I am not sure if I am the only one who has this opinion, but I feel offhand is a little bland, and asides for some thrown mechanics while using weapons or the like, it really doesn't give a great feel of fighting with two weapons.
Honestly, I would think it would be fun to have the dual wield work as a chance to strike with both weapons or once with the main hand and once with the offhand based upon your skill level. For an easy example, if you have 100 in offhand, it would give a 10% chance to automatically attack with the offhand when using your main hand. So either it could be a dual strike type attack on activation, or have it attack with the main hand then follow with the offhand mirroring that attack. The numbers can be changed based upon your guilds weapon tier, or the weapons themselves. Easier to attack with two small daggers over and over than swinging around two giant broadswords. But that is where the benefits of being a primary or secondary weapons guild would shine. Just my opinion, but it would be fun to have a dual wielding berserker type feel for my barbarian, or never ending cascade of strikes for thieves.
FATBOY30269
ABSOLON
Re: Idea for Offhand/dual wield
10/02/2015 05:39 PM CDT
Try MANEUVER DOUBLESTRIKE if you haven't yet.
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TEVESHSZAT
Re: Idea for Offhand/dual wield
10/02/2015 08:11 PM CDT
>>Try MANEUVER DOUBLESTRIKE if you haven't yet.
Along with the 100% success rate of doublestrike... double striking, I believe your offhand skill also influences if the other melee maneuvers doublestrike. I've had cleave and crash get a bonus offhand weapon strike at times.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Along with the 100% success rate of doublestrike... double striking, I believe your offhand skill also influences if the other melee maneuvers doublestrike. I've had cleave and crash get a bonus offhand weapon strike at times.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
FATBOY30269
Re: Idea for Offhand/dual wield
10/03/2015 01:52 PM CDT
I've used the maneuvers and they are fun, but after you use them the other weapon becomes useless once again until you can use the maneuvers again. Would honestly like the feel of dual wielding to actually be used in say your combos rather than have it be a requirement for a skill usage then go back to uselessness.
DBABIASH
Re: Idea for Offhand/dual wield
10/05/2015 10:02 AM CDT
There is always a fine balance that has to take place in games over realism and game/mechanical balance. I think that is really where dual-wielding is right now. Without knowing the actual numbers, I think the problem is the way the weapon sets are currently balanced. Two handed weapons do more damage per swing, but are heavier and slower, and lighter weapons (the sorts that you would be using for dual wielding) don't hit as heavy, but swing faster to make up for it. The result is that they /should/ equal out in damage per second (DPS).
So where does that leave dual wielding? In most games, it is a different flavor of DPS than two handed is. In DR though, if the weapons are already balanced as they are against one another, providing /any/ level of DPS buff to dual wielding will either make it clearly outclass two handed weapons, or require a re-balancing of light weapons to account for the added DPS of dual wield (which has its own implications).
Now, what about realism? Well, most people take the above "most games" interpretation as "realistic," simply because it makes logical sense. But if you have ever been good at something technical (cooking, STEM, fighting, etc.), you know that a layperson's logical sense often does not equal the true nature of that field. Now, I am not even close to an expert, but I have recently gotten into Armizare (a form of Historical European Martial Arts (HEMA)), which is an Italian late-Medieval martial art. The bottom line is that the dual wielding you see in most games really has no basis in real life. Realistic dual wielding involves a long and short weapon (the best example being a rapier and dagger), and the advantage was in ability to parry and very effective counter attacks. Could that be implemented into DR somehow? I can't answer that, though it would be cool if it could. Can anything be done to make it more in line with the high-DPS form seen in most games? I think it is pretty impractical to do so.
So where does that leave dual wielding? In most games, it is a different flavor of DPS than two handed is. In DR though, if the weapons are already balanced as they are against one another, providing /any/ level of DPS buff to dual wielding will either make it clearly outclass two handed weapons, or require a re-balancing of light weapons to account for the added DPS of dual wield (which has its own implications).
Now, what about realism? Well, most people take the above "most games" interpretation as "realistic," simply because it makes logical sense. But if you have ever been good at something technical (cooking, STEM, fighting, etc.), you know that a layperson's logical sense often does not equal the true nature of that field. Now, I am not even close to an expert, but I have recently gotten into Armizare (a form of Historical European Martial Arts (HEMA)), which is an Italian late-Medieval martial art. The bottom line is that the dual wielding you see in most games really has no basis in real life. Realistic dual wielding involves a long and short weapon (the best example being a rapier and dagger), and the advantage was in ability to parry and very effective counter attacks. Could that be implemented into DR somehow? I can't answer that, though it would be cool if it could. Can anything be done to make it more in line with the high-DPS form seen in most games? I think it is pretty impractical to do so.
WILLARDR
Re: Idea for Offhand/dual wield
10/05/2015 10:58 AM CDT
There have been many great suggestions over the years for dual wielding.
> Realistic dual wielding involves a long and short weapon (the best example being a rapier and dagger), and the advantage was in ability to parry and very effective counter attacks.
While I like the idea of counter strikes and all it would make it automatic system if such counter strikes reacted actively in combat as your opponent strikes. This however would not be a good thing. One option that came to mind quickly
would be an analyze option (Analyze dual). Then for the next X seconds if an attack comes in, there would be a additional line for what counter strike to follow up with.
Analyze dual
You maneuver into a ready position preparing yourself to seek out counter strike options
Roundtime: X seconds
A fledgling forest gryphon rakes a set of large, sharp claws at you. You attempt to evade.
The claw lands a light hit to your neck.
With a duelists eye, you notice that an effective counter could be landed with a Jab followed up with a Slice
[You're bruised, nimbly balanced with no advantage.]
I don't know about system limitations for requiring specific moves to be utilized by main hand vs. offhand. If however tracking which hand the strike needs to come from is possible that could be an improvement as well.
What should the pros and cons be of Analyze dual?
Balance positive, increased chance to parry, penalty to shield
> Realistic dual wielding involves a long and short weapon (the best example being a rapier and dagger), and the advantage was in ability to parry and very effective counter attacks.
While I like the idea of counter strikes and all it would make it automatic system if such counter strikes reacted actively in combat as your opponent strikes. This however would not be a good thing. One option that came to mind quickly
would be an analyze option (Analyze dual). Then for the next X seconds if an attack comes in, there would be a additional line for what counter strike to follow up with.
Analyze dual
You maneuver into a ready position preparing yourself to seek out counter strike options
Roundtime: X seconds
A fledgling forest gryphon rakes a set of large, sharp claws at you. You attempt to evade.
The claw lands a light hit to your neck.
With a duelists eye, you notice that an effective counter could be landed with a Jab followed up with a Slice
[You're bruised, nimbly balanced with no advantage.]
I don't know about system limitations for requiring specific moves to be utilized by main hand vs. offhand. If however tracking which hand the strike needs to come from is possible that could be an improvement as well.
What should the pros and cons be of Analyze dual?
Balance positive, increased chance to parry, penalty to shield
DBABIASH
Re: Idea for Offhand/dual wield
10/05/2015 11:13 AM CDT
Oh yeah, I wasn't really imagining an automated counter attack system. If it was in any way "automated" I'd suggest something similar to your idea, where you'd have to type ahead of the attack "counter" or some such, and then you'd get some sort of parry bonus and upon a successful parry would make an automatic attack with some sort of bonus.
Another possibility would be just granting a straight up parry bonus whenever someone was dual wielding, and then having "counter" as a type of attack that was available to you for X seconds after a successful parry.
I also like your idea of working something into the Tactics system. Realistically a lot of the work done dual wielding wouldn't be just for a counter attack, but would put the opponent off balance, or you in a better position, or something else of that sort, which is exactly what Tactics already does.
Another possibility would be just granting a straight up parry bonus whenever someone was dual wielding, and then having "counter" as a type of attack that was available to you for X seconds after a successful parry.
I also like your idea of working something into the Tactics system. Realistically a lot of the work done dual wielding wouldn't be just for a counter attack, but would put the opponent off balance, or you in a better position, or something else of that sort, which is exactly what Tactics already does.
VOLCANUS
Re: Idea for Offhand/dual wield
10/05/2015 11:25 AM CDT
> Realistic dual wielding involves a long and short weapon (the best example being a rapier and dagger), and the advantage was in ability to parry and very effective counter attacks.
I really like this. Limit it to small edges in the off-hand and medium edges in the main hand (or by weight). Use this to combine the damage of small edge + heavy edge to be closer to that of the 2HE/2HB or some combination of the two (edge + blunt, for example). Weapon/armor primes and secondaries can get unique combinations of blunts and blades, usage with shields, or heavier/larger weapons. Weight it towards agility based combat. It would do for damage in an agility build what 2HE / 2HB does for strength builds. The trade off would be increased RTs to match or approach the 2HE / DPS model.
Pipe dreams, I'm sure, but it would be nice to tell people that they can get raw damage out of smaller blades.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Idea for Offhand/dual wield
10/05/2015 11:32 AM CDT
I'd be cool with dual wielding giving double RTs.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
BADGOPHER
Re: Idea for Offhand/dual wield
10/05/2015 11:49 AM CDT
>Realistic...
Ya, while my gnome shoots lightning, gets healed by magic sympaths, teleports through the world to attend a party inside a giant steampunk mechanical spider the size of a county, fights of literal ghosts, goblins, undead, and is raised from the dead by a combination of 13 different gods, let's argue semantic realism for weapons. Because that's not silly.
I understand the actual point you were making. I just find it silly any time someone points to 'in real life' when dealing with weapons. DR physics is not real life physics, even if sometimes it seems close.
As far as off-hand parry, for some reason I think the game has a hard-lock on requiring you to have a weapon in your right hand to parry (and that parry sticks are a soft work around on this, rather than being a break on the hard-lock), but I can't point anywhere.
Past solution (not solutions, solution) has come in the form of 'slap' gauntlets, which did not allow dual wielding, but were instead a mated weapon/shield combination.
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Armor:Iron_gauntlets_deeply_engraved_with_stylized_lions
Ya, while my gnome shoots lightning, gets healed by magic sympaths, teleports through the world to attend a party inside a giant steampunk mechanical spider the size of a county, fights of literal ghosts, goblins, undead, and is raised from the dead by a combination of 13 different gods, let's argue semantic realism for weapons. Because that's not silly.
I understand the actual point you were making. I just find it silly any time someone points to 'in real life' when dealing with weapons. DR physics is not real life physics, even if sometimes it seems close.
As far as off-hand parry, for some reason I think the game has a hard-lock on requiring you to have a weapon in your right hand to parry (and that parry sticks are a soft work around on this, rather than being a break on the hard-lock), but I can't point anywhere.
Past solution (not solutions, solution) has come in the form of 'slap' gauntlets, which did not allow dual wielding, but were instead a mated weapon/shield combination.
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Armor:Iron_gauntlets_deeply_engraved_with_stylized_lions
FATBOY30269
Re: Idea for Offhand/dual wield
10/05/2015 01:04 PM CDT
The double round time would work well as a means to balance the damage portion of fighting. And maybe it is difficult to program for or work around, but I think it would be way more entertaining to both use and train offhand.
VOLCANUS
Re: Idea for Offhand/dual wield
10/05/2015 01:14 PM CDT
> The double round time would work well as a means to balance the damage portion of fighting. And maybe it is difficult to program for or work around, but I think it would be way more entertaining to both use and train offhand.
we already know roundtimes can stack. I wonder if it would be possible to have the system register a mainhand and offhand attack at the same time.
NINEVAH1
Re: Idea for Offhand/dual wield
10/05/2015 01:17 PM CDT
>>I wonder if it would be possible to have the system register a mainhand and offhand attack at the same time.
Maneuvers do it so I don't see it being a problem. In the past Kodius has made it seem that it's more of a problem of balancing DPS than a system limitation.
Maneuvers do it so I don't see it being a problem. In the past Kodius has made it seem that it's more of a problem of balancing DPS than a system limitation.
BADGOPHER
Re: Idea for Offhand/dual wield
10/05/2015 02:20 PM CDT
>we already know roundtimes can stack. I wonder if it would be possible to have the system register a mainhand and offhand attack at the same time.
There was, at some point in the depths of history, an intention to do just that. I think it ended up not being worth the investment cost at the time?
There was, at some point in the depths of history, an intention to do just that. I think it ended up not being worth the investment cost at the time?
SULIC
Re: Idea for Offhand/dual wield
03/01/2016 07:47 PM CST
I would love to see off-hand parry. The offshoot would be worn no shield, or possibly choose one or the other - if you wear a shield on the left you don't Parry left, you block with the shield. If you choose to parry left then you can't wear a shield. You get 2x Parry bonus, since in effect the other blade is your shield.
I imagine you'd use your off hand to jab and feint into great position then hit hard with your right. Makes no sense why you couldn't also block with your left...
The double maneuver is awesome.
"Those who die heroic deaths are long remembered, thieves and drunks and cravens soon forgotten."
-Varys
I imagine you'd use your off hand to jab and feint into great position then hit hard with your right. Makes no sense why you couldn't also block with your left...
The double maneuver is awesome.
"Those who die heroic deaths are long remembered, thieves and drunks and cravens soon forgotten."
-Varys
SARAGOS
Re: Idea for Offhand/dual wield
03/04/2016 02:34 AM CST
>> Realistic dual wielding involves a long and short weapon (the best example being a rapier and dagger), and the advantage was in ability to parry and very effective counter attacks.
>I really like this. Limit it to small edges in the off-hand and medium edges in the main hand (or by weight). Use this to combine the damage of small edge + heavy edge to be closer to that of the 2HE/2HB or some combination of the two (edge + blunt, for example). Weapon/armor primes and secondaries can get unique combinations of blunts and blades, usage with shields, or heavier/larger weapons. Weight it towards agility based combat. It would do for damage in an agility build what 2HE / 2HB does for strength builds. The trade off would be increased RTs to match or approach the 2HE / DPS model.
I would leave it as light edge for weapon terts and medium edge offhand for weapon secondaries. Rapier and dagger is definitely one way of doing tings, but having personally trained both kali and fencing, I can at least confirm that there are legitimate systems that involve using two weapons of equal size that I would categorize as medium edged.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JapMGyUbT68 - Clearly not the best example, but imagine the sticks are short blades.
But as someone who trains offhand I would really like to see the option for dual strikes with normal attacks.
- Saragos
>I really like this. Limit it to small edges in the off-hand and medium edges in the main hand (or by weight). Use this to combine the damage of small edge + heavy edge to be closer to that of the 2HE/2HB or some combination of the two (edge + blunt, for example). Weapon/armor primes and secondaries can get unique combinations of blunts and blades, usage with shields, or heavier/larger weapons. Weight it towards agility based combat. It would do for damage in an agility build what 2HE / 2HB does for strength builds. The trade off would be increased RTs to match or approach the 2HE / DPS model.
I would leave it as light edge for weapon terts and medium edge offhand for weapon secondaries. Rapier and dagger is definitely one way of doing tings, but having personally trained both kali and fencing, I can at least confirm that there are legitimate systems that involve using two weapons of equal size that I would categorize as medium edged.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JapMGyUbT68 - Clearly not the best example, but imagine the sticks are short blades.
But as someone who trains offhand I would really like to see the option for dual strikes with normal attacks.
- Saragos
RCHIGHT
Re: Idea for Offhand/dual wield
03/04/2016 09:56 AM CST
If I'm reading this correctly I wanted to make sure people understand there already is a weapon size restriction for offhand weapons.
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Offhand_Weapon_skill
The user's skillset placement determines the heaviest weapon they can use offhand.
Primary Weapon: Heavy or lighter.
Secondary Weapons: Medium or lighter.
Tertiary Weapons: Light only.
Two-handed weapons cannot be used in the offhand.
It is not currently possible to parry with a weapon held in the offhand, although neither holding nor using a weapon in the offhand will prevent arm-worn shield use. Various GMs have indicated plans to allow for "Offhand Parry."
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Offhand_Weapon_skill
The user's skillset placement determines the heaviest weapon they can use offhand.
Primary Weapon: Heavy or lighter.
Secondary Weapons: Medium or lighter.
Tertiary Weapons: Light only.
Two-handed weapons cannot be used in the offhand.
It is not currently possible to parry with a weapon held in the offhand, although neither holding nor using a weapon in the offhand will prevent arm-worn shield use. Various GMs have indicated plans to allow for "Offhand Parry."
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
SYRAKEN
Re: Idea for Offhand/dual wield
03/04/2016 02:07 PM CST
What if when you parried with the weapon in your hand you automatically counter attacked with the offhand without your input?
When responding to something, make sure you have the facts. Otherwise you are just wasting time. -sig-
RCHIGHT
Re: Idea for Offhand/dual wield
03/04/2016 05:20 PM CST
This isn't the same but I've read that you have a chance to attack with your off hand when you attack with your main hand. I, however, have never experienced this to be the case. Could be the randomness is so random that I've randomly not experienced this randomize attack.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
NINEVAH1
Re: Idea for Offhand/dual wield
03/04/2016 05:34 PM CST
>>This isn't the same but I've read that you have a chance to attack with your off hand when you attack with your main hand. I, however, have never experienced this to be the case. Could be the randomness is so random that I've randomly not experienced this randomize attack.
This is true of charge maneuvers not regular attacks.
This is true of charge maneuvers not regular attacks.
FRANKYFIGGS
Re: Idea for Offhand/dual wield
03/11/2016 12:23 PM CST
the biggest drawback to holding two weapons is the lack of skinning and looting while training. hold a weapon in the offhand no problem, wield a 2 hander with a free hand to skin, no problem. fill both hands with weapons while you hunt? no good.
-Munch-
-Munch-
