Previous
You are all reading into my comments too much. Higher damaging weapons will always penetrate armor better. That is just the nature of DR's combat system. The tradeoff is they are slower to keep DPS consistent.
>>Considering mid-point casting is supposed to be comparable to bow damage, the stat and rank disparity (160 ranks), I think the numbers point to the superiority of TM. Doesn't this show there's room to boost bow damage across the board?
Let me repeat your testing using the current magic system (since I don't know what mechanics were in place during your testing and/or if vivi is horribly broken and making all magic look bad when in reality it is just a single spell or single critter being problematic.
Though from the testing I posted earlier, mid-cast spells were comparable to non-dual loaded shortbows. With dual loading shortbows would pull ahead, which is why I scaled it back a bit. Use a longbow/comp bow if you want the equivalent of 100-mana casts (for similar roundtimes as mages for harnessing mana for those 100 mana casts, right?)
>>My post along with logs and organized tables are in the Responses folder in the Lore category. But essentially, at the time, I was pointing out how much less effective the new bows were compared to the old ones on the old system. I used a master crafted Competition Longbow, and a Hirdu Bow, both on Test. And both were outperformed by a generic, store bought longbow used on Prime.
I've made substantial changes in the past two days and I'm not sure if those testing results are still valid. After the release to Plat I boosted bow damage by about 50% due to fixing a bug with the new math. I may increase lower-rt shortbow power by 1-2 levels to add back 10-20% of their damage.
>>Are you seeing bows as having their different niches of specialty(accuracy vs. speed vs. power)? This was kind of how I viewed melee weapons(LE/ME/HE/2HE) used to be in 2.0 and such.
No. But faster bows will do less damage per shot to keep DPS consistent. In DR's combat, less damage shots penetrate armor with more difficulty. This is nothing new.
>>If high end short bows aren't effective against heavy armor, why would I use one?
The higher the single-shot damage, the more effective an attack will be versus heavy armor/barriers. This can't be fixed without a large overhaul of DR's combat engine...
Attack1 does 10 damage - 10 points of protection - 70% absorption = 0 damage
Attack2 does 20 damage - 10 points of protection - 70% absorption = 7 damage
Attack3 does 30 damage - 10 points of protection - 70% absorption = 14 damage
Attack4 does 40 damage - 10 points of protection - 70% absorption = 21 damage
Attack4 is 200% base damage of Attack2, but actually does 300% damage.
But not every critter/player has capped heavy plate. Most use leather/chain. Shortbows do comparable DPS versus those. I can only offer you options. Not everyone has to take all of the options...
>>Food for thought
Anyone use Powershot? If not, why?
A situational maneuver would offer bows armor penetration on stunned/prone/immob/webbed/unconscious targets.
A channeled maneuver will auto-shoot bows with less aim-time than normal for 3 shots at a target.
Higher balance = higher chance to critical/recover
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
DR-KODIUS
NINEVAH1
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/13/2015 05:57 PM CDT
>>Anyone use Powershot? If not, why?
As a Thief I prefer Snipe.
As a Thief I prefer Snipe.
ZUBBA
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/13/2015 06:22 PM CDT
<<Let me repeat your testing using the current magic system (since I don't know what mechanics were in place during your testing and/or if vivi is horribly broken and making all magic look bad when in reality it is just a single spell or single critter being problematic.>>
These tests were just done last night.
These tests were just done last night.
DR-KODIUS
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/13/2015 08:45 PM CDT
Ok so here are my test results:
Competition shortbow did on average 66.8 damage to a Wyvern with 900 ranks in bow and 100 in all stats. Loading/Aiming/Firing took 1.33 + 6 + 1 = 8.33 seconds. DPS was 8.02.
Vivisection did on average 97.7 damage to a Wyvern with 900 ranks of TM and 100 in all stats. Preping/Aiming/Casting took 9 + 1 = 10 seconds. DPS was 9.77 and used 16% mana per straight prep/cast.
Vivisection had a 21% DPS advantage versus the competition shortbow here.
Using Dual load the damage jumped to 98.8 per doubleshot. Loading/Aiming/Firing took 2.66 + 6 + 1 = 9.66 seconds. Dual loaded competition shortbow shots were comparable to a 50 mana Vivisection in this test.
The problem I am faced with is how to balance bows vs crossbows vs TM, and still have this dual-load mechanic in the mix. The math is showing no good answers.
There is also a question of how much mana players should be expected to use while hunting and using TM spells. With more skill players can use more mana at higher circles, so their abilities grow with them. A bow will always do the same base damage. TM starts out worse than bows/melee then grows past them. This is more a magic thing than combat, but it is not something I can resolve easily.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Competition shortbow did on average 66.8 damage to a Wyvern with 900 ranks in bow and 100 in all stats. Loading/Aiming/Firing took 1.33 + 6 + 1 = 8.33 seconds. DPS was 8.02.
Vivisection did on average 97.7 damage to a Wyvern with 900 ranks of TM and 100 in all stats. Preping/Aiming/Casting took 9 + 1 = 10 seconds. DPS was 9.77 and used 16% mana per straight prep/cast.
Vivisection had a 21% DPS advantage versus the competition shortbow here.
Using Dual load the damage jumped to 98.8 per doubleshot. Loading/Aiming/Firing took 2.66 + 6 + 1 = 9.66 seconds. Dual loaded competition shortbow shots were comparable to a 50 mana Vivisection in this test.
The problem I am faced with is how to balance bows vs crossbows vs TM, and still have this dual-load mechanic in the mix. The math is showing no good answers.
There is also a question of how much mana players should be expected to use while hunting and using TM spells. With more skill players can use more mana at higher circles, so their abilities grow with them. A bow will always do the same base damage. TM starts out worse than bows/melee then grows past them. This is more a magic thing than combat, but it is not something I can resolve easily.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
OLSONM6
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/13/2015 08:58 PM CDT
>The problem I am faced with is how to balance bows vs crossbows vs TM, and still have this dual-load mechanic in the mix. The math is showing no good answers.
There's also the issue of TM being castable while attacking. Are there more damaging arrows than this? I would imagine that against different armor level opponents the results would be different, as well.
>There is also a question of how much mana players should be expected to use while hunting and using TM spells. With more skill players can use more mana at higher circles, so their abilities grow with them. A bow will always do the same base damage. TM starts out worse than bows/melee then grows past them. This is more a magic thing than combat, but it is not something I can resolve easily.
There's also the issue of primary vs. secondary vs. tertiary mana pool sizes/regen rates, so a WM and a ranger would have different mana usage issues.
Don't forget to vote:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
There's also the issue of TM being castable while attacking. Are there more damaging arrows than this? I would imagine that against different armor level opponents the results would be different, as well.
>There is also a question of how much mana players should be expected to use while hunting and using TM spells. With more skill players can use more mana at higher circles, so their abilities grow with them. A bow will always do the same base damage. TM starts out worse than bows/melee then grows past them. This is more a magic thing than combat, but it is not something I can resolve easily.
There's also the issue of primary vs. secondary vs. tertiary mana pool sizes/regen rates, so a WM and a ranger would have different mana usage issues.
Don't forget to vote:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
ZUBBA
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/13/2015 10:26 PM CDT
I don't see the conflicts. Bows are simply much less effective than TM at equal ranks. It's devolved to the point that what was initially a "perk" or damage booster for some skills in dual load, is now considered necessary for bows to almost reach parity with TM damage calcs.
Kill dual load if that's what it will take to fix bows.
Kill dual load if that's what it will take to fix bows.
DR-KODIUS
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/13/2015 10:29 PM CDT
I need to think on this a bit more and run some more numbers.
It may make sense to adjust the aim time in some cases to provide more parity for DPS.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
It may make sense to adjust the aim time in some cases to provide more parity for DPS.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
DR-KODIUS
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/13/2015 10:36 PM CDT
>>Kill dual load if that's what it will take to fix bows.
Except MUs can use bows and TM, which is one aspect of my dilemma.... Dual Load/Snipe are tools that provide parity for NMUs.
Though I keep having to remind myself that single-shot TM is artificially high and AoE TM is artificially low due to the lack of TM Foci. Once those are out you might see less people using bows in favor of the increased damage/effects.
If I bring shortbows up to the damage level of TM, crossbows will 1-shot kill anything in the game. That is a problem....
Tomorrow I need to run more numbers through combat. I'd spent about 80 hours balancing bows with respect to weapon stats, but those stats aren't behaving in the combat system. A 5% stat bonus is giving a 20% damage bonus due to all the multipliers involved.
This means I'll have to add some decimal precision to keep things more closely coupled. Wheee!
I really want this to be balanced. Just takes too bloody long.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Except MUs can use bows and TM, which is one aspect of my dilemma.... Dual Load/Snipe are tools that provide parity for NMUs.
Though I keep having to remind myself that single-shot TM is artificially high and AoE TM is artificially low due to the lack of TM Foci. Once those are out you might see less people using bows in favor of the increased damage/effects.
If I bring shortbows up to the damage level of TM, crossbows will 1-shot kill anything in the game. That is a problem....
Tomorrow I need to run more numbers through combat. I'd spent about 80 hours balancing bows with respect to weapon stats, but those stats aren't behaving in the combat system. A 5% stat bonus is giving a 20% damage bonus due to all the multipliers involved.
This means I'll have to add some decimal precision to keep things more closely coupled. Wheee!
I really want this to be balanced. Just takes too bloody long.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
ZUBBA
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/13/2015 10:40 PM CDT
All of this also ignores the facts that:
1) Using TM does not prevent the use of parry.
2) Using TM does not trigger penalties against shield or offense.
3) TM is much more flexible in damage type selection.
4) TM allows the caster to use another attack type (bow, melee) simultaneously.
TM incurs all of these advantages, AND enjoys a 21% higher DPS under your own tests. How is that anywhere near balanced?
Kill dual load, give bows a 5-15% higher DPS vs TM, and erase the shield penalty for Barbs/Paladins/Rangers.
1) Using TM does not prevent the use of parry.
2) Using TM does not trigger penalties against shield or offense.
3) TM is much more flexible in damage type selection.
4) TM allows the caster to use another attack type (bow, melee) simultaneously.
TM incurs all of these advantages, AND enjoys a 21% higher DPS under your own tests. How is that anywhere near balanced?
Kill dual load, give bows a 5-15% higher DPS vs TM, and erase the shield penalty for Barbs/Paladins/Rangers.
DR-KODIUS
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/13/2015 11:29 PM CDT
Did you even read what I posted? I'm done discussing this issue with you.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
NINEVAH1
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/14/2015 12:02 AM CDT
>>TM incurs all of these advantages, AND enjoys a 21% higher DPS under your own tests. How is that anywhere near balanced?
The problem here is that you are taking (from my testing) one of the weakest bows from new crafting and applying it's results to all bows. You don't even have to stop using a short bow to see the increases in damage. If the same test were done with a battle shortbow I believe the numbers would be much closer together. Long and comp bows just get more powerful.
In my very short and limited testing with a good selection of the new bows (including all 3 battle bows) the competition bows were great for accuracy but lacked power, but there are other templates with increased load time like the battle and alpine shortbow templates that have a ton of power, and killed almost twice as fast as the competition bow.
I need to rebuild my collection of bows after the Test refresh and get more than a couple handfuls of kills with each one to show any real numbers, but I'm not seeing bows as a whole underpowered in PvE. Most of the complaints I have seen involve the reduced load time (and power) bows that are weaker than they used to be. Draw Strength (Load RT) = Power is the best way to look at the new bows.
The problem here is that you are taking (from my testing) one of the weakest bows from new crafting and applying it's results to all bows. You don't even have to stop using a short bow to see the increases in damage. If the same test were done with a battle shortbow I believe the numbers would be much closer together. Long and comp bows just get more powerful.
In my very short and limited testing with a good selection of the new bows (including all 3 battle bows) the competition bows were great for accuracy but lacked power, but there are other templates with increased load time like the battle and alpine shortbow templates that have a ton of power, and killed almost twice as fast as the competition bow.
I need to rebuild my collection of bows after the Test refresh and get more than a couple handfuls of kills with each one to show any real numbers, but I'm not seeing bows as a whole underpowered in PvE. Most of the complaints I have seen involve the reduced load time (and power) bows that are weaker than they used to be. Draw Strength (Load RT) = Power is the best way to look at the new bows.
ZUBBA
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/14/2015 12:14 AM CDT
<<The problem here is that you are taking (from my testing) one of the weakest bows from new crafting and applying it's results to all bows>>
Via the tests I posted there is a marginal difference in the total DPS between comp bows and short bows. They have roughly the same DPS across the board thanks to the added times. The ranges among bows aren't anywhere near the ranges from a minimum prep to a max prep TM spell.
Via the tests I posted there is a marginal difference in the total DPS between comp bows and short bows. They have roughly the same DPS across the board thanks to the added times. The ranges among bows aren't anywhere near the ranges from a minimum prep to a max prep TM spell.
ZUBBA
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/14/2015 12:22 AM CDT
<<Did you even read what I posted? I'm done discussing this issue with you.>>
I read it. Where was I incorrect in the facts I replied?
I read it. Where was I incorrect in the facts I replied?
GORTEOUS
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/14/2015 12:38 AM CDT
If damage for dual load is radically high, shave the damage bonus from AIM off of the second shot but keep the accuracy boost. Or (less ideal) throw a random miss chance on it. You don't really want to penalize the first shot since it would interfere with it's ability to penetrate heavy armor/defenses.
Whatever sort of ratio you're attempting to maintain is going to be completely destroyed if the bow user manages to knock their opponent down, though(since there is no balance in the various types of debilitation).
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
Whatever sort of ratio you're attempting to maintain is going to be completely destroyed if the bow user manages to knock their opponent down, though(since there is no balance in the various types of debilitation).
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
NINEVAH1
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/14/2015 12:49 AM CDT
>> Via the tests I posted there is a marginal difference in the total DPS between comp bows and short bows. They have roughly the same DPS across the board thanks to the added times. The ranges among bows aren't anywhere near the ranges from a minimum prep to a max prep TM spell.
You are making some pretty definitive statements from testing 2 of the weakest bows you could pick. I understand it's not as easy to test all the bows in Plat, but gauging the whole new aimable ranged system on those 2 bows is just doing it a disservice. I've tested reduced and increased load time bows across all 3 types of bows and I've seen a bigger range of DPS than what you posted. I think you are asking for way too much to be changed with a small glimpse of the picture.
You are making some pretty definitive statements from testing 2 of the weakest bows you could pick. I understand it's not as easy to test all the bows in Plat, but gauging the whole new aimable ranged system on those 2 bows is just doing it a disservice. I've tested reduced and increased load time bows across all 3 types of bows and I've seen a bigger range of DPS than what you posted. I think you are asking for way too much to be changed with a small glimpse of the picture.
ZUBBA
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/14/2015 12:56 AM CDT
<<You are making some pretty definitive statements from testing 2 of the weakest bows you could pick. I understand it's not as easy to test all the bows in Plat, but gauging the whole new aimable ranged system on those 2 bows is just doing it a disservice. I've tested reduced and increased load time bows across all 3 types of bows and I've seen a bigger range of DPS than what you posted. I think you are asking for way too much to be changed with a small glimpse of the picture.>>
I'm working with the information I'm able to get. I'm perfectly willing to accept the idea that I could be wrong, but the data posted so far in this thread has only served to reinforce what I've stated. You claim a large range in DPS is present in the system as it stands, but you give no data, if you could grab some numbers that'd be great.
I'm working with the information I'm able to get. I'm perfectly willing to accept the idea that I could be wrong, but the data posted so far in this thread has only served to reinforce what I've stated. You claim a large range in DPS is present in the system as it stands, but you give no data, if you could grab some numbers that'd be great.
NINEVAH1
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/14/2015 01:15 AM CDT
I posted my stats/skills earlier in the thread but here they are again: 723 Bows/80 Agility/70 Strength/no-buffs/old capped basilisk arrows
Mangrove (same as ash) competition shortbow: 8.3 shots per kill = 69 (69.139) seconds to kill (using Kodius's math for time)
Hickory battle (comp) bow: 3.6 shots per kill = 30 (29.988) seconds to kill
That's been the weakest and the strongest of the bows I've tested so far, and as far as I can tell should be about accurate if you don't count the first handful of toy short bows.
Mangrove (same as ash) competition shortbow: 8.3 shots per kill = 69 (69.139) seconds to kill (using Kodius's math for time)
Hickory battle (comp) bow: 3.6 shots per kill = 30 (29.988) seconds to kill
That's been the weakest and the strongest of the bows I've tested so far, and as far as I can tell should be about accurate if you don't count the first handful of toy short bows.
NINEVAH1
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/14/2015 01:17 AM CDT
Double post, but I forgot to add this was in adult dillos.
ZUBBA
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/14/2015 02:44 AM CDT
<<Mangrove (same as ash) competition shortbow: 8.3 shots per kill = 69 (69.139) seconds to kill (using Kodius's math for time)
Hickory battle (comp) bow: 3.6 shots per kill = 30 (29.988) seconds to kill>>
Load time for a comp bow is 4 seconds. Full aim time is between 5-7 seconds, fire time is 1 second. The minimum total round time for a full aim shot from a comp bow is 10 seconds. The range is 10-12 seconds per shot. With the information you've posted you're averaging 8.33 seconds per full aim; considering that's impossible, I think something is up with your numbers.
Hickory battle (comp) bow: 3.6 shots per kill = 30 (29.988) seconds to kill>>
Load time for a comp bow is 4 seconds. Full aim time is between 5-7 seconds, fire time is 1 second. The minimum total round time for a full aim shot from a comp bow is 10 seconds. The range is 10-12 seconds per shot. With the information you've posted you're averaging 8.33 seconds per full aim; considering that's impossible, I think something is up with your numbers.
THOMPSONJ209
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/14/2015 06:55 AM CDT
This was with a Nisha Short Bow. I realize from the reading that the new bows are better. Do the teleport items still exist in test? Where are they in Mer'kesh?
My character was already in Celps. He tears through them with the bow usually. I sat and fired, and fired, and fired. Couldn't kill one. Thought: "I'll use "Powershot"
>mane powershot
You square up your feet and arch your back while searching for an engaged enemy to target.
>
* An asaren celpeze claws at you. You evade, stepping aside in the nick of time.
[You're bruised, nimbly balanced and have slight advantage.]
>
* Timing it well, an asaren celpeze claws at you. You dodge, leaning to one side with no room to spare.
[You're bruised, nimbly balanced and opponent has slight advantage.]
>
* Moving well, an asaren celpeze claws at you. You attempt to dodge. The talons lands a good strike to your right arm.
[You're hurt, nimbly balanced with no advantage.]
>
With a loud twang, you let fly your arrow!
Your errant arrow results in nothing more than a soft thud against an asaren celpeze's heavy leather skin.
The broad-barbed arrow lands nearby!
PENDUS
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/14/2015 09:05 AM CDT
>> Load time for a comp bow is 4 seconds. Full aim time is between 5-7 seconds, fire time is 1 second. The minimum total round time for a full aim shot from a comp bow is 10 seconds. The range is 10-12 seconds per shot. With the information you've posted you're averaging 8.33 seconds per full aim; considering that's impossible, I think something is up with your numbers. <<
I tested last night in moths with tier 5 bows. Comp bow did drastically higher dps than any shortbow I used. Dual load took 6 arrows. So 3 loads at 8 seconds each. Three full aims at 5 seconds. 24+15=39 seconds. The competition short bow took 14 arrows. It took 7 load times. So we have 28 seconds of load times and 7 full aims. 28+35=63 seconds. On top of that, the weakest hit with the comp bow was a very heavy hit. The highest was an awesome. The competition short bow was anywhere from light to strong.
I also did single load tests. They both performed exactly as the dual load tests. 14 arrows for competition short bow and 6 for comp bow. I tried longbow as well and it finished right in the middle(like it should) at between 9-10 arrows per kill on both dual load and single load shots.
With the damage on the normal comp bow(I didn't have a battle comp bow to test), there's zero chance I'd ever use short bow. Moths have the equivalent of chain armor so right in the middle. I wouldn't use it against something at level and I'd want the harder hits(easier to stun with) in PvP. Longbow seems like a nice middle ground if the round times are too high for you on comp bow. My suggestion for short bow(if possible) is to decrease the aiming time on only short bow to increase dps without increasing shot strength.
I tested last night in moths with tier 5 bows. Comp bow did drastically higher dps than any shortbow I used. Dual load took 6 arrows. So 3 loads at 8 seconds each. Three full aims at 5 seconds. 24+15=39 seconds. The competition short bow took 14 arrows. It took 7 load times. So we have 28 seconds of load times and 7 full aims. 28+35=63 seconds. On top of that, the weakest hit with the comp bow was a very heavy hit. The highest was an awesome. The competition short bow was anywhere from light to strong.
I also did single load tests. They both performed exactly as the dual load tests. 14 arrows for competition short bow and 6 for comp bow. I tried longbow as well and it finished right in the middle(like it should) at between 9-10 arrows per kill on both dual load and single load shots.
With the damage on the normal comp bow(I didn't have a battle comp bow to test), there's zero chance I'd ever use short bow. Moths have the equivalent of chain armor so right in the middle. I wouldn't use it against something at level and I'd want the harder hits(easier to stun with) in PvP. Longbow seems like a nice middle ground if the round times are too high for you on comp bow. My suggestion for short bow(if possible) is to decrease the aiming time on only short bow to increase dps without increasing shot strength.
SPYRAUX
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/14/2015 09:46 AM CDT
>>Anyone use Powershot? If not, why?
So far, I haven't ever really felt I encountered any noteworthy gains from the ability since it's been available. Often I find them weaker than a full aim, or a snipe. What is the mechanic supposed to do, technically? I assumed an occasional shot meant to deliver high end damage?
~Van
So far, I haven't ever really felt I encountered any noteworthy gains from the ability since it's been available. Often I find them weaker than a full aim, or a snipe. What is the mechanic supposed to do, technically? I assumed an occasional shot meant to deliver high end damage?
~Van
THOMPSONJ209
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/14/2015 09:59 AM CDT
>>>Often I find them weaker than a full aim
that has been my exp. also.
Just now tested it in test and got another Thud against skin, after getting good hits from regular shots.
In prime I find it isn't very useful except to keep expertise going.
SPYRAUX
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/14/2015 10:10 AM CDT
>>My suggestion for short bow(if possible) is to decrease the aiming time on only short bow to increase dps without increasing shot strength.
I think this sounds like a good idea. It's a small function change that leaves most the bows scaling as they should, while bringing the area that you're concerned about a little more into the damage margin. I feel like it kind of makes a little sense too, as short bows were generally made for shorter, more closer quarters, so they're smaller, and easier to wield and aim.
This also increases the potential desire to use a shortbow, despite it's weaker properties, through it's potential tactical advantages of being swift.
In some ways I don't think the dual load mechanic should be completely considered, when balancing the damage of bows. I think it should kind of be handled on it's own afterwards. Otherwise we run the risk of overcompensation. My experience pretty much lines up with Pendus'. So far, the bows seem to scale in damage potential as it seems they are intended to. If shortbows are falling a little short, then a few speed adjustments could probably remedy this.
For dual shot, it's a second arrow, naturally it's just plain going to impact the overall dps drastically, assuming it's not useless. But keeping it into consideration kind of makes the mechanic a necessity for bow calcs and feasibility for use. It would be similar to the concept of nerfing TM of single spells, because an AoE versions produces too much overall dps. Which objectively speaking, does drastically increase the overall damage of mage spells considerably. But it's just kind of dismissed as it's own casting paradigm.
~Van
I think this sounds like a good idea. It's a small function change that leaves most the bows scaling as they should, while bringing the area that you're concerned about a little more into the damage margin. I feel like it kind of makes a little sense too, as short bows were generally made for shorter, more closer quarters, so they're smaller, and easier to wield and aim.
This also increases the potential desire to use a shortbow, despite it's weaker properties, through it's potential tactical advantages of being swift.
In some ways I don't think the dual load mechanic should be completely considered, when balancing the damage of bows. I think it should kind of be handled on it's own afterwards. Otherwise we run the risk of overcompensation. My experience pretty much lines up with Pendus'. So far, the bows seem to scale in damage potential as it seems they are intended to. If shortbows are falling a little short, then a few speed adjustments could probably remedy this.
For dual shot, it's a second arrow, naturally it's just plain going to impact the overall dps drastically, assuming it's not useless. But keeping it into consideration kind of makes the mechanic a necessity for bow calcs and feasibility for use. It would be similar to the concept of nerfing TM of single spells, because an AoE versions produces too much overall dps. Which objectively speaking, does drastically increase the overall damage of mage spells considerably. But it's just kind of dismissed as it's own casting paradigm.
~Van
ZUBBA
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/14/2015 10:50 AM CDT
<<Comp bow did drastically higher dps than any shortbow I used. Dual load took 6 arrows. So 3 loads at 8 seconds each. Three full aims at 5 seconds. 24+15=39 seconds.>>
A single dual load at 8 seconds, plus a 5 second aim, plus 1 second shot rt yields 14 seconds minimum rt. so the minimum in your description is 42 seconds and the max would be 48 seconds. I think it's important to count total since the big issue is dps vs TM; though the disparity between short and comp could very well be another.
OLSONM6
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/14/2015 11:00 AM CDT
>It would be similar to the concept of nerfing TM of single spells, because an AoE versions produces too much overall dps. Which objectively speaking, does drastically increase the overall damage of mage spells considerably. But it's just kind of dismissed as it's own casting paradigm.
It's more akin to nerfing single shot TM because multi-shot TM produces too much overall DPS. It's not like the second arrow hits a different target.
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It's more akin to nerfing single shot TM because multi-shot TM produces too much overall DPS. It's not like the second arrow hits a different target.
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PENDUS
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/14/2015 11:09 AM CDT
>>A single dual load at 8 seconds, plus a 5 second aim, plus 1 second shot rt yields 14 seconds minimum rt. so the minimum in your description is 42 seconds and the max would be 48 seconds. I think it's important to count total since the big issue is dps vs TM; though the disparity between short and comp could very well be another. <<
That would be the case if you couldn't load during that one second shot RT and you are able to so it's pretty much negligible. That's why I didn't include it. Even if I did include it for comp bow, short bow has the same 1 second extra so the time to kill differences are the same. I'd also like to test with elemental arrows to see if that changes things. I'll be on test around 8 pm EST if anyone wants to loan me some of them for some testing.
Dual load needs to stay in if MU's can continue to double dip with TM and bows at the same time.
That would be the case if you couldn't load during that one second shot RT and you are able to so it's pretty much negligible. That's why I didn't include it. Even if I did include it for comp bow, short bow has the same 1 second extra so the time to kill differences are the same. I'd also like to test with elemental arrows to see if that changes things. I'll be on test around 8 pm EST if anyone wants to loan me some of them for some testing.
Dual load needs to stay in if MU's can continue to double dip with TM and bows at the same time.
OLSONM6
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/14/2015 11:14 AM CDT
>That would be the case if you couldn't load during that one second shot RT and you are able to so it's pretty much negligible.
You can load during RT?
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You can load during RT?
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PENDUS
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/14/2015 11:28 AM CDT
I've always been able to during that one second fire RT.
THOMLEE
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/14/2015 11:45 AM CDT
>I've always been able to during that one second fire RT.
I have not been able to replicate this. If this is true then it's a bug.
Either way it should not be removed from the DPS calculation.
The serrated-bodkin arrow lands nearby!
[You're solidly balanced and have slight advantage.]
[Roundtime 1 sec.]
>load
...wait 1 seconds.
The serrated-bodkin arrow lands nearby!
[You're solidly balanced and have slight advantage.]
[Roundtime 1 sec.]
>load
...wait 1 seconds.
I have not been able to replicate this. If this is true then it's a bug.
Either way it should not be removed from the DPS calculation.
The serrated-bodkin arrow lands nearby!
[You're solidly balanced and have slight advantage.]
[Roundtime 1 sec.]
>load
...wait 1 seconds.
The serrated-bodkin arrow lands nearby!
[You're solidly balanced and have slight advantage.]
[Roundtime 1 sec.]
>load
...wait 1 seconds.
PENDUS
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/14/2015 12:15 PM CDT
Either way, it doesn't change the time to kill difference between short bow and comp bow since short bow also has the 1 second fire time.
THOMLEE
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/14/2015 12:31 PM CDT
>Either way, it doesn't change the time to kill difference between short bow and comp bow since short bow also has the 1 second fire time.
Fair enough.
I just get antsy about published DPS when they could be used to compare against other weapon/magic types.
I think Kodius stated that Short Bows (and LEs?) need some sort of extra something and I completely agree. I'm not entirely sure how critical strikes work in this game but that would be my first suggestion.
Maybe something to do with agility having a great impact on damage over strength.
Fair enough.
I just get antsy about published DPS when they could be used to compare against other weapon/magic types.
I think Kodius stated that Short Bows (and LEs?) need some sort of extra something and I completely agree. I'm not entirely sure how critical strikes work in this game but that would be my first suggestion.
Maybe something to do with agility having a great impact on damage over strength.
PENDUS
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/14/2015 12:31 PM CDT
LE's are particularly tough because it's not like you can speed them up any more. One second RTs is as low as it gets. If it was possible, the only thing I could see that could help LE's is having a higher chance to cause a bleeder. Kind of like death by a thousand cuts. You won't get hit hard, but you're going to have little nicks all over that sap vitality through bleeds.
DR-RAESH
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/14/2015 12:33 PM CDT
LEs need the "in teeth" slot. Then you could triple wield.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
NIKPACK
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/14/2015 01:09 PM CDT
<<LEs need the "in teeth" slot. Then you could triple wield.
So you're (comically) suggesting something like this guy from One Piece?
http://i.imgur.com/wEFQbDN.jpg
Nikpack
So you're (comically) suggesting something like this guy from One Piece?
http://i.imgur.com/wEFQbDN.jpg
Nikpack
OLSONM6
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/14/2015 01:19 PM CDT
Are we talking about LE = large edged or LE = light edged?
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PENDUS
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/14/2015 01:30 PM CDT
If you meant Large Edged, I thought you meant light oops.
SPYRAUX
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/14/2015 01:54 PM CDT
>>It's more akin to nerfing single shot TM because multi-shot TM produces too much overall DPS. It's not like the second arrow hits a different target.
But that was specifically my point. If all we're doing is looking at overall dps, then AoE spells create huge amounts, regardless of them being different targets. You could count multi-hit targetted spells as well, as it would resemble the dual shot more on a mirroring basis. But the point was, any "enhancement" to an attack, is going to create more overall damage. But you shouldn't base the balance of the base ability because the separate enhanced ability is providing unexpected numbers. Reversing things under the AoE concept, if you created an arrow volley, and shot 10 arrows simultaneously into the air and they randomly fell down on 10 different targets. You don't nerf the single bow shot, because OMG, the volley was too powerful.
~Van
But that was specifically my point. If all we're doing is looking at overall dps, then AoE spells create huge amounts, regardless of them being different targets. You could count multi-hit targetted spells as well, as it would resemble the dual shot more on a mirroring basis. But the point was, any "enhancement" to an attack, is going to create more overall damage. But you shouldn't base the balance of the base ability because the separate enhanced ability is providing unexpected numbers. Reversing things under the AoE concept, if you created an arrow volley, and shot 10 arrows simultaneously into the air and they randomly fell down on 10 different targets. You don't nerf the single bow shot, because OMG, the volley was too powerful.
~Van
SPYRAUX
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/14/2015 01:59 PM CDT
We're walking a slippery slope here. If you can triple wield with teeth, then you'll soon be finding tail races asking for tail blades, so that they can quadruple wield.
~Van
~Van
SPYRAUX
Re: [TEST] Bow changes
05/14/2015 02:01 PM CDT
All on their own separate, rotating RT counters, of course.
~Van
~Van
