I lost the post somewhere. What was the verdict on snipe? How'd it end up...
As it is now, 420 bow vs. 350 evasion and 285 shield snipe lands grazing strikes from missle, fire lands good to hard hits.
Melee range same results only much better hit ratio and more damage (medium shield for reference)
And did the contest turn carzy hard? 480 stealth versus 380 perception, spectator of the fight can see me snipe someone else?
Just wondering.
Player of Diggan, Ranger & Halfing of Aesry
TILTINGVAGABOND
DR-KODIUS
Re: Verdict on Snipe?
01/31/2013 01:02 AM CST
That sounds like something is going awry. What is the exact messaging when you snipe? Using a shield? Ranger or Thief, any confidence/nature pool bonus going on? Any buffs in use? What critter?
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
TSANGL
Re: Verdict on Snipe?
01/31/2013 08:17 AM CST
Kodius,
I'll add to this - seems horribly awry. :)
Ranger here, using a small shield, arm-worn. Good bonus, been in full nature areas... I'm unbuffed and also against an unbuffed barb.
Approximate ranks for me:
1k+ bow, 800 Missile mastery, 1200+ stealth
Approximate ranks for barb:
1k shield, 1k perception, 900-1k evasion
Fully aimed snipe from missle range lands good hits, sometimes heavy if I'm very very lucky. I can get the first snipe in, no messaging that he sees me. I don't retreat, hide immediately and he can see me hide... plus see every subsequent snipe - all without doing anything, literally just standing there. Goes for all distances - melee, pole, missle.
Standing at melee firing... I get a bit more damage, maybe 1 step up... but still the same issues with everything else.
Think with where sniping stands now... we can't 1-shot anything anymore... and the opening shot is basically our only shot, as ranged users now have a 4 second engagement in combat... if we retreat, we take an offense penalty for a few seconds too... plus we can't hide again. I'm all for the balance, and I'm hoping that something went weird with the code during the 3.0 release and this isn't the state of the union.
I don't have any of these issues sniping elders... can repeat this all day long at any range/duration without being revealed.
Anything else you need, let me know and I can provide.
I'll add to this - seems horribly awry. :)
Ranger here, using a small shield, arm-worn. Good bonus, been in full nature areas... I'm unbuffed and also against an unbuffed barb.
Approximate ranks for me:
1k+ bow, 800 Missile mastery, 1200+ stealth
Approximate ranks for barb:
1k shield, 1k perception, 900-1k evasion
Fully aimed snipe from missle range lands good hits, sometimes heavy if I'm very very lucky. I can get the first snipe in, no messaging that he sees me. I don't retreat, hide immediately and he can see me hide... plus see every subsequent snipe - all without doing anything, literally just standing there. Goes for all distances - melee, pole, missle.
Standing at melee firing... I get a bit more damage, maybe 1 step up... but still the same issues with everything else.
Think with where sniping stands now... we can't 1-shot anything anymore... and the opening shot is basically our only shot, as ranged users now have a 4 second engagement in combat... if we retreat, we take an offense penalty for a few seconds too... plus we can't hide again. I'm all for the balance, and I'm hoping that something went weird with the code during the 3.0 release and this isn't the state of the union.
I don't have any of these issues sniping elders... can repeat this all day long at any range/duration without being revealed.
Anything else you need, let me know and I can provide.
REWYN
Re: Verdict on Snipe?
01/31/2013 10:52 AM CST
>>Think with where sniping stands now... we can't 1-shot anything anymore... and the opening shot is basically our only shot, as ranged users now have a 4 second engagement in combat... if we retreat, we take an offense penalty for a few seconds too... plus we can't hide again. I'm all for the balance, and I'm hoping that something went weird with the code during the 3.0 release and this isn't the state of the union.
A design goal around 3.0 was there are no more one shots. Another one was (as I understand. I won't put words in Kodius mouth) was that ranged would no longer be as lethal as melee. In 2.0 ranged was as powerful (blow to blow) if not far more so than melee.
I would not expect you to get one shots, and if you are getting good to very heavy hits with your initial attack, given how vitality words, then that is already very good (you've likely blown through all of their buffer vitality in an opening surprise shot).
Snipes main benefit has always been the inability for someone to retaliate against you immediately, the other items have been icing on the cake and really something more of a virtue of how combat worked in 2.0 (more accuracy=more damage).
As to the stealth contests (him seeing you) I dont know the logic behind that. I imagine once you have snipped or stealth attacked someone they gain some perception bonus against you, and I also imagine snipe is a penalized stealth contest. If both are true than at your skill ranges it would be easy to make up to 200 ranks. Then again, could be its bugged or unbalanced, no idea.
Looking at the raw skill, then I imagine you wont destroy this guy (one 1K offense vs two 1K defenses). Was he holding a shield or wearing it? If holding, was it a large shield?
A design goal around 3.0 was there are no more one shots. Another one was (as I understand. I won't put words in Kodius mouth) was that ranged would no longer be as lethal as melee. In 2.0 ranged was as powerful (blow to blow) if not far more so than melee.
I would not expect you to get one shots, and if you are getting good to very heavy hits with your initial attack, given how vitality words, then that is already very good (you've likely blown through all of their buffer vitality in an opening surprise shot).
Snipes main benefit has always been the inability for someone to retaliate against you immediately, the other items have been icing on the cake and really something more of a virtue of how combat worked in 2.0 (more accuracy=more damage).
As to the stealth contests (him seeing you) I dont know the logic behind that. I imagine once you have snipped or stealth attacked someone they gain some perception bonus against you, and I also imagine snipe is a penalized stealth contest. If both are true than at your skill ranges it would be easy to make up to 200 ranks. Then again, could be its bugged or unbalanced, no idea.
Looking at the raw skill, then I imagine you wont destroy this guy (one 1K offense vs two 1K defenses). Was he holding a shield or wearing it? If holding, was it a large shield?
TSANGL
Re: Verdict on Snipe?
01/31/2013 11:35 AM CST
Think you missed my point, and over-explained something I was in agreement with. :)
SINCE... we can't 1-shot people anymore as with 2.0 snipe, it just seems like there's a lot of stacked penalties against an already nerfed snipe ability. Whether it's as intended or whether it's a malfunction of the 3.0 changes, not sure.
2.0 (unbalanced):
Snipe someone > insta-death mostly > hide or stay hidden > snipe again if needed > insta-death surely.
3.0:
Snipe someone > can't retreat (penalty), can't leave the room (penalty), and can't hide again (penalty).
For me personally, the inability to hide again is one of the main drawbacks of the 3.0 snipe. I'll gladly land little hits all day from hiding and not one-shot-kills. But as it stands, why even snipe? I may as well just stay out in the open with a shield on my arm.
If using snipe which provides an accuracy bonus, fully negates the ability to hide... I think that's a bit excessive in the current combat ecosphere.
Again, hoping that there is a bug or some growing pains. Enjoying the changes thus far!
REWYN
Re: Verdict on Snipe?
01/31/2013 12:07 PM CST
Ah sorry. Little sleep + no coffee this morning on the west cosat.
Have you tried the performance against someone with less perception to see if its the contest necessarily and where the breaking point is for you to stay in hiding. It think that would be valuable.
And also..I think you can retreat, you just take a temporary offense bonus.
What it sounds like though is in general the stealth checks seem a bit rough, but as I recall, stealthing IN combat was always very very hard, where stealthing out of combat was quite a bit easier in PvP. My presumption is this.
Your at 1200 ranks, they are at 1000
You attack, that sets you to in combat, he now has a perception bonus against you because he is facing you
That bonus is enough to put him in the range at you are failing stealth checks. So maybe its not really a snipe related issue but a general stealth related issue with facing. I presumed he did not use the WATCH command because that would be way to harsh. WATCH should just be removed.
Have you tried the performance against someone with less perception to see if its the contest necessarily and where the breaking point is for you to stay in hiding. It think that would be valuable.
And also..I think you can retreat, you just take a temporary offense bonus.
What it sounds like though is in general the stealth checks seem a bit rough, but as I recall, stealthing IN combat was always very very hard, where stealthing out of combat was quite a bit easier in PvP. My presumption is this.
Your at 1200 ranks, they are at 1000
You attack, that sets you to in combat, he now has a perception bonus against you because he is facing you
That bonus is enough to put him in the range at you are failing stealth checks. So maybe its not really a snipe related issue but a general stealth related issue with facing. I presumed he did not use the WATCH command because that would be way to harsh. WATCH should just be removed.
GORTEOUS
Re: Verdict on Snipe?
01/31/2013 12:21 PM CST
I think they're just saying they want it to be useful, Rewyn. Not that they want it to be the standard bearer for ranged combat.
IMO, stealth and its application in combat needs to be re-thought. It seems like it's the most broken ability(for better or worse) from the 2.0 -> 3.0 transition and doesn't fit the new model very well. Just my opinion FWIW.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
IMO, stealth and its application in combat needs to be re-thought. It seems like it's the most broken ability(for better or worse) from the 2.0 -> 3.0 transition and doesn't fit the new model very well. Just my opinion FWIW.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
VEE-REX
Re: Verdict on Snipe?
01/31/2013 12:42 PM CST
>>In 2.0 ranged was as powerful (blow to blow) if not far more so than melee.
An understatement. In 2.0 ranged outperformed everything else by a mile.
>>If using snipe which provides an accuracy bonus, fully negates the ability to hide... I think that's a bit excessive in the current combat ecosphere.
If Snipe works anything like it does in 2.0, then it is difficult to successfully snipe without being seen. I don't recall it giving an accuracy/to-hit bonus because its main strength was to keep the sniper in hiding (assuming it was a successful snipe).
However, it's looking like Snipe is causing the hits to be inferior vs. fire, which indicates something may be wrong with it on that end.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
An understatement. In 2.0 ranged outperformed everything else by a mile.
>>If using snipe which provides an accuracy bonus, fully negates the ability to hide... I think that's a bit excessive in the current combat ecosphere.
If Snipe works anything like it does in 2.0, then it is difficult to successfully snipe without being seen. I don't recall it giving an accuracy/to-hit bonus because its main strength was to keep the sniper in hiding (assuming it was a successful snipe).
However, it's looking like Snipe is causing the hits to be inferior vs. fire, which indicates something may be wrong with it on that end.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
TSANGL
Re: Verdict on Snipe?
01/31/2013 01:01 PM CST
No worries - just wanted to make sure what I was saying wasn't miscommunicated.
If I don't attack, I can hide and unhide unseen all day long.
Again, the 3.0 changes are good and I can see the benefits of re-balancing... but I just think in it's current state, snipe is useless. If it's a bug, great... if not, then I definitely think there's a concept review that needs to happen.
In using snipe, I'm basically nerfing myself to hide... which is kind of the whole point of sniping in the first place.
It's pretty consistent, even with others that are lower in perception - both in direct combat, and just in the room.
If I don't attack, I can hide and unhide unseen all day long.
Again, the 3.0 changes are good and I can see the benefits of re-balancing... but I just think in it's current state, snipe is useless. If it's a bug, great... if not, then I definitely think there's a concept review that needs to happen.
In using snipe, I'm basically nerfing myself to hide... which is kind of the whole point of sniping in the first place.
It's pretty consistent, even with others that are lower in perception - both in direct combat, and just in the room.
TILTINGVAGABOND
Re: Verdict on Snipe?
01/31/2013 01:50 PM CST
>>WATCH should just be removed.
^This for starters! The fact that it debuffs your perception against other people is not a penalty. How many times are you really fighting multiple opponents? I'm not the giant from Princess Bride.
>>I think you can retreat, you just take a temporary offense bonus.
It's a rather large penalty. I go from landing good or heavy hits to missing completely 4 or more shots in a row.
>> perception bonus against you because he is facing you
^this as well. With the way retreat and shields work now, you almost have to be at melee to do any damage with a bow. So it's not that you have one thing against you, you have 3! Melee + Snipe + Watch (if applicable).
And from my testing if you fail snipe, it's a HUGE penalty. You hit harder with a fire, than you do with a botched snipe. So if you aren't going to win the contest, don't even bother.
Poach, on the other hand, seems to be working, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was more of a damage bonus in there than Kodius makes it out to be. I get 11's and 12's with fires where I get 13's through 15's with poach.
I also think that the arm-worn shield is a bigger penalty that people realize to offense, and although I can't appraise it, the stealth hinderance of a tanned buckler seems to be fairly brutal I go from Light hindered to insignif when I take it of.
Let me run a quick test of something.
Player of Diggan, Ranger & Halfing of Aesry
^This for starters! The fact that it debuffs your perception against other people is not a penalty. How many times are you really fighting multiple opponents? I'm not the giant from Princess Bride.
>>I think you can retreat, you just take a temporary offense bonus.
It's a rather large penalty. I go from landing good or heavy hits to missing completely 4 or more shots in a row.
>> perception bonus against you because he is facing you
^this as well. With the way retreat and shields work now, you almost have to be at melee to do any damage with a bow. So it's not that you have one thing against you, you have 3! Melee + Snipe + Watch (if applicable).
And from my testing if you fail snipe, it's a HUGE penalty. You hit harder with a fire, than you do with a botched snipe. So if you aren't going to win the contest, don't even bother.
Poach, on the other hand, seems to be working, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was more of a damage bonus in there than Kodius makes it out to be. I get 11's and 12's with fires where I get 13's through 15's with poach.
I also think that the arm-worn shield is a bigger penalty that people realize to offense, and although I can't appraise it, the stealth hinderance of a tanned buckler seems to be fairly brutal I go from Light hindered to insignif when I take it of.
Let me run a quick test of something.
Player of Diggan, Ranger & Halfing of Aesry
TILTINGVAGABOND
Re: Verdict on Snipe?
01/31/2013 02:08 PM CST
Okay, I'm going to have to work up a script to test this, but I did a quick 25 shots test of 4 things: FIRE, POACH, SNIPE(FAIL), SNIPE(SUCCESS)
I just recorded the damage of the first hit, always at melee, solidly balance with slight advantage (don't ask me why slight, it was just easier). I was wearing a tanned croc buckler on my arm.
Hunter's Shortbow made of silverwood (Well/Reasonable). 421 in Bow, Str:35, Agi:55, Ref:54, against Dobeks
Completely beneath my notice, would train somewhat poorly, about as strong, less agil, quite a bit less disc, rather less quick, definitely less conditioned.
I don't know how to do all the fancy math stuff, but here's what I got. If I missed, I counted toward the TO HIT average, but not the damage
FIRE:
TO HIT - 88%
DAMAGE - 10.6
POACH:
TO HIT - 96%
DAMAGE - 10.6
SNIPE(FAIL):
TO HIT - 92%
DAMAGE - 10.2
SNIPE(SUCCESS)
TO HIT - 96%
DAMAGE - 11.4
So with this limited test, it looks like I might be eating a little crow. It's not really snipe's to hit or damage that's broken. I think it's the stealth v. perception contest.
With SCOUT AWARE, I get the response I could evade their untrained eyes (whatever that means). I have 481 in stealth, which has a +15% on my bow. The fact that I can fail a snipe contest at all against a dobek is beyond me, but it wasn't that hard to get 25 data points.
I think what most of us might be experiencing is the snipe fail scenario, because so much is stacked against that contest: Melee, Shield, Armor, Combat, Watch (if applicable) that we're failing the snipe and therefore, would be better of with poach (or fire).
I might set up a script to run a much bigger test, but RL is being a pain. Maybe one of the things that could be done is to take a look at the stealth vs. perception checks across all contents: stalk, sneak, load, prep, aim, poach, snipe, slip, etc.
I'm pretty sure those haven't been looked at in a long time.
Player of Diggan, Ranger & Halfing of Aesry
I just recorded the damage of the first hit, always at melee, solidly balance with slight advantage (don't ask me why slight, it was just easier). I was wearing a tanned croc buckler on my arm.
Hunter's Shortbow made of silverwood (Well/Reasonable). 421 in Bow, Str:35, Agi:55, Ref:54, against Dobeks
Completely beneath my notice, would train somewhat poorly, about as strong, less agil, quite a bit less disc, rather less quick, definitely less conditioned.
I don't know how to do all the fancy math stuff, but here's what I got. If I missed, I counted toward the TO HIT average, but not the damage
FIRE:
TO HIT - 88%
DAMAGE - 10.6
POACH:
TO HIT - 96%
DAMAGE - 10.6
SNIPE(FAIL):
TO HIT - 92%
DAMAGE - 10.2
SNIPE(SUCCESS)
TO HIT - 96%
DAMAGE - 11.4
So with this limited test, it looks like I might be eating a little crow. It's not really snipe's to hit or damage that's broken. I think it's the stealth v. perception contest.
With SCOUT AWARE, I get the response I could evade their untrained eyes (whatever that means). I have 481 in stealth, which has a +15% on my bow. The fact that I can fail a snipe contest at all against a dobek is beyond me, but it wasn't that hard to get 25 data points.
I think what most of us might be experiencing is the snipe fail scenario, because so much is stacked against that contest: Melee, Shield, Armor, Combat, Watch (if applicable) that we're failing the snipe and therefore, would be better of with poach (or fire).
I might set up a script to run a much bigger test, but RL is being a pain. Maybe one of the things that could be done is to take a look at the stealth vs. perception checks across all contents: stalk, sneak, load, prep, aim, poach, snipe, slip, etc.
I'm pretty sure those haven't been looked at in a long time.
Player of Diggan, Ranger & Halfing of Aesry
