Not sure if this should go here or not, but my main is using a heavy edged in the main hand, and a short staff in the offhand. Survival secondary, and weapons and armor tertiary (Moon Mage) Thus, evasion is the most important defensive skill. Or, at least the highest trained, and can also be buffed via Seer's Sense.
Given all that, especially the weapon tert part, is it important/valuable to train in sheidl in order to wear a target shield on the left arm? Weapons tertiarys can only use target shields in this manner, weapons secondaries can use medium, and weapon prime can use any shield. So, I'm wondering if I should even bother to train shield usage at all. My stance is almost always 100 evasion, 80 parry, 0 shield, although I could easily change that around.
Any ideas/thoughts?
CAELRIC
ISHARON
Re: Shield Usage with Dual Weapons
07/17/2012 02:57 PM CDT
>>Caelric: So, I'm wondering if I should even bother to train shield usage at all.
Neglect shield training at your own peril.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Neglect shield training at your own peril.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Shield Usage with Dual Weapons
07/17/2012 04:14 PM CDT
>>Caelric: So, I'm wondering if I should even bother to train shield usage at all.
>>Neglect shield training at your own peril.
QFT.
>>Neglect shield training at your own peril.
QFT.
BLUESUEDESHOES
Re: Shield Usage with Dual Weapons
07/17/2012 04:19 PM CDT
>>Weapons tertiarys can only use target shields in this manner, weapons secondaries can use medium, and weapon prime can use any shield.<<
Clarification here. Armor tert can use arm worn small shields, Armor secondary can use arm worn medium shields or smaller, and Armor primary (paladins) can use arm worn large shields (or smaller)
And as others have said... Neglect shield training at your own peril.
Elvis has left the building.
Clarification here. Armor tert can use arm worn small shields, Armor secondary can use arm worn medium shields or smaller, and Armor primary (paladins) can use arm worn large shields (or smaller)
And as others have said... Neglect shield training at your own peril.
Elvis has left the building.
CAELRIC
Re: Shield Usage with Dual Weapons
07/17/2012 04:26 PM CDT
Okay, but why? If I am 100 evasion, 80 parry, there is no stance left for shield. Does it help? If so, how?
I get 'Neglect shield training at your peril'. but why? Give me some more information other than a dire warning, on why it is/could be/will be useful, either currently or in 3.0
I get 'Neglect shield training at your peril'. but why? Give me some more information other than a dire warning, on why it is/could be/will be useful, either currently or in 3.0
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Shield Usage with Dual Weapons
07/17/2012 04:36 PM CDT
>>Does it help? If so, how?
Your Moon Mage doesn't plan to block an arrow with a short staff, right?
9 times out of 10 I get more value out of a shield/evasion mix than a evasion/parry mix.
If you're doing it for RP purposes (and I'm pretty certain you are), more power to you. Just realize you might have difficulty in certain contexts, like missile attack defense (arrows, bolts, tm spells, thrown weapons, etc), where parry gets ignored.
"You always have to be a know-it-all. And you don't. Know. It. All." - GERSTEINJ2
Your Moon Mage doesn't plan to block an arrow with a short staff, right?
9 times out of 10 I get more value out of a shield/evasion mix than a evasion/parry mix.
If you're doing it for RP purposes (and I'm pretty certain you are), more power to you. Just realize you might have difficulty in certain contexts, like missile attack defense (arrows, bolts, tm spells, thrown weapons, etc), where parry gets ignored.
"You always have to be a know-it-all. And you don't. Know. It. All." - GERSTEINJ2
CAELRIC
Re: Shield Usage with Dual Weapons
07/17/2012 05:03 PM CDT
Okay, that makes sense. Now, if the shield is being arm worn, and I still have the short staff in the offhand, if I set my stance to say evasion 100 shield 80, I do get the benefit of a shield, just not as much as if I was actually holding it, right?
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Shield Usage with Dual Weapons
07/17/2012 05:17 PM CDT
>>Now, if the shield is being arm worn, and I still have the short staff in the offhand, if I set my stance to say evasion 100 shield 80, I do get the benefit of a shield, just not as much as if I was actually holding it, right?
Pretty sure that's the case.
"You always have to be a know-it-all. And you don't. Know. It. All." - GERSTEINJ2
Pretty sure that's the case.
"You always have to be a know-it-all. And you don't. Know. It. All." - GERSTEINJ2
YAMCER
Re: Shield Usage with Dual Weapons
07/17/2012 05:33 PM CDT
One can utilize an evasion/parry setup quite well. It isn't the Min/Max setup that lots of people trend towards, but is it also not mandatory that everyone train shields. Currently there are attacks that can bypass parry (also attacks that bypass shield) which only becomes a concern if you engage in CvC with players that use those methods. Going up the critter ladder one finds that parry is better in some instances than shields (multiple opponents). Shield has an advantage that it provides a small random chance of "object in the way" defense which can block any attack.
That is speaking for the current systems and not delving into the changes with combat 3.0 which will change up most everything that is min/maxed today.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
That is speaking for the current systems and not delving into the changes with combat 3.0 which will change up most everything that is min/maxed today.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Shield Usage with Dual Weapons
07/17/2012 05:57 PM CDT
>>Currently there are attacks that can bypass parry (also attacks that bypass shield) which only becomes a concern if you engage in CvC with players that use those methods.
While there are many attacks that bypass parry but not shield, I can't think of any attacks that bypass shield but not parry. And while you're correct about how you wouldn't technically need shield if you go up against the correct mob ladder, you'd be in trouble in any mob situation like invasions where critters use ranged attacks.
>>Going up the critter ladder one finds that parry is better in some instances than shields (multiple opponents).
I've heard this, but I've never found it to be the case. I tend to always do better with shield.
"You always have to be a know-it-all. And you don't. Know. It. All." - GERSTEINJ2
While there are many attacks that bypass parry but not shield, I can't think of any attacks that bypass shield but not parry. And while you're correct about how you wouldn't technically need shield if you go up against the correct mob ladder, you'd be in trouble in any mob situation like invasions where critters use ranged attacks.
>>Going up the critter ladder one finds that parry is better in some instances than shields (multiple opponents).
I've heard this, but I've never found it to be the case. I tend to always do better with shield.
"You always have to be a know-it-all. And you don't. Know. It. All." - GERSTEINJ2
BADGOPHER
Re: Shield Usage with Dual Weapons
07/17/2012 06:01 PM CDT
I have never found parry to be better than shield. I have rarely found it to be equitable, but it depends too much on using certain weapons, etc.
Things they are a changin' 'soon', but honestly, it's a bad idea to neglect shield. It's extremely potent, and you can slap one on and lock/learn without effort.
Things they are a changin' 'soon', but honestly, it's a bad idea to neglect shield. It's extremely potent, and you can slap one on and lock/learn without effort.
GRIM45
Re: Shield Usage with Dual Weapons
07/17/2012 06:32 PM CDT
>>I've heard this, but I've never found it to be the case. I tend to always do better with shield.
I noticed it really start happening in celps/stompers. It could be confirmation bias, or a function of how often I'm in shield vs parry stance, but I can't remember the last time I took a hit from them in parry stance vs shield. And they're only about 20 or 30 ranks apart for me.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
I noticed it really start happening in celps/stompers. It could be confirmation bias, or a function of how often I'm in shield vs parry stance, but I can't remember the last time I took a hit from them in parry stance vs shield. And they're only about 20 or 30 ranks apart for me.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
ALEPH-ONE
Re: Shield Usage with Dual Weapons
07/17/2012 06:42 PM CDT
As a fellow moon mage, I have loved shield. I train parry too of course.
Of course, if your only concern is the RP aspect, you can probably get away with evasion/parry for PvE. But honestly, if you have even the slightest inkling that you might want to do PVP, or cover yourself against invasion critters or others that might shoot at you, train shield. It's extremely easy to keep both shield and parry locked, especially with both tert, so the opportunity cost is basically nil.
-- Player of Eyuve
Of course, if your only concern is the RP aspect, you can probably get away with evasion/parry for PvE. But honestly, if you have even the slightest inkling that you might want to do PVP, or cover yourself against invasion critters or others that might shoot at you, train shield. It's extremely easy to keep both shield and parry locked, especially with both tert, so the opportunity cost is basically nil.
-- Player of Eyuve
ILLIENA
Re: Shield Usage with Dual Weapons
07/17/2012 07:01 PM CDT
> I noticed it really start happening in celps/stompers.
This is about when I noticed it, but I hadn't really tested in a while, so it could have been earlier. Even with parry about 100 ranks behind shield, I'm safer in parry stance than shield, especially when burdened.
This is about when I noticed it, but I hadn't really tested in a while, so it could have been earlier. Even with parry about 100 ranks behind shield, I'm safer in parry stance than shield, especially when burdened.
NOVIO
Re: Shield Usage with Dual Weapons
07/17/2012 08:08 PM CDT
I've always heard that parry starts being a useful defense at some point later on, but I've never got that far before. However, right now it is my favorite means of learning first aid.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Shield Usage with Dual Weapons
07/17/2012 10:06 PM CDT
Parry's a late bloomer, but shield is always awesome. Like Eyuve said, little reason not to train both.
SULLIVANS3
Re: Shield Usage with Dual Weapons
07/18/2012 08:50 AM CDT
Even as a paladin with over 150 more ranks in shield than parry, I use parry when I hunt more often than shield at this point. That said, that's the -only- time I tend to rely on parry. I very rarely use it in PvP (very specific circumstances) and almost never in invasions since there's often an unknown as to what might be coming around the corner next.
3.0 is going to bring a lot of changes to much of what's being said here as well. But the one constant is there will still be attacks you'll do better to defend against with one defense over another. I think you're safest bet is to train shield, even if you think you won't use it. It's better to have the ranks there then to decide later you wish you had.
~Katt
A gestalt draugen swipes a hooked leonine claw at Silus. The claw lands a solid hit that cuts deeply into his groin!
3.0 is going to bring a lot of changes to much of what's being said here as well. But the one constant is there will still be attacks you'll do better to defend against with one defense over another. I think you're safest bet is to train shield, even if you think you won't use it. It's better to have the ranks there then to decide later you wish you had.
~Katt
A gestalt draugen swipes a hooked leonine claw at Silus. The claw lands a solid hit that cuts deeply into his groin!
BLUESUEDESHOES
Re: Shield Usage with Dual Weapons
07/18/2012 08:53 AM CDT
>>I think you're safest bet is to train shield, even if you think you won't use it. It's better to have the ranks there then to decide later you wish you had.<<
Well said. QFT
Elvis has left the building.
Well said. QFT
Elvis has left the building.
SULLIVANS3
Re: Shield Usage with Dual Weapons
07/18/2012 08:55 AM CDT
Except for the *then part. THAN. I really wish I could edit :(
~Katt
A gestalt draugen swipes a hooked leonine claw at Silus. The claw lands a solid hit that cuts deeply into his groin!
DISCOTEQ21
Re: Shield Usage with Dual Weapons
07/18/2012 10:21 AM CDT
I'd also recommend training shield, if your not training it for RP purposes, just take off the shield when you RP. Train it though, because backtraining, anything... sucks.
