectively have a cap on weight, since they have a set volume and the densities can only range between 3 and 7.5. So the heaviest scimitar you could make with steel would be 37 stones, and the heaviest using a rare metal like kertig or haralun would be 53. Broadswords would have their weights capped at higher values, although the range of which weights are possible has a lot of overlap since Scimitars are 6 volume and Broadswords are only 7.

Apu
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http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Apu

<<I don't know. Seems odd that a you can have a medium edged weapon that weighs more than a 2HE.

Not really. Its all about metal density. A scimitar made out of gold is clearly going to weigh a lot more than a greatsword made out of aluminum. Obviously extreme examples, but they serve to illustrate the point. Related to that, a scimitar made out of the same metal as a broadsword will always weigh less.

-Evran

Moongate, Ressurection, and Fire Rain, Oh my!

I think what really leaves Heavy Edged without a hole to fill is both the special metal MEs we're seeing that are pretty fantastic AND the bump that blunts got. You can forge yourself a pretty brutally hard hitting heavy edged at the moment, it's not going to have much balance. And you can easily get a heavy blunt that has a couple of tiers higher of impact damage with just about the same balance. So if you want balance, you go ME, and if you want damage you go HB and if you want to be cute maybe you go Heavy Edged?

and in some cases lighter than an ME
_______________________
As good almost kill a man as kill a good book; who kills a man kills a reasonable creature, God's image; but he who destroys a good book, kills reason itself, kills the image of God, as it were in the eye.
-John Milton

From the data I have, it looks like a 5 density/7 volume ME is "worse" than a 5 density/7 volume HE... so I'm not sure how HE isn't coming out on top.

5d/6v ME: 3/9/4 6/6 OR 9/3/4 7/5
5d/7v ME: 3/7/6 4/7
5d/7v HE: 2/9/6 4/8 OR 2/10/5 5/7
5d/8v HE: 5/8/5 6/6 OR 9/6/3 6/6*

*at 3.8d that would become 9/5/2 7/5... which would essentially be the same weight as the 5d/6v's jabber

If there was a lack of HE templates, I would reference the general lack of [non-swappable] HE or ANY kind of blade with volumes of 10 and 11. HE goes from 7-9, swappable HE/2HE are 8-9, but 2HE doesn't start until 12.

So maybe a 10 volume HE could be necessary.

>>Or you just use an old forged HE, and you can have high balance with almost as good damage as HB.

What HE are you talking about? The new forged HE's seem better to me than the old ones, they have more impact and more balance on the heavy end.

>>And you can easily get a heavy blunt that has a couple of tiers higher of impact damage with just about the same balance.

When you compare HE and HB you have to remember the HB's throw most of their eggs into the impact basket, while HE throws them into all 3 of the damage categories, You can't expect an HE to have extreme slice AND have decent impact. It would be like extreme slice and poor impact.

With that said i do see the point of the OP, it isn't THAT much different than ME. They are basically just a few points apart damage wise. So I guess I would throw my vote in the hat that HE could stand to use a mild bump in their caps.

>>So maybe a 10 volume HE could be necessary.

I could see this happening as well.

Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons

What in blue blazes are you all talking about.

Look at this chart. I've hand selected the top end models of each weapon class as according to Caraamon's forging sheet on Elanthipedia.

LE - 2/7/6 4/9 at 31 stones = 28 total point value
ME - 3/10/5 5/7 at 37 stones = 30 total point value
HE - 2/11/6 5/8 at 44 stones = 32 total point value
HE - 10/7/4 6/7 at 50 stones = 34 total point value
HE - 1/11/10 2/10 at 56 stones = 34 total point value
HB - 5/0/15 3/9 at 69 stones = 32 total point value
2HE - 3/19/13 2/12 at 107 stones = 49 total point value

The total point progression scales from 28(LE Dao) to 30(ME Scimitar) to 32(HE Broadsword) to 34(HE Cinqueda) and 34(HE Flachion).

As you can see, between LE and ME is 2 points and between ME and a lightweight HE is 2 points. You can get a heavier HE weapon which has a total point value of 34, which is 4 points over ME. HE actually out-does Heavy Blunt in terms of point total for HB's heaviest weapon the Ukabi. While the Ukabi does have one of its damage values at 15, its total point value is actually less than that of a Cinqueda or Flachion and is on par with a standard broadsword.

Are you seriously comparing HE to 2HE? Let's look at the numbers.

The total point value of the heaviest 2HE I could find is a mere 49. Keep in mind, when using a 2HE in the future your ability to use a shield will be extremely limited. Also take into account that you cannot dual wield with a two handed weapon. So let's say a Barbarian is dual wielding two Flachions. All of a sudden this Barbarian is wielding a total weapon point value of 68 because each Flachion has a total point value of 34.

tl;dr The real issue is that you want Heavy Edge to be like Heavy Blunt and have 0 impact, 5 puncture and 15 slice damage. BUT if you'll remember what Kodius/Dart/Someone-Else said, this kind of damage extreme won't necessarily be as desirable in the new system as they are in the present system.

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~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com

>>P.S. by total point value I mean puncture + slice + impact + balance + suitedness.<<

This is exactly how I buy my weapons, and offset a little bit by weight. My character doesn't have the strength/stamina/agility to swing the heaviest weapons just yet.

Yesterday I took delivery of a ton of Caraamon's weapons that I'd already been using prior to his discovery of the durability bug. Every weapon was worth every copper I spent... and I spent a few coppers. I now use the new forging HE vice the old one because it's simply better. The same could be said for all the weapons, actually. And the HE is quite a bit better than the ME.

Weapons I took delivery of from Caraamon yesterday include:

LE - Falcata
ME - Scimitar
HE - Broadsword
2HE - Two Handed Sword
LB - Bludgeon
MB - Mace
HB - Heavy Mallet
2HB - Dire Mace
Pike - Pike
Halberd - Khuj
QS - Staff
SS - Nightstick
LT - Bola (x2)
HT - Hhr'ata (x2)
Brawling Gear: Spiked Knuckles, Knee Spikes, Elbow Spikes

Yup, spent a lot of money on them (though not as much as I expected) and yes all of my previous weapons were forged under the old system with the exception of those that couldn't be made at the time. I haven't found a single old system weapon that outperforms the new ones as far as damage output.


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We've decided that instead of spells Paladins will be a new arm of the Bard guild utilizing interpretive dance moves.

~GM Zeyurn

Yeah, the analysis of HE as being relatively weak as a weapon set is entirely dependent on how new combat handles the different damage types. If they become equally important, then weapons will no longer be considered "a slicing" or "a jabbing" weapon, and leilond's analysis is correct. But for now I maintain that other than the broadsword HE isn't very worthwhile.

>>If they become equally important, then weapons will no longer be considered "a slicing" or "a jabbing" weapon, and leilond's analysis is correct.

I don't buy that analysis for a second. Why even have Puncture, Slice and Impact as separate stats if the damage from each adds together like that? Why have different types of attacks like thrust, slice, bash, if the puncture/slice/impact stats don't matter?

At that point you may as well just change weapons to have one number called DPS and we can all rightclick on mobs to start an autoattack sequence like Vanilla WoW Ret Paladins

Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Apu

>>At that point you may as well just change weapons to have one number called DPS and we can all rightclick on mobs to start an autoattack sequence like Vanilla WoW Ret Paladins

Well as long as we're not being too hyperbolic.

I think there's room for both weapons that are really good at X as well as weapons that are really good at being well-rounded in the new forging and with whatever combat 3.0 ends up being. With the previous forging system, everyone pretty much wanted to ditch two of the damage types in order to maximize the third. I'd consider that more "oh god the DPS is upon us" more than the current forging system.

Beyond that, it's not like all the damage types should not add up in the end. But thinking it will go "1+2+3 = 6 points of damage!" is a bit short sighted. The attack will also take into account how much each one is reduced by armor, then how much damage is absorbed by the armor, and that's probably taking place after parry and evasion and shield checks, and let's not forget any other modifiers like flaming swords and the armor checks there, or whatever modifiers will happen based on how heavy (or light?) the weapon is, and in addition to that there might be things like MAF or HP going on... or who knows some weapons might be more geared toward doing physical damage than vit damage or vit damage over physical damage or cause bleeders over either of those...

Acting like people going "well all the stats equal X so that's good" means everything is going to be boring and automated is a bit silly.

(Acting like combat is this incredibly dynamic and non-scripted event for many players right now is a bit silly, also. So, at worst, we're staying still, not regressing.)

I'm sorry, but my point was merely to address the total point progression of the weapon types and to highlight what the crafting system is actually based on when climbing the weapon size scale.

Like I said before, your issue isn't with Heavy Edge being subpar in terms of points. Your issue is the fact that Heavy Edge has spread its points across multiple damage types, which is in contrast to Heavy Blunt which has lumped all of its damage into the Impact basket.

Rather than saying "Heavy Edge sucks!" I would think you should inquire with Kodius or perhaps Dartenian as to how the spread out damage will function in Combat 3.0, and whether or not these weapons with the spread out damage will be as effective as weapons with isolated extreme damage types.

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~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com

somewhere... there was a post by Kodius that I believe talked about damage/second.

I think I could be way off, but I believe it went something like:

Same Metals used across similar weapon types over different classes of weapons should result in the same damage per second.

Meaning an LE "slicer" compared to a ME "slicer" to a HE "slicer" all made of HC steel should all provide the same amount of damage potential across an equal time period.

But I could be completely mis-remembering.

The second thing I think people are just starting to touch on is the complexity of the the heralded combat 3.0!

I believe different armor types will have different resistances (as will critters, although some do now). As a totally made up example: against a paladin in full plate you might want the hammer of whomping impact because slicing won't do jack against plate; but against a ranger in padded leather, the impact will be reduced much more and therefore you should use your slicer of dewm to cut through the hide; in chain mail, those neither smushy nor slicey will cut it, and you need to fill those little holes with your pokey stick. Most likely, if you are in cloth, you better stay hidden.

Finally, I'm guess that stamina, shields, stealth encumbrance, and overall hindrance will play a huge part in picking both weapons and armor.

I'm sure someone will take this mess of a post and explain it better.

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Player of Diggan, Ranger & Halfing of Aesry