Was talking with some other players about dual-weld today and some were talking about how they couldn't wait to Dual-weld two broadswords and two scimitars.
Since the game seemingly tries to juggle realistic and practical RL limitations in the fantasy setting, I'm wondering if any sort of size restriction/penalty will be in place?
The only reason I ask is that duel-welding two broadswords or scimitars may look very cool in movies when stuntmen are using swords made out of rubber, but in RL successfully duel-welding two swords, heavy and large, wouldn't be so effective and at times disastrous.
Same with the realistic possibility of being able to parry with an off hand broadsword while welding another weapon.
I just hope that weapon size and weight are going to be factored in the final implementations for Offhand, but for reasons of game balance and without getting too ridiculous.
"Failure is not our only punishment for laziness: there is also the success of others."
Jules Renard
KALARAMA1
HERALD42
Re: Questions and Concerns
03/30/2008 12:13 PM CDT
There are some limitations. Only weapons prime guilds can wield a heavy weapon in the offhand slot. Weapons secondary guilds may wield a medium weapon in the offhand slot. Weapons tert guilds may only wield a light weapon in the offhand slot.
Keep in mind that the system is designed for a fantasy environment a-la Conan, where limbs and heads are removed constantly and blood sprays everywhere -- where it is a commonplace to come back from the dead, and mages rain fire from the sky with but a gesture; where halflings can leap up and drive a tiny blade through a giant's skull in a shower of death.
Keep in mind that the system is designed for a fantasy environment a-la Conan, where limbs and heads are removed constantly and blood sprays everywhere -- where it is a commonplace to come back from the dead, and mages rain fire from the sky with but a gesture; where halflings can leap up and drive a tiny blade through a giant's skull in a shower of death.
HARES
Re: Questions and Concerns
03/30/2008 12:30 PM CDT
Call me crazy, but i really liked that in GS3/4, as a halfling, you would have to ambush a leg and knock down a giant-sized critter before you could hit it's head.
KALARAMA1
Re: Questions and Concerns
03/30/2008 01:21 PM CDT
<<Keep in mind that the system is designed for a fantasy environment a-la Conan, where limbs and heads are removed constantly and blood sprays everywhere -- where it is a commonplace to come back from the dead, and mages rain fire from the sky with but a gesture; where halflings can leap up and drive a tiny blade through a giant's skull in a shower of death.
Yeah but not having some limitations on that is sort of ridiculous. It could have some balance issues too based on how the offense and special attacks are implemented.
"Failure is not our only punishment for laziness: there is also the success of others."
Jules Renard
NIKPACK
Re: Questions and Concerns
03/30/2008 01:30 PM CDT
<<I just hope that weapon size and weight are going to be factored in the final implementations for Offhand, but for reasons of game balance and without getting too ridiculous.
I think the guild limitations
(weapons primary: heavy weapons or lower,
weapons secondary: medium weapons or lower,
weapons tertiary: light weapons) have this nicely. And I suspect any new feats will have an extra fatigue hit in there as well since one is swinging two weapons, as weapon weight already does this as well.
<<Call me crazy, but i really liked that in GS3/4, as a halfling, you would have to ambush a leg and knock down a giant-sized critter before you could hit it's head.
While cool, I like DR's versitility. It's a game that's really good at allowing you to customize your character. and while there are some limitations, generally if you're willing to make the sacrifice, you can do it in DR (e.g. You want to be a heathen and not follow the IG religion? Fine don't get favors. That's one hard RP to follow but still doable.) rather than forcing you to do it just a few finite ways.
While this example is cool, I prefer my DR with options. And as such, I like that Simu has another game that can offer such a combat option.
Nikpack
player of Celeiros
Climbing List:http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Climbing_skill
Swimming List:http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Swimming_skill
And while I am evil, I try to avoid being just plain mean.
-Z
I think the guild limitations
(weapons primary: heavy weapons or lower,
weapons secondary: medium weapons or lower,
weapons tertiary: light weapons) have this nicely. And I suspect any new feats will have an extra fatigue hit in there as well since one is swinging two weapons, as weapon weight already does this as well.
<<Call me crazy, but i really liked that in GS3/4, as a halfling, you would have to ambush a leg and knock down a giant-sized critter before you could hit it's head.
While cool, I like DR's versitility. It's a game that's really good at allowing you to customize your character. and while there are some limitations, generally if you're willing to make the sacrifice, you can do it in DR (e.g. You want to be a heathen and not follow the IG religion? Fine don't get favors. That's one hard RP to follow but still doable.) rather than forcing you to do it just a few finite ways.
While this example is cool, I prefer my DR with options. And as such, I like that Simu has another game that can offer such a combat option.
Nikpack
player of Celeiros
Climbing List:http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Climbing_skill
Swimming List:http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Swimming_skill
And while I am evil, I try to avoid being just plain mean.
-Z
YAMCER
Re: Questions and Concerns
03/30/2008 04:48 PM CDT
<< Yeah but not having some limitations on that is sort of ridiculous. >>
the offhand skill limits how well you can attack with a weapon in the off hand slot.
so if you have 5 offhand and 3000 medium edge you aren't hitting with your max potential until you train up your offhand skill.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
the offhand skill limits how well you can attack with a weapon in the off hand slot.
so if you have 5 offhand and 3000 medium edge you aren't hitting with your max potential until you train up your offhand skill.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
KALARAMA1
Re: Questions and Concerns
03/30/2008 06:47 PM CDT
<<the offhand skill limits how well you can attack with a weapon in the off hand slot.
I got that. But no matter how good you are in using your off hand, it still wont negate the fact that welding two friggin broadswords is not only impractical, but also more hindering and ineffective in practice. I just think some hardcoded penalties should be in place to reflect that.
IMO
"Failure is not our only punishment for laziness: there is also the success of others."
Jules Renard
I got that. But no matter how good you are in using your off hand, it still wont negate the fact that welding two friggin broadswords is not only impractical, but also more hindering and ineffective in practice. I just think some hardcoded penalties should be in place to reflect that.
IMO
"Failure is not our only punishment for laziness: there is also the success of others."
Jules Renard
YAMCER
Re: Questions and Concerns
03/30/2008 06:58 PM CDT
<<But no matter how good you are in using your off hand, it still wont negate the fact that welding two friggin broadswords is not only impractical, but also more hindering and ineffective in practice. I just think some hardcoded penalties should be in place to reflect that.>>
so the weapon skill set location + penalty for low skill isn't enough?
The hindrance and impracticality is right there. a war mage can't do two katanas, a moon mage can't even do two scimitars. It is a playable and well balanced system. Penalties are reflected in the skill set and skill ranks.
Fireballs and teleporting and hiding at melee is impractical and ineffective in practice two... but this is a fantasy game with limited ties to reality.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
so the weapon skill set location + penalty for low skill isn't enough?
The hindrance and impracticality is right there. a war mage can't do two katanas, a moon mage can't even do two scimitars. It is a playable and well balanced system. Penalties are reflected in the skill set and skill ranks.
Fireballs and teleporting and hiding at melee is impractical and ineffective in practice two... but this is a fantasy game with limited ties to reality.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
TRITON1
Re: Questions and Concerns
03/30/2008 09:22 PM CDT
"I got that. But no matter how good you are in using your off hand, it still wont negate the fact that welding two friggin broadswords is not only impractical, but also more hindering and ineffective in practice. I just think some hardcoded penalties should be in place to reflect that."
I think there needs to be some give there on the realism. I agree that it does seem a bit unwieldy as described. But then again, using that same line of logic, Togs should be getting bonuses to every weapon, and only when wielding two claymores or greatswords do they start getting these "hard coded" penalties. Not to mention Gnomes are going to have to start dual wielding carrot peelers to not be affected by these penalties.
This game has a lot of these types of inaccuracies floating around, like gnomes and Togs wearing the same armor. Heck, if I really tried to imagine what my 36 stone bastie really looks like, it would prolly look like a large short sword. That or something akin to a cheap plastic toy from Toys"R"us.
-Gred
-For us, there is no spring. Just the wind that smells fresh before the storm.
I think there needs to be some give there on the realism. I agree that it does seem a bit unwieldy as described. But then again, using that same line of logic, Togs should be getting bonuses to every weapon, and only when wielding two claymores or greatswords do they start getting these "hard coded" penalties. Not to mention Gnomes are going to have to start dual wielding carrot peelers to not be affected by these penalties.
This game has a lot of these types of inaccuracies floating around, like gnomes and Togs wearing the same armor. Heck, if I really tried to imagine what my 36 stone bastie really looks like, it would prolly look like a large short sword. That or something akin to a cheap plastic toy from Toys"R"us.
-Gred
-For us, there is no spring. Just the wind that smells fresh before the storm.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Questions and Concerns
03/30/2008 11:37 PM CDT
I think the necessity to train an entirely new skill just to wield another of your favorite weapons - and the way the attack power and experience are calculated - is a very heavy deterrent and is already a well-balanced approach. It rewards effort and gives out some nice guild-based perks like arm-worn shields.
I think honestly the only thing missing is an actual use for offhand besides dual whirlwind. Given that my Barbarian's primary weapon is 2HE it isn't of much use to me.
Once dual attack and (hopefully) dual throw come out sometime then the skill might actually be worth training regularly.
*******
Doctor: Are you Alliance?
Early: Am I lion? Huh. I don't think of myself as a lion. But you might as well have a mighty roar!
I think honestly the only thing missing is an actual use for offhand besides dual whirlwind. Given that my Barbarian's primary weapon is 2HE it isn't of much use to me.
Once dual attack and (hopefully) dual throw come out sometime then the skill might actually be worth training regularly.
*******
Doctor: Are you Alliance?
Early: Am I lion? Huh. I don't think of myself as a lion. But you might as well have a mighty roar!
VROTSOSJ
Re: Questions and Concerns
03/31/2008 04:38 AM CDT
I would suggest penalties would only ever have a place after dual-wielding weapons for non-special attacks is actually a bonus.
Right now there is ZERO gain, and even potential loss in defenses since arm-worn shields < held shields.
I am --- Navak
Right now there is ZERO gain, and even potential loss in defenses since arm-worn shields < held shields.
I am --- Navak
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Questions and Concerns
04/19/2008 01:34 PM CDT
<<I just hope that weapon size and weight are going to be factored in the final implementations for Offhand, but for reasons of game balance and without getting too ridiculous.>>
<<I got that. But no matter how good you are in using your off hand, it still wont negate the fact that welding two friggin broadswords is not only impractical, but also more hindering and ineffective in practice. I just think some hardcoded penalties should be in place to reflect that.>>
I know this is old, but this just makes me laugh.
So tell me, what does a S'kra Mur do in practice? I'm curious.
<<I got that. But no matter how good you are in using your off hand, it still wont negate the fact that welding two friggin broadswords is not only impractical, but also more hindering and ineffective in practice. I just think some hardcoded penalties should be in place to reflect that.>>
I know this is old, but this just makes me laugh.
So tell me, what does a S'kra Mur do in practice? I'm curious.
