Okay professional forgers, etc., I was looking to get a few random questions I've had for a long while answered if someone can..
1. My understanding (archaic though it is), is that if a weapon is better suited than it is balanced then Strength is utilized as a damage modifier, whereas if it is better balanced than it is suited, Agility is used as the damage modifier... Is this more or less correct?
2. Assuming #1 is generally correct, what happens if a weapon is suited the same as it is balanced? Will the game engine automatically pick whatever modifier would be better for your character? Or are there minute degrees of balance and suitedness that would make even a weapon that appears the same to actually be one or the other?
3. If a weapon automatically picks the better modifier, then I can just get a f/f 26 stone mace, but if #2 has Minute calculations, anyone have a suggestion for a MB user that will always have agility that far outpaces his Strength?
Apologies if these are simple questions - I'm on my phone and don't have access to the forums in a fashion that would allow me to peruse without it taking forever.
Thanks in advance!
PHIL-SMITH
NJP
Re: Balanced MBs
11/18/2010 10:47 AM CST
>>1. My understanding (archaic though it is), is that if a weapon is better suited than it is balanced then Strength is utilized as a damage modifier, whereas if it is better balanced than it is suited, Agility is used as the damage modifier... Is this more or less correct?
Strength & Suitedness are always used as a damage modifier. Agility & Balance are not, strictly speaking, damage modifiers, they apply to the accuracy of the attack. This means that the more balanced a weapon is, the easier it will be for it to land a blow. How much your attack exceeded what was strictly needed to hit at all, is presently another damage modifier. This makes it so that Agility essentially double-dips on the calcs, being an accuracy and an indirect damage modifier. This combined with the impact of weapon balance on parrying, among other things, makes Agility the clear king of desirable stats for mundane weapon offense under the present system.
>>2. Assuming #1 is generally correct, what happens if a weapon is suited the same as it is balanced? Will the game engine automatically pick whatever modifier would be better for your character? Or are there minute degrees of balance and suitedness that would make even a weapon that appears the same to actually be one or the other?
My previous explanation covers the first part of this. As far as the latter goes, appraisal values are ranges. So there can be minor subtleties in balance/suitedness for a particular weapon, even if both stats appraise the same.
>>3. If a weapon automatically picks the better modifier, then I can just get a f/f 26 stone mace, but if #2 has Minute calculations, anyone have a suggestion for a MB user that will always have agility that far outpaces his Strength?
It's the same whether you have better Strength or Agility under the present system (unfortunately): always choose the best balanced weapon you can get your hands on. Higher levels of strength suitedness are a nice bonus, but Agility uber alles.
Ogdaro
"Take chances and see what you can get away with, it only costs you a favor or two if you mess up." -Issus
Strength & Suitedness are always used as a damage modifier. Agility & Balance are not, strictly speaking, damage modifiers, they apply to the accuracy of the attack. This means that the more balanced a weapon is, the easier it will be for it to land a blow. How much your attack exceeded what was strictly needed to hit at all, is presently another damage modifier. This makes it so that Agility essentially double-dips on the calcs, being an accuracy and an indirect damage modifier. This combined with the impact of weapon balance on parrying, among other things, makes Agility the clear king of desirable stats for mundane weapon offense under the present system.
>>2. Assuming #1 is generally correct, what happens if a weapon is suited the same as it is balanced? Will the game engine automatically pick whatever modifier would be better for your character? Or are there minute degrees of balance and suitedness that would make even a weapon that appears the same to actually be one or the other?
My previous explanation covers the first part of this. As far as the latter goes, appraisal values are ranges. So there can be minor subtleties in balance/suitedness for a particular weapon, even if both stats appraise the same.
>>3. If a weapon automatically picks the better modifier, then I can just get a f/f 26 stone mace, but if #2 has Minute calculations, anyone have a suggestion for a MB user that will always have agility that far outpaces his Strength?
It's the same whether you have better Strength or Agility under the present system (unfortunately): always choose the best balanced weapon you can get your hands on. Higher levels of strength suitedness are a nice bonus, but Agility uber alles.
Ogdaro
"Take chances and see what you can get away with, it only costs you a favor or two if you mess up." -Issus
PHIL-SMITH
Re: Balanced MBs
11/18/2010 10:55 AM CST
Thank you for the quick and thorough reply Ogdaro, now I understand much better what it is that I'm looking for in my weapons!
Cheers!
Cheers!
BEVERAGEK
Re: Balanced MBs
11/18/2010 11:00 AM CST
>>...always choose the best balanced weapon you can get your hands on. Higher levels of strength suitedness are a nice bonus, but Agility uber alles.
I have not experienced this. I have 30 more Agility than I do in Strength and my katar kicks the crap out of every other light edge weapon I've ever used, and it is at the lowest end of dismal balance.
__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
I have not experienced this. I have 30 more Agility than I do in Strength and my katar kicks the crap out of every other light edge weapon I've ever used, and it is at the lowest end of dismal balance.
__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
NJP
Re: Balanced MBs
11/18/2010 11:20 AM CST
>>I have not experienced this. I have 30 more Agility than I do in Strength and my katar kicks the crap out of every other light edge weapon I've ever used, and it is at the lowest end of dismal balance.
That's something fairly unique to the LE paradigm, in my experience. It's mostly because other LE weapons don't compare on the same level with the stats of a forged katar at all. The same doesn't hold true across other weapons.
For example, my claymore with superb (11) suitedness and terrible (1) balance, even though it has mighty (17) slice and severe (13) impact, simply can't outperform my bastard sword with reasonable (7) balance, even though it only has very severe (14) slice and somewhat moderate (6) impact. When the claymore does connect, it can hit like a ton of bricks and causes a lot more knockdowns, but the bastie will connect every time, which cannot be said about the claymore.
This is with the same in Strength and Agility (50 in each). Perhaps if I had 80 or 90 agility and the same 50 strength, the claymore might come into its own, but only because the Agility would be making up for the horrendously bad balance enough for the higher suitedness to actually matter.
Ogdaro
"Take chances and see what you can get away with, it only costs you a favor or two if you mess up." -Issus
That's something fairly unique to the LE paradigm, in my experience. It's mostly because other LE weapons don't compare on the same level with the stats of a forged katar at all. The same doesn't hold true across other weapons.
For example, my claymore with superb (11) suitedness and terrible (1) balance, even though it has mighty (17) slice and severe (13) impact, simply can't outperform my bastard sword with reasonable (7) balance, even though it only has very severe (14) slice and somewhat moderate (6) impact. When the claymore does connect, it can hit like a ton of bricks and causes a lot more knockdowns, but the bastie will connect every time, which cannot be said about the claymore.
This is with the same in Strength and Agility (50 in each). Perhaps if I had 80 or 90 agility and the same 50 strength, the claymore might come into its own, but only because the Agility would be making up for the horrendously bad balance enough for the higher suitedness to actually matter.
Ogdaro
"Take chances and see what you can get away with, it only costs you a favor or two if you mess up." -Issus
FALLENSHADOWS
Re: Balanced MBs
11/18/2010 01:24 PM CST
>>For example, my claymore with superb (11) suitedness and terrible (1) balance, even though it has mighty (17) slice and severe (13) impact, simply can't outperform my bastard sword with reasonable (7) balance, even though it only has very severe (14) slice and somewhat moderate (6) impact. When the claymore does connect, it can hit like a ton of bricks and causes a lot more knockdowns, but the bastie will connect every time, which cannot be said about the claymore.
In this example, it has to do with the fact that basties have pretty good suitability as well.
Its a little more complicated than what has been posted here. I'm not the expert on this but as far as I know this is how it goes.
Weapon balance affects to hit and is modified by agility. If your exceed the average hit range of your target you'll do extra damage from bonus damage, if you are just able to hit your target you'll still hit but actually get a damage reduction.
Weapon suitability affects damage and is modified by strength and the weight of the weapon. This can provide a larger bonus to damage than balance and agility however it requires a very heavy weapon to utilize it.
In the example of a bastard sword vs a claymore in order for a claymore to start being better than a bastard sword it requires a weight high enough that at that point its better to use a greatsword template. This is helped by the fact a bastard sword has good suitability as well as good balance.
In the example of Katar vs other light edges; most light edges have a very low suitability, while having very good balance. The katar is the inverse of this having very low balance and pretty good suitability. This by itself isn't all that involves in making katars better, they also have much more weight attached to them. Remember suitability is also reliable on the weight of the weapon so the heaviness of the katar actually amplifies the suitability.
That is my understanding of what happens anyways.
_______________________
As good almost kill a man as kill a good book; who kills a man kills a reasonable creature, God's image; but he who destroys a good book, kills reason itself, kills the image of God, as it were in the eye.
-John Milton
In this example, it has to do with the fact that basties have pretty good suitability as well.
Its a little more complicated than what has been posted here. I'm not the expert on this but as far as I know this is how it goes.
Weapon balance affects to hit and is modified by agility. If your exceed the average hit range of your target you'll do extra damage from bonus damage, if you are just able to hit your target you'll still hit but actually get a damage reduction.
Weapon suitability affects damage and is modified by strength and the weight of the weapon. This can provide a larger bonus to damage than balance and agility however it requires a very heavy weapon to utilize it.
In the example of a bastard sword vs a claymore in order for a claymore to start being better than a bastard sword it requires a weight high enough that at that point its better to use a greatsword template. This is helped by the fact a bastard sword has good suitability as well as good balance.
In the example of Katar vs other light edges; most light edges have a very low suitability, while having very good balance. The katar is the inverse of this having very low balance and pretty good suitability. This by itself isn't all that involves in making katars better, they also have much more weight attached to them. Remember suitability is also reliable on the weight of the weapon so the heaviness of the katar actually amplifies the suitability.
That is my understanding of what happens anyways.
_______________________
As good almost kill a man as kill a good book; who kills a man kills a reasonable creature, God's image; but he who destroys a good book, kills reason itself, kills the image of God, as it were in the eye.
-John Milton
BEVERAGEK
Re: Balanced MBs
11/18/2010 02:39 PM CST
So what you're saying is I'd be better off lugging around a 60 stone katar?
I don't know how the forging system works, but would something like this be possible? If so I'm all over that.
__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
I don't know how the forging system works, but would something like this be possible? If so I'm all over that.
__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Balanced MBs
11/18/2010 02:43 PM CST
>>Remember suitability is also reliable on the weight of the weapon so the heaviness of the katar actually amplifies the suitability.
You sure this is true? If it was you could artificially increase the weight and it would perform better.
Vote DR as TOP MUD: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-cemm.html
You sure this is true? If it was you could artificially increase the weight and it would perform better.
Vote DR as TOP MUD: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-cemm.html
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Balanced MBs
11/18/2010 02:46 PM CST
>>I don't know how the forging system works, but would something like this be possible? If so I'm all over that.
Yes it's possible but I'm not sure it would do anything extra except tire you out more.
Vote DR as TOP MUD: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-cemm.html
Yes it's possible but I'm not sure it would do anything extra except tire you out more.
Vote DR as TOP MUD: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-cemm.html
FUTILITY
Re: Balanced MBs
11/18/2010 08:09 PM CST
>>You sure this is true? If it was you could artificially increase the weight and it would perform better.
There's a hidden "force of impact" stat but there's no indication whatsoever it's tied to weapon weight more than any other stat.
The real reason you're going to hit harder with a bastard sword is because you're not losing part of your damage because the hit was partial or on the low end of success, thanks to its suitability.
There's a hidden "force of impact" stat but there's no indication whatsoever it's tied to weapon weight more than any other stat.
The real reason you're going to hit harder with a bastard sword is because you're not losing part of your damage because the hit was partial or on the low end of success, thanks to its suitability.
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Balanced MBs
11/19/2010 08:42 AM CST
>>There's a hidden "force of impact" stat but there's no indication whatsoever it's tied to weapon weight more than any other stat.
Yeah I would assume if it was tied to anything it would be weapon class based not weight.
Vote DR as TOP MUD: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-cemm.html
Yeah I would assume if it was tied to anything it would be weapon class based not weight.
Vote DR as TOP MUD: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-cemm.html
JMF90
Re: Balanced MBs
11/19/2010 12:47 PM CST
>I have not experienced this. I have 30 more Agility than I do in Strength and my katar kicks the crap out of every other light edge weapon I've ever used, and it is at the lowest end of dismal balance.
2 things.
1: The damage stats on a weapon matter. The katar with the slicer combo beats out other LEs in normal situations.
2: Weapons with extremely bad balance actually have a bonus to their balance. Case in point, you can forge a katar with 0 balance. You can still hit things with it.
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
2 things.
1: The damage stats on a weapon matter. The katar with the slicer combo beats out other LEs in normal situations.
2: Weapons with extremely bad balance actually have a bonus to their balance. Case in point, you can forge a katar with 0 balance. You can still hit things with it.
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
SUGARSNOUT
Re: Balanced MBs
11/19/2010 07:33 PM CST
>There's a hidden "force of impact" stat but there's no indication whatsoever it's tied to weapon weight more than any other stat.
A few years back people ran tests (if I'm remembering correctly) that disproved this. Unless someone can prove it exists, I'd place it in the same category as lavender and crystal skulls.
A few years back people ran tests (if I'm remembering correctly) that disproved this. Unless someone can prove it exists, I'd place it in the same category as lavender and crystal skulls.
ROCKYWILLIAMS1479
Re: Balanced MBs
11/19/2010 08:05 PM CST
It was posted by red names that in the new combat changes, there either will be a force of impact stat, or the one that exists will actually do something measurable.
DRPrime - Celeres Turrance
DRPrime - NecroUnknown
DRPrime - Celeres Turrance
DRPrime - NecroUnknown
FUTILITY
Re: Balanced MBs
11/19/2010 08:36 PM CST
>>A few years back people ran tests (if I'm remembering correctly) that disproved this. Unless someone can prove it exists, I'd place it in the same category as lavender and crystal skulls.
You're doing it wrong. Lavender has always been a bit of a joke, and crystal skulls have always seemed like placebo medicine. But force of impact is clearly there; bigger weapons hit harder regardless of stats. You can go forge the crappiest 2hb you can, and it will still hit harder than the best medium blunt you can manage.
You're doing it wrong. Lavender has always been a bit of a joke, and crystal skulls have always seemed like placebo medicine. But force of impact is clearly there; bigger weapons hit harder regardless of stats. You can go forge the crappiest 2hb you can, and it will still hit harder than the best medium blunt you can manage.
DWARFSTABBA
Re: Balanced MBs
11/19/2010 09:43 PM CST
>>A few years back people ran tests (if I'm remembering correctly) that disproved this. Unless someone can prove it exists, I'd place it in the same category as lavender and crystal skulls.
I dunno. The 'hidden' force of impact thing has always been extremely apparent to me. It's most noticeable between Medium Blunt and Heavy Blunt in my experience. With both MB and HBs around the 45-55 stone area, i've always noticed the difference when fighting critters that parry. The HB will knock weapons out of hands, damage them, and seems to have a lot more of the 'and knocking the <critter> off balance' messaging.
I can't recall specific examples at the moment, but I'm sure if someone really wanted they could find comparable weight/stat MB/HBs and test.
I dunno. The 'hidden' force of impact thing has always been extremely apparent to me. It's most noticeable between Medium Blunt and Heavy Blunt in my experience. With both MB and HBs around the 45-55 stone area, i've always noticed the difference when fighting critters that parry. The HB will knock weapons out of hands, damage them, and seems to have a lot more of the 'and knocking the <critter> off balance' messaging.
I can't recall specific examples at the moment, but I'm sure if someone really wanted they could find comparable weight/stat MB/HBs and test.
CARDINALE01
Re: Balanced MBs
11/20/2010 02:45 AM CST
Not to mention that recent red posts about combat 3.0 have refered to force of impact as a "new" stat, and then clarified that it's always been there but has been invisible to players and will now be visible.
Unless I'm remembering incorrectly. Couldn't find the actual post.
Unless I'm remembering incorrectly. Couldn't find the actual post.
NJP
Re: Balanced MBs
11/20/2010 03:02 AM CST
>>Not to mention that recent red posts about combat 3.0 have refered to force of impact as a "new" stat, and then clarified that it's always been there but has been invisible to players and will now be visible.
>>Unless I'm remembering incorrectly. Couldn't find the actual post.
I remember the exact same post. Couldn't find it now to save my life though.
Ogdaro
"Take chances and see what you can get away with, it only costs you a favor or two if you mess up." -Issus
>>Unless I'm remembering incorrectly. Couldn't find the actual post.
I remember the exact same post. Couldn't find it now to save my life though.
Ogdaro
"Take chances and see what you can get away with, it only costs you a favor or two if you mess up." -Issus
RAIST
Re: Balanced MBs
11/20/2010 03:52 AM CST
>WHERE WE ARE GOING:
>Stuns will be less frequent in general, although certain attack types (slam, pummel) will have an increased chance to stun among their pros. In addition, a "new" (old, but invisible) weapon stat (Force of Impact) will be used in conjunction with strength and suitability as the primary determining factor for the chance of stunning. In other words, weapons that are traditionally inaccurate and poor at parrying may very well have a higher chance to stun (although this is highly weapon dependent).
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Post:Combat_3.0_Overview_-_7/14/2010_-_22:28:18
"Your suffering amuses me" -GM Raesh
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Blunts for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
>Stuns will be less frequent in general, although certain attack types (slam, pummel) will have an increased chance to stun among their pros. In addition, a "new" (old, but invisible) weapon stat (Force of Impact) will be used in conjunction with strength and suitability as the primary determining factor for the chance of stunning. In other words, weapons that are traditionally inaccurate and poor at parrying may very well have a higher chance to stun (although this is highly weapon dependent).
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Post:Combat_3.0_Overview_-_7/14/2010_-_22:28:18
"Your suffering amuses me" -GM Raesh
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Blunts for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
SUGARSNOUT
