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>>Pendus you're all chain and you can stay hidden on your opponents? I can't (I can hide to train well but get pointed immediately) but I have a mixed setup that includes brig and plate.<<
I haven't PvPed since 3.0 but in PvE I only get pointed out once in a while. The only piece that isn't damite mail is my gloves which are leather. What is your stealth hindrance?
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently somewhat hindered and your stealth is moderately hindered.
PENDUS
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Chain Armor
05/08/2013 02:55 PM CDT
>>But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently somewhat hindered and your stealth is moderately hindered.
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently rather hindered and your stealth is fairly hindered.
hmm then again, I think assassins are just buggy when it comes to stealth too. Either that or I am.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently rather hindered and your stealth is fairly hindered.
hmm then again, I think assassins are just buggy when it comes to stealth too. Either that or I am.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
ROBERTDH
Re: Chain Armor
05/08/2013 02:59 PM CDT
>The plan is still for thieves to have access to the magic skillet eventually, is it not?
This, but mind that access to the magic skillset is not the same thing as access to magic. Thieves will still have no attunement and be unable to learn scrolls or use non-self-activating enchantments.
This, but mind that access to the magic skillset is not the same thing as access to magic. Thieves will still have no attunement and be unable to learn scrolls or use non-self-activating enchantments.
STILVA
Re: Chain Armor
05/08/2013 04:34 PM CDT
>I'm a barbarian.
You're also at the top of the ladder which makes for a not-so-great example, though. If you looked at a Barbarian in the high double-digits of circles, they wouldn't be able to hide in chain vs a critter unless it was a very low perception type. (Or the Barb was underhunting, or intentionally put off training their main weapons to train secondaries for a few tens of ranks.)
And yes, I was referring to utilizing hiding while in chain, not simply training it. Being able to hide is pointless if you can't do any of the actions that require hiding itself, making the "just use cloth" statement self-defeating when the problem is stealth when using chain.
>I would gladly trade all the armor-based stealth hindrances for access to the magic skillset with my thief. Pretty awesome to have all those barries and damage reduction abilities you can stack on top of all that top-end armor you have access to as well. Guess I'm just being petty and jealous though :/
This might mean something to me if your character didn't 180 into some generic "touch me and I'll kill you" goon the second he hit a reasonable level of strength, but alas. Jokes aside, I seriously thought you'd sold when I returned to the game. The old Osus was much more entertaining.
You're also at the top of the ladder which makes for a not-so-great example, though. If you looked at a Barbarian in the high double-digits of circles, they wouldn't be able to hide in chain vs a critter unless it was a very low perception type. (Or the Barb was underhunting, or intentionally put off training their main weapons to train secondaries for a few tens of ranks.)
And yes, I was referring to utilizing hiding while in chain, not simply training it. Being able to hide is pointless if you can't do any of the actions that require hiding itself, making the "just use cloth" statement self-defeating when the problem is stealth when using chain.
>I would gladly trade all the armor-based stealth hindrances for access to the magic skillset with my thief. Pretty awesome to have all those barries and damage reduction abilities you can stack on top of all that top-end armor you have access to as well. Guess I'm just being petty and jealous though :/
This might mean something to me if your character didn't 180 into some generic "touch me and I'll kill you" goon the second he hit a reasonable level of strength, but alas. Jokes aside, I seriously thought you'd sold when I returned to the game. The old Osus was much more entertaining.
NINEVAH1
Re: Chain Armor
05/09/2013 10:12 AM CDT
>>Being able to hide is pointless if you can't do any of the actions that require hiding itself, making the "just use cloth" statement self-defeating when the problem is stealth when using chain.
Stealth users are supposed to use light hindering armor like cloth/leather/bone/and the lightest of chain armors. Complaining you can't hide because you don't have the skill to work off the hindrance of your armor, or because you wear armor that is too hindering doesn't make a compelling argument.
What kind of chain armor does your character wear? What is it's hindrance in full armor? Have you tried to find lighter/less hindering lumium pieces to see if that helps?
I ask all this because I have plenty of characters who can hide just fine at level, who are not survival primary, and wear a mix of leather and chain which usually gives a higher hindrance because of the mixed penalty, then when wearing just chain with skills being even. I have a hard time believing a moonie (who have the some of the best stealth buffs next to thieves) wearing chain can not hide effectively at all, no matter what. This seems more like poor player choices while outfitting characters than a game flaw.
Stealth users are supposed to use light hindering armor like cloth/leather/bone/and the lightest of chain armors. Complaining you can't hide because you don't have the skill to work off the hindrance of your armor, or because you wear armor that is too hindering doesn't make a compelling argument.
What kind of chain armor does your character wear? What is it's hindrance in full armor? Have you tried to find lighter/less hindering lumium pieces to see if that helps?
I ask all this because I have plenty of characters who can hide just fine at level, who are not survival primary, and wear a mix of leather and chain which usually gives a higher hindrance because of the mixed penalty, then when wearing just chain with skills being even. I have a hard time believing a moonie (who have the some of the best stealth buffs next to thieves) wearing chain can not hide effectively at all, no matter what. This seems more like poor player choices while outfitting characters than a game flaw.
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Chain Armor
05/09/2013 10:22 AM CDT
>>Stealth users are supposed to use light hindering armor like cloth/leather/bone/and the lightest of chain armors. Complaining you can't hide because you don't have the skill to work off the hindrance of your armor, or because you wear armor that is too hindering doesn't make a compelling argument.
In my thoughts this is pretty accurate, chain falls in the middle ground, where stealth is definitely affected negatively, but it still allows you to at least train it effectively. A lot of people that use chain also train a lighter armor for when they want to go full stealth mode.
I think what Kodius mentioned is the best thing he can do. Just double check that the % modifier isn't out of line for what he intends chains stealth hindrance should be at, at all levels.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
In my thoughts this is pretty accurate, chain falls in the middle ground, where stealth is definitely affected negatively, but it still allows you to at least train it effectively. A lot of people that use chain also train a lighter armor for when they want to go full stealth mode.
I think what Kodius mentioned is the best thing he can do. Just double check that the % modifier isn't out of line for what he intends chains stealth hindrance should be at, at all levels.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
PENDUS
Re: Chain Armor
05/09/2013 04:25 PM CDT
>>You're also at the top of the ladder which makes for a not-so-great example, though. If you looked at a Barbarian in the high double-digits of circles, they wouldn't be able to hide in chain vs a critter unless it was a very low perception type. (Or the Barb was underhunting, or intentionally put off training their main weapons to train secondaries for a few tens of ranks.)<<
Yes, they would. Once the hindrance comes off, it's off regardless of circle.
>>And yes, I was referring to utilizing hiding while in chain, not simply training it. Being able to hide is pointless if you can't do any of the actions that require hiding itself, making the "just use cloth" statement self-defeating when the problem is stealth when using chain.<<
I haven't had any issue ambushing, poaching, loading from hiding, or any other stealth maneuver I have in chain at level.
Yes, they would. Once the hindrance comes off, it's off regardless of circle.
>>And yes, I was referring to utilizing hiding while in chain, not simply training it. Being able to hide is pointless if you can't do any of the actions that require hiding itself, making the "just use cloth" statement self-defeating when the problem is stealth when using chain.<<
I haven't had any issue ambushing, poaching, loading from hiding, or any other stealth maneuver I have in chain at level.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Chain Armor
05/13/2013 02:33 PM CDT
Few days late to the party, but my Moonie wore all leathers and trained stealth, and then switched to full chain and continued training stealth. It's harder, to be sure, but you're moving stealth more than you're moving armor, and it should be ahead anyway. If you don't want to deal with the full penalty, just wear chain greaves.
For another data point, my Necromancer wore all leathers, and trained stealth (obviously) and stealth, nearing the 500's, is actually on par with light armor (~450). Deciding I wanted some more sweet TDPs while I backtrain some weapons, I started wearing chain greaves, and with MCS steel chain greaves, my Necromancers stealth is fairly hindered, and I can still hide just fine on anything I could hunt anyway.
Keep in mind your weapons will trail both evasion and stealth, so chances are you're going to be just fine with a little bit of a stealth hindrance fighting anyway. If you're trying to maximize that stealth bang for it's buck, then swap back to full leather. But I'm having no problem with it, and wish I'd done it earlier.
For another data point, my Necromancer wore all leathers, and trained stealth (obviously) and stealth, nearing the 500's, is actually on par with light armor (~450). Deciding I wanted some more sweet TDPs while I backtrain some weapons, I started wearing chain greaves, and with MCS steel chain greaves, my Necromancers stealth is fairly hindered, and I can still hide just fine on anything I could hunt anyway.
Keep in mind your weapons will trail both evasion and stealth, so chances are you're going to be just fine with a little bit of a stealth hindrance fighting anyway. If you're trying to maximize that stealth bang for it's buck, then swap back to full leather. But I'm having no problem with it, and wish I'd done it earlier.
SHADOWCHIEF3
Re: Chain Armor
05/14/2013 08:37 AM CDT
Im going to assume that Traim was initially talking about chain stealth hinderance in a pvp scenario. I'm also thinking its not that the hinderance is so bad in a pvp scenario, but that perception is already highly favorable compared to stealth. So more of a perception vs stealth issue.
GORTEOUS
Re: Chain Armor
05/14/2013 11:06 AM CDT
>> Im going to assume that Traim was initially talking about chain stealth hinderance in a pvp scenario. I'm also thinking its not that the hinderance is so bad in a pvp scenario, but that perception is already highly favorable compared to stealth. So more of a perception vs stealth issue.
Well, bear in mind that hindrance was the BIG change with Stealth in 3.0. We could get down to low single digits in 2.0; now we're at bare minimum in the double digits, usually in the high teens with anything heavier than Chain.
The contests have definitely changed, no doubt. But I think stealth hindrance is still the biggest factor in fail vs success.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
Well, bear in mind that hindrance was the BIG change with Stealth in 3.0. We could get down to low single digits in 2.0; now we're at bare minimum in the double digits, usually in the high teens with anything heavier than Chain.
The contests have definitely changed, no doubt. But I think stealth hindrance is still the biggest factor in fail vs success.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
CLERIXHAX
Chain vs Brigandine
06/14/2013 11:24 PM CDT
I recently picked up both a set of reinforced lumium mail armor and lightened scale armor to compare armor tertiary and armor choice. After comparing both sets of armor I see no reason to use Brigandine at all. The lumium chain apped equal in terms of protection and absorption to the lightened Brigandine, yet the Brigandine was more hindering to stealth and maneuvering. Why would anyone want to use a set of lightened Brigandine when they can purchase a set of reinforced chain? I would have thought the Brigandine would have had better protection due to it being a more hindering piece of armor. Both sets of armor were capped and made with the same density.
DRTYPRIOR
Re: Chain vs Brigandine
06/14/2013 11:43 PM CDT
>After comparing both sets of armor I see no reason to use Brigandine at all.
That may be right for you, but what about someone who wants a heavier set of Brig and doesn't care about the hindrance? Choices! :)
Captain Jack: "Who looks at a screwdriver and thinks 'Oooh, this could be a little more sonic'?"
The Doctor: "What? You never been bored? Never had a long night? Never had a lot of cabinets to put up?"
That may be right for you, but what about someone who wants a heavier set of Brig and doesn't care about the hindrance? Choices! :)
Captain Jack: "Who looks at a screwdriver and thinks 'Oooh, this could be a little more sonic'?"
The Doctor: "What? You never been bored? Never had a long night? Never had a lot of cabinets to put up?"
NINEVAH1
Re: Chain vs Brigandine
06/15/2013 05:47 AM CDT
>> reinforced lumium mail armor/lightened scale armor
>>Both sets of armor were capped and made with the same density.
Your final statement while technically true at the beginning of the forging process it is not the same with the final product you are holding. First the chain is the heaviest/best protecting level of chain, and the brig is the lightest/least protecting level of brigadine. On top of that the chain was reinforced which makes it even heavier/more protecting, and the brig was lightened which makes it even lighter/less protecting. You basically found the overlap in metal armors that Apu was speaking of, but making this a comparison on which is better isn't really fair with the pieces you selected. You got the absolute worst protecting brig armor you could find and compared it with the absolute best chain you could find while using the same material.
As noted by a previous poster the heavier brig armors are much better protecting, and can be favorably compared to plate on the heavier side. Brig also has a very narrow niche so many people are not likely to pick it.
>>Both sets of armor were capped and made with the same density.
Your final statement while technically true at the beginning of the forging process it is not the same with the final product you are holding. First the chain is the heaviest/best protecting level of chain, and the brig is the lightest/least protecting level of brigadine. On top of that the chain was reinforced which makes it even heavier/more protecting, and the brig was lightened which makes it even lighter/less protecting. You basically found the overlap in metal armors that Apu was speaking of, but making this a comparison on which is better isn't really fair with the pieces you selected. You got the absolute worst protecting brig armor you could find and compared it with the absolute best chain you could find while using the same material.
As noted by a previous poster the heavier brig armors are much better protecting, and can be favorably compared to plate on the heavier side. Brig also has a very narrow niche so many people are not likely to pick it.
HAMBARD
Re: Chain vs Brigandine
06/15/2013 06:56 AM CDT
I love Brig, it's a great niche for my bard since I can get some serious soak while not totally tanking my maneuverability and burden.
I don't stealth, so it seemed like the sweet spot for me, and I was previously wearing some mail -- then swapped up to lamellar and adjusted stances a tad. Now I'm much more resilient in combat with the way Ryken fights (very much a melee, sword and board style with buffs/debuffs).
High end brig also requires a bit less material than plate, so that was a consideration when I was calculating the rare materials required for a full setup as well.
Player of Ryken
---
"Life expectancy would grow by leaps and bounds if green vegetables smelled as good as bacon." ~ Doug Larson
AIM - RykenDR
I don't stealth, so it seemed like the sweet spot for me, and I was previously wearing some mail -- then swapped up to lamellar and adjusted stances a tad. Now I'm much more resilient in combat with the way Ryken fights (very much a melee, sword and board style with buffs/debuffs).
High end brig also requires a bit less material than plate, so that was a consideration when I was calculating the rare materials required for a full setup as well.
Player of Ryken
---
"Life expectancy would grow by leaps and bounds if green vegetables smelled as good as bacon." ~ Doug Larson
AIM - RykenDR
ELRIIC
Re: Chain vs Brigandine
06/15/2013 08:24 AM CDT
<<First the chain is the heaviest/best protecting level of chain, and the brig is the lightest/least protecting level of brigadine.
Incorrect.
Mail is the heaviest chain, lamellar is the heaviest brig.
The order for the three metal armor types, light/medium/heavy:
ring/chain/mail
scale/brig/lamellar
light plate/plate/heavy plate
Incorrect.
Mail is the heaviest chain, lamellar is the heaviest brig.
The order for the three metal armor types, light/medium/heavy:
ring/chain/mail
scale/brig/lamellar
light plate/plate/heavy plate
NINEVAH1
Re: Chain vs Brigandine
06/15/2013 10:18 AM CDT
>> reinforced lumium mail armor/lightened scale armor
>>First the chain is the heaviest/best protecting level of chain, and the brig is the lightest/least protecting level of brigadine.
I highlighted the key words in there for you.
>>Mail is the heaviest chain, lamellar is the heaviest brig.
>>The order for the three metal armor types, light/medium/heavy
I'm quite aware of how they are ordered and what is the lightest and heaviest. I've been making my own weapons and armor for all my characters since the systems were released.
More on point, lamellar was never mentioned, and that was my point. He compared reinforced mail (heaviest/most protecting) with lightened scale (lightest/least protecting), and complained of the overlap in protection but difference in hinderance. Which to me is obvious why that is, and is why I explained. Chain is a great armor as he just showed, and brig has a very small niche as he and Ryken both showed
>>First the chain is the heaviest/best protecting level of chain, and the brig is the lightest/least protecting level of brigadine.
I highlighted the key words in there for you.
>>Mail is the heaviest chain, lamellar is the heaviest brig.
>>The order for the three metal armor types, light/medium/heavy
I'm quite aware of how they are ordered and what is the lightest and heaviest. I've been making my own weapons and armor for all my characters since the systems were released.
More on point, lamellar was never mentioned, and that was my point. He compared reinforced mail (heaviest/most protecting) with lightened scale (lightest/least protecting), and complained of the overlap in protection but difference in hinderance. Which to me is obvious why that is, and is why I explained. Chain is a great armor as he just showed, and brig has a very small niche as he and Ryken both showed
ELRIIC
Re: Chain vs Brigandine
06/15/2013 11:58 AM CDT
Woah there. I wasn't questioning your competence or experience with the systems... Reading what you wrote was clearly confusing and for people who haven't been crafting their own weapons and armor since the systems were released, it was an easy mistake to be made.
Reinforcing and lightening have nothing to do with anything when you say that chain is the heaviest/best protecting level of chain because that statement is inaccurate. And someone reading over the thread trying to make a choice could easily be mislead based on what you as the expert who has been crafting his own weapons and armor since the systems were created chose. But you're the expert of course.
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: Chain vs Brigandine
06/15/2013 12:15 PM CDT
>Reading what you wrote was clearly confusing
I haven't ever crafted. His post was clear to me.
Pants.
I haven't ever crafted. His post was clear to me.
Pants.
NINEVAH1
Re: Chain vs Brigandine
06/15/2013 04:14 PM CDT
>>Elriic
LOL, wow you are super passive aggressive. Don't be mad because you read my post wrong, then posted to tell me I was wrong in which you also tell me information that I (and most other people who can open up Elanthipedia.org) already know. Then when I point out that you are the one wrong get all butthurt about it. If I came off angry or anything, my bad. I was annoyed that you want to jump on how and how much others post on here, then you fail at understanding my post but call me wrong. You should step back from the keyboard, take a breath, and read a post thoroughly before you reply to it.
>>I haven't ever crafted. His post was clear to me.
Thank you. I know I'm not always very clear in the point I'm trying to make, but I was pretty sure that post got it across if read correctly.
This is not the conflicts folder though so I'll make this my last one.
LOL, wow you are super passive aggressive. Don't be mad because you read my post wrong, then posted to tell me I was wrong in which you also tell me information that I (and most other people who can open up Elanthipedia.org) already know. Then when I point out that you are the one wrong get all butthurt about it. If I came off angry or anything, my bad. I was annoyed that you want to jump on how and how much others post on here, then you fail at understanding my post but call me wrong. You should step back from the keyboard, take a breath, and read a post thoroughly before you reply to it.
>>I haven't ever crafted. His post was clear to me.
Thank you. I know I'm not always very clear in the point I'm trying to make, but I was pretty sure that post got it across if read correctly.
This is not the conflicts folder though so I'll make this my last one.
HEITAK
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Chain vs Brigandine
06/15/2013 10:10 PM CDT
>>NINEVAH1
I'll just verify everything NINEVAH1 said was accurate to my knowledge, except one small detail.
>>and the brig was lightened which makes it even lighter/less protecting.
Lightening only lowers weight, it does not decrease protection.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
I'll just verify everything NINEVAH1 said was accurate to my knowledge, except one small detail.
>>and the brig was lightened which makes it even lighter/less protecting.
Lightening only lowers weight, it does not decrease protection.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
NINEVAH1
Re: Chain vs Brigandine
06/16/2013 08:22 AM CDT
>>Lightening only lowers weight, it does not decrease protection.
I assumed it worked like weapon lightening, and you lost some stats to balance the loss in weight. Learn something new every day.
I assumed it worked like weapon lightening, and you lost some stats to balance the loss in weight. Learn something new every day.
