This post is just player feedback and is not directed at anyone else's responses.
I have played DragonRealms on and off since 1997/1998. I just came back within the last year after a 7 year absence. DragonRealms is like an old, first love, and I am grateful that it is still here after all these years.
There are many reasons why I love this game. One is the diversity of skills and no game-imposed cookie-cutter definition of how a character is defined.
Another reason is that I enjoy writing scripts. This is not so I can go watch a movie like other games (Black Desert Online) where AFK playing is encouraged, but more because I am getting older and my mouse arm isn't what it used to be.
Finally, I have always appreciated not only the roleplaying environment and keeping things in-character in game, but the enforcing of a certain level of civility in game and on the message boards. Conflict and PvP is acceptable, but on-going harassment and foul language is not.
Reasons that I have left in the past had nothing to do with disliking the game. Sometimes it was for financial reasons, but now they have free to play accounts. Sometimes it was because I got so overwhelmed with the constant grinding, but now they have rested experience (there is even a low cost option for FTP accounts).
However, the grinding was also personal choice...
At some pointed, I played a Barbarian (Vyraka, Account:GorbeshGoddess) that wanted to be skilled in all weapons, armor and survival skills. Part of this was character roleplay purposes, part of this was provoked by the game itself. I remember going on the quest Taisidon the first time (Tresante, Account: LadyScorpion). At the start of the quest, they took all your stuff and you had to fight with whatever weapon you could find. If you weren't skilled in the weapon, you were useless for a short period. And then there was that incredibly tall cliff which took forever and lots of help from teammates if you weren't good at climbing. So after that experience, I started to diversify my training.
What I learned by doing so is that my barbarian sweated TDPs, which made her stats much higher than someone who didn't train like her. To me this was an achievement. The reward for that achievement was having an edge on stat based contests.
Upon hearing about TDP changes, my feeling was dismay. My first thought was that I might not like playing DragonRealms anymore. I enjoy earning TPDs; that's a big reason why I play the game. It's not the only reason though - and I can remember -oh so many changes- throughout the years that people said would destroy the game, which it obviously hasn't.
I want to go back to the word achievement though. I - like many others - find having higher stats due to the hardwork of training and earning TDPs to be both very gratifying and an achievement. So you are going to change the way stats are earned...okay...but what are you going to do about the loss of that feeling of achievement?
Most other games have an *achievement system*. Some serve no real purpose at all other than being there; others offer rewards, like titles, etc.
Right now there are a plethora of titles in game, which typically are earned by skill or guild rank. However, personally, I don't find all of these titles to be on the same level of gratification as earning TDPs.
I have faith in the GMs, and I have no doubt in my mind that the discussion of TDP changes and Stats are being done for the greater good and longevity of the game.
My closing thoughts are that if you are going to drastically change a system that many people currently find to be gratifying, then you need to add another system to replace that sense of gratification. Naturally, you can't please everyone and some people just aren't going to be happy. But as you are making these changes, please keep in mind that some of us want to keep that feeling of achievement.
Thank you,
--Crowfeet--
CROWFEET
GRIFFINCLAW
Re: TDP Change Feedback
07/30/2019 01:05 PM CDT
I am in the same boat as you Crowfeet. I have been around since before the migration, played off and on, and now usually just dabble with a FTP account.
RP wise, skills should be just that, skills. If you swing a heavy axe around all day (and gain stat points, never mind the fact you could use the points for wisdom) you should increase your stats. But say now I also choose to swing a dagger around at a goblin, should I gain as much benefit from that as I did from swinging the axe? One would think at some point the stat gain from overlapping training would result in a reduced benefit.
There should be some way to gain stats which are high for your circle, as many also have higher skill than their circle mandates in many areas.
I too have faith in the GM's ability to balance choices to make the game viable.
I would think a key to making the game balance high end numbers would be making skills and stats more of a curve than a slope (are you 50% stronger, twice as skilled, ect).
I gave up circle chasing when the Outcasts departed, I just play for fun. I will never be a "top" player, but I would like to be able to play casually without the worry that my character is training to a dead end (anyone remember armor/evasion/shield re-balancing). As has always been the case with every game that is around for a long time things just need "readjusting".
I am sure the RP element of training everything if you wish will still be there, and training multiple weapons would still have purpose as it raises your mastery and your skill in that particular weapon, which at times can be useful, but the problem with the current system is if you don't start with the "train it all" mentality by the time you get high enough circle for the TDP's to matter it would be a horrible task to try to back train the skills to gain the TDP's needed to be competitive.
RP wise, skills should be just that, skills. If you swing a heavy axe around all day (and gain stat points, never mind the fact you could use the points for wisdom) you should increase your stats. But say now I also choose to swing a dagger around at a goblin, should I gain as much benefit from that as I did from swinging the axe? One would think at some point the stat gain from overlapping training would result in a reduced benefit.
There should be some way to gain stats which are high for your circle, as many also have higher skill than their circle mandates in many areas.
I too have faith in the GM's ability to balance choices to make the game viable.
I would think a key to making the game balance high end numbers would be making skills and stats more of a curve than a slope (are you 50% stronger, twice as skilled, ect).
I gave up circle chasing when the Outcasts departed, I just play for fun. I will never be a "top" player, but I would like to be able to play casually without the worry that my character is training to a dead end (anyone remember armor/evasion/shield re-balancing). As has always been the case with every game that is around for a long time things just need "readjusting".
I am sure the RP element of training everything if you wish will still be there, and training multiple weapons would still have purpose as it raises your mastery and your skill in that particular weapon, which at times can be useful, but the problem with the current system is if you don't start with the "train it all" mentality by the time you get high enough circle for the TDP's to matter it would be a horrible task to try to back train the skills to gain the TDP's needed to be competitive.
ROOTZONE
Re: TDP Change Feedback
07/31/2019 01:24 AM CDT
I just don't get the premise that grinding and training all skills is a concerning dynamic in this game. Firstly, what skills are people training that they don't "need" to train? We talking about weapons? I can kinda get that because there are 15 different weapon types. But weapons are one of the funnest things to train and learn. I was training most weapons before even realizing the TDP benefits. If we're talking about survival, nearly every one of those skills matter. Everyone is expected to train all magic skills with really the only optional skill being sorcery. But that also is an excellent and fun skill to train, giving you the ability to use scroll spells and compliment your current needs, whether its RP or combat.
Is training all armor skills a problem? There's shield, defending, all 4 armor types. Players should only pick 1? All lore skills? I'm guessing every guild has an average of about 49-51 skills with nearly 90% of them being important and arguably essential. So are we saying there is a problem with people training the remaining 10% of skills?
The TDP system makes a lot of sense. It is realistic. In RL you cross-train with other sports to improve your primary sport. In Karate Kid (y'all seen Cobra Kai? OMG!) you improve your martial arts techniques by meditation and waxing cars. Training all skills makes sense to have some sort of added benefit and the current TDP system seems to be the only real way to accommodate that. The real problem right now is NOT balancing guilds or players, it's creating things to make the game more engaging. I was always one to run to the front lines in invasions and RP the hell out of it, but i'm so HLC i feel guilty going and kill everything without a challenge. I still go, but invasions are like token events now that most people don't seem to pay any attention to.
I like a lot of the other development projects that have been proposed. I'd hate to see energy taken from those things to mess with decent (in my eyes perfect) TDP system.
PS. I'll just say this game is amazing. So much detail, so in depth. I can't even imagine the commitment, creativity, and love needed to manage all of this. So good work everyone, always going to support y'all.
Is training all armor skills a problem? There's shield, defending, all 4 armor types. Players should only pick 1? All lore skills? I'm guessing every guild has an average of about 49-51 skills with nearly 90% of them being important and arguably essential. So are we saying there is a problem with people training the remaining 10% of skills?
The TDP system makes a lot of sense. It is realistic. In RL you cross-train with other sports to improve your primary sport. In Karate Kid (y'all seen Cobra Kai? OMG!) you improve your martial arts techniques by meditation and waxing cars. Training all skills makes sense to have some sort of added benefit and the current TDP system seems to be the only real way to accommodate that. The real problem right now is NOT balancing guilds or players, it's creating things to make the game more engaging. I was always one to run to the front lines in invasions and RP the hell out of it, but i'm so HLC i feel guilty going and kill everything without a challenge. I still go, but invasions are like token events now that most people don't seem to pay any attention to.
I like a lot of the other development projects that have been proposed. I'd hate to see energy taken from those things to mess with decent (in my eyes perfect) TDP system.
PS. I'll just say this game is amazing. So much detail, so in depth. I can't even imagine the commitment, creativity, and love needed to manage all of this. So good work everyone, always going to support y'all.
SHIFT3
Re: TDP Change Feedback
07/31/2019 11:56 AM CDT
> I'm guessing every guild has an average of about 49-51 skills with nearly 90%
Let's do this exercise. What's essential or at least highly important. We'll assume primes and remove guild skills which are box checks.
(7) Weapon types? Parry, one ranged, one blunt, one edged, and masteries. Maybe you could argue for 1 light stabber if you need balance.
(7) Magic? PM, Util/Aug/Debil/TM/Warding depending on guild. Let's include arcana now that enchanting is out.
(3) Armor? Defending, Shield, one armor type.
(2) Lores? Most guilds: nothing. Let's assume you don't have access to elanthipedia and need appraisal, and let's include tactics because it's nice to have.
(6) Survival? Evasion, athletics, first aid to 300, stealth if not survival tert, perception, and one of locks or skinning.
+1 for guild skill, which again won't be true for most guilds, but let's include it to be nice.
At best, being exceptionally generous, you're looking at 26 / 52 skills. That's 50%. 50% of the skills in the game is essential or nice to have for your average character. Obviously your sorcery maniac needs sorcery, your blacksmith forging, but it's not essential to the average character's game play. The rest are being used to pad stats.
CUTHALION
Re: TDP Change Feedback
08/02/2019 02:41 PM CDT
I think the bottom line issue I have with the TDP system is that it presents me with two options and I find both of them distasteful:
Option 1: Create an optimal character by grinding every possible skill.
Option 2: Train a smaller set of skills but accept that my character will always be significantly weaker.
This is a terrible choice to offer players, especially considering the enormous mind-numbing grind involved in training a DR character.
People can say "you don't need to train an optimal character", but that's what most people are looking for in a long-term grinding game. The method for doing it should be more reasonable than it currently is, and the system for raising stats plays a large part in that.
On a mechanical level I find it very unsatisfying to train a group of skills I care nothing about in order to get a mechanical advantage in a completely unrelated system. That disconnect between action and purpose makes training feel unfulfilling.
On the other hand, we have to acknowledge that a significant portion of the core player-base has spent years training under this paradigm. It's not a small thing to pull the rug out from under them considering all the time spent training all of those skills.
On the other hand, I would personally be a lot happier with DR going forward if this change went into effect.
Option 1: Create an optimal character by grinding every possible skill.
Option 2: Train a smaller set of skills but accept that my character will always be significantly weaker.
This is a terrible choice to offer players, especially considering the enormous mind-numbing grind involved in training a DR character.
People can say "you don't need to train an optimal character", but that's what most people are looking for in a long-term grinding game. The method for doing it should be more reasonable than it currently is, and the system for raising stats plays a large part in that.
On a mechanical level I find it very unsatisfying to train a group of skills I care nothing about in order to get a mechanical advantage in a completely unrelated system. That disconnect between action and purpose makes training feel unfulfilling.
On the other hand, we have to acknowledge that a significant portion of the core player-base has spent years training under this paradigm. It's not a small thing to pull the rug out from under them considering all the time spent training all of those skills.
On the other hand, I would personally be a lot happier with DR going forward if this change went into effect.
JKILBY
Re: TDP Change Feedback
08/17/2019 11:36 AM CDT
>Option 1: Create an optimal character by grinding every possible skill.
>Option 2: Train a smaller set of skills but accept that my character will always be significantly weaker.
This is so true, and it's what I feel the majority of players see as well, it's why anymore most people are very very very cookie-cutter. Back in the day characters were far more unique in how they trained. You'd have someone that was good with bows, another that was good with 2HE and HT, etc etc. These days everyone trains everything. We're all the same except for our spells/abilities, the TDP system is broken, I wish a knew a good way to replace it but I don't. This is coming from someone that has multiple characters with 40,000+ ranks, and at least one that's mid 50k, I would trade all that time and work for a better system that promoted diversity instead of everyone training everything because of stats.
ELWYNN
Re: TDP Change Feedback
08/27/2019 07:10 PM CDT
I'm just curious if more thought has been put into changing the TDP farming system?
