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What is the point of having a secondary weapon? 03/18/2015 12:08 PM CDT

I'm a little confused. Based off of what I read on elanthipedia, it seems like there is no reason to use off-hand. In particular, I am confused about this part: "the hybrid amount of skill used to attack will never exceed the user's normal weapon skill" Doesn't that just mean that the only place you can go is down? If the benefit is non-positive, what would be the point of ever using a secondary weapon? It's not like there's a separate RT for left and right, so any time you want to <attack left>, why not just <swap> <attack>?

The only thing I can see that uses having two weapons at once is the doublestrike maneuver. It can't really be true that this is the only time the skill is really used, can it? (Furthermore, is there even any advantage of using it over the maneuvers single weapons?)

Hoping to have this confusion cleared up.

ILLIENA

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Re: What is the point of having a secondary weapon? 03/18/2015 12:11 PM CDT

> The only thing I can see that uses having two weapons at once is the doublestrike maneuver. It can't really be true that this is the only time the skill is really used, can it?

Any other maneuver has a chance to trigger an off-hand strike if you've got weapons in both hands, but yeah, that's pretty much it.

> Furthermore, is there even any advantage of using it over the maneuvers single weapons?

Separate cooldowns.

FLINT-TIPPED

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Re: What is the point of having a secondary weapon? 03/18/2015 12:24 PM CDT

Double strike with two moonblades looks pretty cool.

Vote:
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NINEVAH1

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Re: What is the point of having a secondary weapon? 03/18/2015 12:26 PM CDT

It can be useful in PvP (or PvE) while using a crossbow you can also throw from your left hand. It doesn't have the benefits it used to, but can be used to increase DPS if used right.

VOLCANUS

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Re: What is the point of having a secondary weapon? 03/18/2015 12:39 PM CDT

> I'm a little confused. Based off of what I read on elanthipedia, it seems like there is no reason to use off-hand.

I see it as no reason not to use off-hand with thrown weapons. More TDPs, and you can parry after the weapon leaves your hand. True, you have parry sticks, but I've had better success parrying with a well balanced weapon than a stick.

I believe this is also important for barbarians who want to whirlwind.

TEVESHSZAT

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Re: What is the point of having a secondary weapon? 03/18/2015 02:01 PM CDT

AFAIK offhand thrown doesn't teach offhand anymore (which is a shame).

That said, I train it because why not. GMs are occasionally muse over the idea of someday making combat handle dual wielding weapons.

Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

VOLCANUS

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Re: What is the point of having a secondary weapon? 03/18/2015 02:15 PM CDT

> AFAIK offhand thrown doesn't teach offhand anymore (which is a shame).

It definitely teaches LT and offhand, at least at lower levels.

TEVESHSZAT

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Re: What is the point of having a secondary weapon? 03/18/2015 02:55 PM CDT

>>It definitely teaches LT and offhand, at least at lower levels.

I remember reading that it was turned off forever ago in Prime even though it was still working in Plat for the time. For the last few months it wasn't working in Plat so I figured the instances synced up. Did it get turned back on in Prime, then?

VOLCANUS

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Re: What is the point of having a secondary weapon? 03/18/2015 03:28 PM CDT

> Did it get turned back on in Prime, then?

I don't know if it was ever turned off, but it's definitely in the game right now. Try it. Put a weapon in your left hand and throw left.

ABSOLON

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Re: What is the point of having a secondary weapon? 03/18/2015 04:47 PM CDT

It has never been turned off, although they did announce at one point that it was. It's been reported many times and the GM response has always been a big shrug. I'm also pretty sure we've had this discussion at least a couple times in the past with you a part of it, Tev. You must be getting old or the memory's fading or both.

Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators

DRFREAK3

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Re: What is the point of having a secondary weapon? 03/18/2015 05:36 PM CDT

I think the intention of offhand was to eventually flesh it out into a more robust system, but it was never done/finished.

TEVESHSZAT

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Re: What is the point of having a secondary weapon? 03/18/2015 06:00 PM CDT

>>It has never been turned off, although they did announce at one point that it was. It's been reported many times and the GM response has always been a big shrug. I'm also pretty sure we've had this discussion at least a couple times in the past with you a part of it, Tev. You must be getting old or the memory's fading or both.

I wouldn't be shocked if it turns on and off as random combat updates get pushed into the game. Happens for craftables in development, at times! I'll check Plat tonight to see if it's working again, who knows maybe it is!

RCHIGHT

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Re: What is the point of having a secondary weapon? 03/19/2015 04:09 PM CDT

So if you are trying to training weapons then the following is a benefit (though I don't use it yet) because of they way skill draining works as opposed to prior to 3.0.

For example if you need SE and LE to circle you would:
SE Offhand (assuming Offhand skill is higher than SE skill)
LE right hand

Alternate between attacks with each, which keeps each skill over 1/34 by a mile
Both weapons will remain training the same which removes the need to "backtrain" one to catch up based on having to log off, disco's etc.

Additionally, if you trying to backtrain a weapon in the offhand, you at least have the max weapon skill to do damage and train it.

When I get around to it I'm going to replace all my normal combats with using offhand to backtrain. The major problem is going back to the system of having to sheath the offhand to skin, collect gems/boxes and the like. But for training it's a big boon with the new way skill draining works.

End game...not so much.

Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!

NORT

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Re: What is the point of having a secondary weapon? 04/05/2015 11:39 AM CDT

I've also found offhand to be....handy....when using analyze. One hand has my slashing-heavy medium edge scythe blade and the other has a pointy stabby dagger, so when I have to do 'jab, slash, thrust, chop' I can use the best suited weapon for whichever style. Since both are small edge, my weapon trains fine no matter which hand I use.

DR-KODIUS

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Re: What is the point of having a secondary weapon? 04/19/2015 08:21 PM CDT

>>I've also found offhand to be....handy....when using analyze. One hand has my slashing-heavy medium edge scythe blade and the other has a pointy stabby dagger, so when I have to do 'jab, slash, thrust, chop' I can use the best suited weapon for whichever style. Since both are small edge, my weapon trains fine no matter which hand I use.

Yup, that is one advantage for maximizing DPS while performing combos.

There will be a Situational and Channeled Maneuver that should improve DPS when dual wielding.

I've been considering having the offhand weapon occasionally "proc" when making right handed attacks. It'd start at like 20% of the time with no shield, and decrease based on the size of the armworn shield being used. Guild abilities could increase this %.

"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

TEVESHSZAT

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Re: What is the point of having a secondary weapon? 04/19/2015 08:55 PM CDT

>>I've been considering having the offhand weapon occasionally "proc" when making right handed attacks. It'd start at like 20% of the time with no shield, and decrease based on the size of the armworn shield being used. Guild abilities could increase this %.

This would be really really cool.

KUYKEND9

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Re: What is the point of having a secondary weapon? 04/19/2015 10:46 PM CDT

>> >>I've been considering having the offhand weapon occasionally "proc" when making right handed attacks. It'd start at like 20% of the time with no shield, and decrease based on the size of the armworn shield being used. Guild abilities could increase this %.

>> This would be really really cool.

Ditto, but... not to sound greedy, but could there be a chance at upping the % chance of an offhand add-on attack with skill in Offhand Weapon/the skill of the weapon in your off-hand? I'm not aiming for something severely overpowered; thinking something like a slow, steady increase in the % chance of an offhand additional attack, capping at like 50% or less at something like 1500 ranks Offhand/weapon skill. In the event that this did happen, I'd also expect whatever that cap was (50% or otherwise) to be a hard cap that can not be overcome with class abilities.

I

MICHAELP2002

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Re: What is the point of having a secondary weapon? 04/20/2015 06:39 AM CDT

That sounds great, but once that is implemented are we just going to see everyone sporting two weapons and a shield, even for a 5% double strike chance. I am not trying to be a downer, but what sort of dps increase do you predict from this and is a large population of dual using shield wearers what is wanted? Again, not complaining, I needed a reason to lob left anyways beyond tdps.

GNIKOLEYCHUK

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Re: What is the point of having a secondary weapon? 04/20/2015 09:46 PM CDT

>>> I've been considering having the offhand weapon occasionally "proc" when making right handed attacks. It'd start at like 20% of the time with no shield, and decrease based on the size of the armworn shield being used. Guild abilities could increase this %.

Based on a recent discussion re: the lack of benefits for being weapon prime (and secondary), could i suggest setting the base chance at something like 15%/20%/25%?

>>> That sounds great, but once that is implemented are we just going to see everyone sporting two weapons and a shield, even for a 5% double strike chance.

Perhaps if the shield size decreased the chance significantly. If it was-15% for small and -20% for medium and large all weapon tert guilds would be unable to dual wield while wearing a shield and all guilds that are weapon / armour secondary or higher (barbarians, paladins and rangers) would need to use a small shield in order to dual wield. As an aside, Maybe that could be implemented for two handed weapons as well to give large weapons a niche (for sword and board style).

DR-KODIUS

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Re: What is the point of having a secondary weapon? 04/20/2015 09:46 PM CDT

I really don't know. There needs to be a benefit for training and using a skill, but how does one design it so that is also undesirable enough so not everyone does it? Does a 5% increase in DPS overtake the annoyance of juggling the item in your offhand for looting purposes?

And 50% proc would be a potential 50% increase in DPS. Completely overpowered and out of whack, so no it wouldn't be that high.

MICHAELP2002

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Re: What is the point of having a secondary weapon? 04/21/2015 06:34 AM CDT

I do like the idea of getting a secondary attack from offhand, I mean, it makes absolute sense and does give offhand more than it currently is. I just thought that the whole two hander and shield was sort of regretted after the fact, and can't imagine two weapons and shield wouldn't similarly be, especially if it then becomes a passive dps increase. Maybe instead of a whole second attack, the math could be reworked so that a portion of the two could combined into a new weighted(stronger) attack value, while also adding increased parry bonuses and effects (like perhaps causing a passive decrease in opponent defending while increasing users parry).

DR-KODIUS

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Re: What is the point of having a secondary weapon? 04/21/2015 01:21 PM CDT

Using two weapons is a considerable danger to the unskilled. Self-decapitation on a critical failure here we come!

KUYKEND9

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Re: What is the point of having a secondary weapon? 04/21/2015 01:24 PM CDT

>> Using two weapons is a considerable danger to the unskilled. Self-decapitation on a critical failure here we come!

kodius, stahp

I

MICHAELP2002

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Re: What is the point of having a secondary weapon? 04/21/2015 02:29 PM CDT

Obviously a moonmage only feat.

2DUMBARSE

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Re: What is the point of having a secondary weapon? 04/21/2015 03:20 PM CDT

>I've been considering having the offhand weapon occasionally "proc" when making right handed attacks. It'd start at like 20% of the time with no shield, and decrease based on the size of the armworn shield being used. Guild abilities could increase this %.

That sounds really great. Would be really cool if a held shield could be used for the proc as well. I.e. it'd proc a shield slam a certain percentage of the time. In a lot of games where sword and board is an option, attacks usually occur with the shield as well. It'd make large edged more desirable as a side-effect. Right now, you're best off going 2-hander if you want raw damage or small edged for DPS, leaving LE best at neither.

ROBERTDH

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Re: What is the point of having a secondary weapon? 04/21/2015 03:39 PM CDT

Why stop at duel weilding? Offensive wounds for everyone!

It's realistic, and funny.

>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.

SHADOW7988

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Re: What is the point of having a secondary weapon? 04/21/2015 05:16 PM CDT

I'd like that 20% slowly raise to something a bit better throughout the 1700 or so ranks available in duel wielding.

Though special maneuvers, and cool extras in certain guilds could be an awesome deal as well.

---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS

---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.

VOLCANUS

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Re: What is the point of having a secondary weapon? 04/21/2015 06:33 PM CDT

I wonder if it would be easier to create an "offhand" verb that can be used during RT but has it's own internal cool down?

This could be a weapons prime/secondary perk with synergy for the heavier weapons that a weapons prime can wield.

Weapons prime: All brawling and damaging moves (?) weapons - ie: offhand chop
Weapons secondary: Moderately fatiguing moves and below.
Weapons tertiary: Somewhat fatiguing moves

Armor prime: all defensive moves + offhand bash (non-arm worn shield)
Armor Secondary: all defensive moves (ie: offhand Feint)

Lore prime: Offhand analyze* option opens up + combos completed with offhand weapon.
Lore secondary: combos can be completed with offhand weapon (assuming you can pull off the move)

The CD could be reduced with ranks and possibly guild abilities. Swapping weapons (mainhand or offhand) will reset the CD to maximum duration. Perhaps reduced with guild abilities. The weight of the primary weapon and offhand weapon has a factor in how long the internal CD is. Offhand moves are more fatiguing than their counter parts, and failing to land an off-hand menuever would give you a short balance debuff while the offhand CD recharges.

*Basically an RT free analyze. Still triggers the internal CD. can be stacked with analyze for tactical debuffs by landing finishing moves at the same time or sharing moves between analyze and offhand analyze.

TEVESHSZAT

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Re: What is the point of having a secondary weapon? 04/21/2015 07:33 PM CDT

Maybe a flat 5% chance for offhand to trigger and 0.1% more per 10 ranks of offhand.

Then, add the following

Weapon Skillset	small	medium	large
Primary	+5%	+2.5%	+0%
Secondary	+2.5%	+0%	N/A
Tertiary	+0%	N/A	N/A

DR-KODIUS

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Re: What is the point of having a secondary weapon? 04/22/2015 01:15 PM CDT

The problem with tying the % chance to ranks is it produces a non-linear gain in power/ranks. Combat assumes players have a fair contest for the purposes of DPS from 1-1700 ranks. Increasing the DPS outside of this would make combat at higher skill easier than what is intended.

For example, you don't do +damage with TM spells based off ranks. Your damage is based off the comparison of your TM skill to the defenses of what you are fighting and how well you rolled for hitting and damage.

KUYKEND9

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Re: What is the point of having a secondary weapon? 04/22/2015 01:25 PM CDT

>> The problem with tying the % chance to ranks is it produces a non-linear gain in power/ranks. Combat assumes players have a fair contest for the purposes of DPS from 1-1700 ranks. Increasing the DPS outside of this would make combat at higher skill easier than what is intended.

That makes perfect sense. Thanks for explaining.

Given that information, I just really like the idea of the X% chance of an offhand strike when I attack with my mainhand, and I'm perfectly willing to accept some sort of negative to balance out the increased damage potential, such as a mild parry penalty for a few seconds following a successful proc. For those who don't want this though, I'd advise a TOGGLE option to turn off auto-attacks with the offhand weapon.

I

TEVESHSZAT

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Re: What is the point of having a secondary weapon? 04/22/2015 02:04 PM CDT

>>The problem with tying the % chance to ranks is it produces a non-linear gain in power/ranks.

Makes total sense and I'm assuming this is partially why there's not much love for throwing blades these days? Hah.

Having the the additional % based on skillset placement + weapon used is still possible because it isn't tied to ranks, right? I like that just so Barbarians (for example) have a valid reason to use small edged instead of heavy edged as an offhand weapon.

TEVESHSZAT

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Re: What is the point of having a secondary weapon? 04/22/2015 02:09 PM CDT

>>Given that information, I just really like the idea of the X% chance of an offhand strike when I attack with my mainhand, and I'm perfectly willing to accept some sort of negative to balance out the increased damage potential, such as a mild parry penalty for a few seconds following a successful proc. For those who don't want this though, I'd advise a TOGGLE option to turn off auto-attacks with the offhand weapon.

I'd be cool with an additional RT tacked on as long as it wasn't equal to what you'd do for two mainhand attacks (just to better validate why you'd want to use offhand to begin with). Like 50% of what the RT would be as a primary-hand weapon. So if your 40 stone broadsword gives you a slice RT of 4 seconds, your offhand strike would cause 2 seconds seconds of RT.

Giving offhand attacks a penalty to accuracy would be fine by me, too, to also give a better reason to just stick to primary hand strikes, as well. So three slices with just a mainhand weapon could be 12 seconds. Two mainhand + offhand strikes would be 12 seconds as well, but those two offhand strikes wouldn't be as accurate. Would it be better to do three mainhand strikes for better accuracy, or two mainhand+offhand strikes with diminished accuracy? CHOICES!

OLSONM6

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Re: What is the point of having a secondary weapon? 04/22/2015 02:39 PM CDT

Would you be able to auto-attack brawling attacks off-hand with an empty hand?

Don't forget to vote:

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RCHIGHT

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Re: What is the point of having a secondary weapon? 04/23/2015 04:21 PM CDT

Brawling isn't part of the off hand system now so I'd think that would require a bit more work. Maybe. Perhaps. Possibly.

Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!

SHOOBS

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Re: What is the point of having a secondary weapon? 05/01/2015 08:23 AM CDT

Paladins should totally get the shield slam offhand ability as a reason to keep using the larger shields :D :D even at high levels of play.

BRYCOLE83

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Re: What is the point of having a secondary weapon? 06/29/2015 03:43 PM CDT

This is a cool idea. Any choices that makes people not wear an arm-worn shield is A+++ in my book.

And I don't think the entire realms will switch to dual wielding. They would have to be better then 2 handed weapon + arm worm shield.

DragonRealms · Dual Wield / Offhand