I realize this might not be the best folder to post this is, but it seems like it's at least semi-applicable. The majority of my reasoning for posting here is I don't want to throw petrol onto an already blazing pyre of 'GM's hate us' and 'This is stupid' posts. I really have minimal feedback of that nature. In fact, I think it's a great change and I'm looking forward to the addition and implication.
Sure, that means if I want my lethal spells to stay lethal I'll have to work and backtrain my TM. Considering (at least the way I count them) Rangers have 3 spells this applies to (Branch Break, Swarm, Plague of Scavengers) this really isn't going to be the death of Ranger magic as we know it. To me it really seems like we have a ton of Rangers (not sure about the Paladins, I don't go over to their forums unless I have to) crying about the sky falling when it really isn't. I wouldn't be opposed to seeing a grandfathering of ranks in TM, 1 rank a circle seems reasonable enough given we stop needing magic to circle at 10 ranks. On the same note I'm not going to cry a river if TM isn't grandfathered.
I guess by and large, I wanted to extend my thanks to Armifer for the work he's put into all of these changes, as well as Zeyurn, who I understand is a coding machine and already made a small hand full of spells to date. Awesome work gentlemen, I look forward to playing with the new spells and seeing just what they have to offer. Keep up the good work!
-Any jackass can fall off a barstool, a real man rides it to the ground.
IAMTHEWALRUS
JUASON
Re: TM for Magic Tert (Rangers and Paladins)
08/01/2007 03:21 AM CDT
>>Branch Break, Swarm, Plague of Scavengers
Some silver lining perhaps....
Armifer was open to removing the failure hitting yourself part of branch break. This seems pretty significant, since I've seen a circle 60 ranger with as much PM as my circle 60 WM fails and hit himself when using this! Not to mention it'd be hard to backtrain if you kept knocking yourself out heh.
From what I can tell, branch break lost some of its oomph following the last contested spell changes anyways. Moreso at the high end, and moreso when hunting creatures. But I don't know of anyone that uses it regularly to hunt (specifically because it doesn't train anything in the process). I can see it being a more powerful spell in the hands of a skilled Ranger. Especially once you rub a CJ and really lay on the hurt.
Swarm might not go full TM, and just lose any damage it causes with a possible bump in effectiveness. Sort of like how Ice patch probably won't go full TM, but lose its bleeders/neck breaking.
Does anyone even use PoS? Really? Making it full TM would seem like a bonus to the spell and maybe it could get fixed up a bit in the process.
I can appreciate the complaints people have with backtraining TM. But to me its like the secondary benefits vastly outweigh the annoyance of backtraining the skill.
The funny thing is how many magic primary guildmates feel as though Rangers/Paladins will become overpowered with these changes haha! Nah,,, it won't be so bad. Hopefully when this stuff all goes in (6 months+) everyone will be so busy playing with Lore releases that days consist of running out to lock up TM in between spending hours in the tannery, wood shop or whatever :P
http://www.drplat.com - The DragonRealms Platinum Community Website. Be sure to vote DragonRealms as your #1 MUD!
Some silver lining perhaps....
Armifer was open to removing the failure hitting yourself part of branch break. This seems pretty significant, since I've seen a circle 60 ranger with as much PM as my circle 60 WM fails and hit himself when using this! Not to mention it'd be hard to backtrain if you kept knocking yourself out heh.
From what I can tell, branch break lost some of its oomph following the last contested spell changes anyways. Moreso at the high end, and moreso when hunting creatures. But I don't know of anyone that uses it regularly to hunt (specifically because it doesn't train anything in the process). I can see it being a more powerful spell in the hands of a skilled Ranger. Especially once you rub a CJ and really lay on the hurt.
Swarm might not go full TM, and just lose any damage it causes with a possible bump in effectiveness. Sort of like how Ice patch probably won't go full TM, but lose its bleeders/neck breaking.
Does anyone even use PoS? Really? Making it full TM would seem like a bonus to the spell and maybe it could get fixed up a bit in the process.
I can appreciate the complaints people have with backtraining TM. But to me its like the secondary benefits vastly outweigh the annoyance of backtraining the skill.
The funny thing is how many magic primary guildmates feel as though Rangers/Paladins will become overpowered with these changes haha! Nah,,, it won't be so bad. Hopefully when this stuff all goes in (6 months+) everyone will be so busy playing with Lore releases that days consist of running out to lock up TM in between spending hours in the tannery, wood shop or whatever :P
http://www.drplat.com - The DragonRealms Platinum Community Website. Be sure to vote DragonRealms as your #1 MUD!
DELVER
Re: TM for Magic Tert (Rangers and Paladins)
08/01/2007 12:34 PM CDT
>Does anyone even use PoS? Really? Making it full TM would seem like a bonus to the spell and maybe it could get fixed up a bit in the process.
Yes Ren. I found it a fun spell to play with. It had a neat effect on (dead) PC bodies too.
M
Yes Ren. I found it a fun spell to play with. It had a neat effect on (dead) PC bodies too.
M
IAMTHEWALRUS
Re: TM for Magic Tert (Rangers and Paladins)
08/01/2007 01:25 PM CDT
>>The funny thing is how many magic primary guildmates feel as though Rangers/Paladins will become overpowered with these changes haha! Nah,,, it won't be so bad.<<
I agree entirely, by and large in my opinion I really don't see how the change is going to overpower or nerf anything. Well, perhaps the potential to 'one shot' another player with a mediocre cast of branch break would fall in the nerf folder. Frankly Branch break has always been more effective on other players than creatures. I've never held with the notion that a mid 60's Ranger with moderate ranks in PM can drop another player 10 circles higher, while a magic primary with substantial ranks in TM can't. Obvious variables apply, such as chain lightning for example, but even that proves tepid in comparison to it's former days of dropping anyone just walking though the room without a discharged ES.
>>Armifer was open to removing the failure hitting yourself part of branch break. This seems pretty significant, since I've seen a circle 60 ranger with as much PM as my circle 60 WM fails and hit himself when using this!<<
I've seen and participated in dropping a tree or rock on myself before, and from what I've noticed it only tends to happen when you're putting an insufficient amount of mana into the spell vs what you're casting it at. i.e. casting a mid-20 prep at a blade spider while you're circle 40 (yeah I'm not very bright) The 'critical failure' of dropping the tree on yourself being removed sounds fine to me, although again, unless there is some snake eyes type of random luck factor to the spell, it shouldn't happen if you use it with caution. Or at least, I haven't had it happen since I stopped trying to goof around with it against critters well above my hunting level.
>>Swarm might not go full TM, and just lose any damage it causes with a possible bump in effectiveness. Sort of like how Ice patch probably won't go full TM, but lose its bleeders/neck breaking.<<
Call me a hopeless optimistic but I was pulling for Haraweps Bonds being excluded from the TM push. Since Armifer said it was going to primarily encompass lethal spells I was rather hoping to see a removal of the poison effect and have it work in a similar fashion to Ice patch in a unbalancing/subduing capacity. Hands down it's the most (and by a wide margin) used of my offensive spells when I'm hunting or training.
>>Does anyone even use PoS? Really?<<
PoS is really an amazing spell in how it works and what it does, but because of the significant gaps and severe remoteness of the critters it'll actually work on, it's become somewhat lack luster. There seems to be lower level than higher hunting targets. Lesser slugh, reavers, ghouls, zombies, grendles, etc. It works on Kart's in the Leth manor which is handy for when/if you decide to training escaping and gremishdin right outside the manor if and or when you're big into training there. However apart from those two (which are rather remote in and of themselves) there isn't much besides Wir Diengo (invasion and Sorrow's Point, also Aesry's cemetery) and Zombie Nomads (out in Muspar'i). Two things that I?ve personally never heard anyone say there were avidly hunting to train or for coin. No Ranger I know of spends copious amounts of time in Muspar'i, not that I blame them, and the Aesry and invasion instances of Wir hunting are city/neutral which Ranger's avoid like the plague obviously. If it worked on Adan'f I'd be quite happy with the spell, being as they're cursed but not undead. It's a very temperamental spell in the aspect that you can use it on Scythwing larva but not the Scythwing moths. Go figure. The secondary aspect of raising life mana is far weaker in comparison to compost in both duration and amount of power it raises which is completely fine if you ask me, I always viewed it more of a perk than anything else anyhow. All that aside it is an extremely powerful spell, every bit comparable to Branch Break, just not nearly as versatile. A cast as low as 20 will induce an appreciable vit loss as well as internal torso bleeding. Two will easily drop a Gremishdin.
>>Making it full TM would seem like a bonus to the spell and maybe it could get fixed up a bit in the process<<
I think of all the current Ranger offensive spells this one (with exception to Branch Break) should definitely fall under TM. This spell is, at least in my opinion, every bit as deadly, if not more so than branch break, again the problem is its lack of versatility. However I'd love to see it get a solid shot in the arm. Or perhaps have swarm work in a similar fashion only external rather than internal. As it stands swarm would be my vote for least favorite offensive spell. Branch break at least knocks things over if not killing them outright, but swarm preped significantly higher than PLS only ends up doling out an occasional stun which is random at best, mild vit loss and never anything more than cuts and bruises since the hornets seem to be erratic in their attack point and don't focus an attack in one area more than twice it seems. When it becomes targeted then I could see it having potential if you can target specific body parts, otherwise it's not too much more than a mild distraction.
>>I can appreciate the complaints people have with backtraining TM. But to me its like the secondary benefits vastly outweigh the annoyance of backtraining the skill.<<
Again I agree with you, I can see why a lot of Ranger and Paladins are shaken by the prospect of 'our spells not working unless we spend countless hours back training a tert skill for 6 months just to get it up to scale' or somesuch banter, whatever it is they're saying. Really as far as I can see it's 3, 4 at the most possible spells that will be effected and even then it's not as if either guild has any kind of remotely harsh magic req. to circle. For rangers I recall it being 10PM and you never need another drop of magic ever again. I view it more as leveling the playing field for spells that are way too easy to kill another person with and giving rangers at least, what they've been asking for, a means to train TM.
-Ariwin
-Any jackass can fall off a barstool, a real man rides it to the ground.
I agree entirely, by and large in my opinion I really don't see how the change is going to overpower or nerf anything. Well, perhaps the potential to 'one shot' another player with a mediocre cast of branch break would fall in the nerf folder. Frankly Branch break has always been more effective on other players than creatures. I've never held with the notion that a mid 60's Ranger with moderate ranks in PM can drop another player 10 circles higher, while a magic primary with substantial ranks in TM can't. Obvious variables apply, such as chain lightning for example, but even that proves tepid in comparison to it's former days of dropping anyone just walking though the room without a discharged ES.
>>Armifer was open to removing the failure hitting yourself part of branch break. This seems pretty significant, since I've seen a circle 60 ranger with as much PM as my circle 60 WM fails and hit himself when using this!<<
I've seen and participated in dropping a tree or rock on myself before, and from what I've noticed it only tends to happen when you're putting an insufficient amount of mana into the spell vs what you're casting it at. i.e. casting a mid-20 prep at a blade spider while you're circle 40 (yeah I'm not very bright) The 'critical failure' of dropping the tree on yourself being removed sounds fine to me, although again, unless there is some snake eyes type of random luck factor to the spell, it shouldn't happen if you use it with caution. Or at least, I haven't had it happen since I stopped trying to goof around with it against critters well above my hunting level.
>>Swarm might not go full TM, and just lose any damage it causes with a possible bump in effectiveness. Sort of like how Ice patch probably won't go full TM, but lose its bleeders/neck breaking.<<
Call me a hopeless optimistic but I was pulling for Haraweps Bonds being excluded from the TM push. Since Armifer said it was going to primarily encompass lethal spells I was rather hoping to see a removal of the poison effect and have it work in a similar fashion to Ice patch in a unbalancing/subduing capacity. Hands down it's the most (and by a wide margin) used of my offensive spells when I'm hunting or training.
>>Does anyone even use PoS? Really?<<
PoS is really an amazing spell in how it works and what it does, but because of the significant gaps and severe remoteness of the critters it'll actually work on, it's become somewhat lack luster. There seems to be lower level than higher hunting targets. Lesser slugh, reavers, ghouls, zombies, grendles, etc. It works on Kart's in the Leth manor which is handy for when/if you decide to training escaping and gremishdin right outside the manor if and or when you're big into training there. However apart from those two (which are rather remote in and of themselves) there isn't much besides Wir Diengo (invasion and Sorrow's Point, also Aesry's cemetery) and Zombie Nomads (out in Muspar'i). Two things that I?ve personally never heard anyone say there were avidly hunting to train or for coin. No Ranger I know of spends copious amounts of time in Muspar'i, not that I blame them, and the Aesry and invasion instances of Wir hunting are city/neutral which Ranger's avoid like the plague obviously. If it worked on Adan'f I'd be quite happy with the spell, being as they're cursed but not undead. It's a very temperamental spell in the aspect that you can use it on Scythwing larva but not the Scythwing moths. Go figure. The secondary aspect of raising life mana is far weaker in comparison to compost in both duration and amount of power it raises which is completely fine if you ask me, I always viewed it more of a perk than anything else anyhow. All that aside it is an extremely powerful spell, every bit comparable to Branch Break, just not nearly as versatile. A cast as low as 20 will induce an appreciable vit loss as well as internal torso bleeding. Two will easily drop a Gremishdin.
>>Making it full TM would seem like a bonus to the spell and maybe it could get fixed up a bit in the process<<
I think of all the current Ranger offensive spells this one (with exception to Branch Break) should definitely fall under TM. This spell is, at least in my opinion, every bit as deadly, if not more so than branch break, again the problem is its lack of versatility. However I'd love to see it get a solid shot in the arm. Or perhaps have swarm work in a similar fashion only external rather than internal. As it stands swarm would be my vote for least favorite offensive spell. Branch break at least knocks things over if not killing them outright, but swarm preped significantly higher than PLS only ends up doling out an occasional stun which is random at best, mild vit loss and never anything more than cuts and bruises since the hornets seem to be erratic in their attack point and don't focus an attack in one area more than twice it seems. When it becomes targeted then I could see it having potential if you can target specific body parts, otherwise it's not too much more than a mild distraction.
>>I can appreciate the complaints people have with backtraining TM. But to me its like the secondary benefits vastly outweigh the annoyance of backtraining the skill.<<
Again I agree with you, I can see why a lot of Ranger and Paladins are shaken by the prospect of 'our spells not working unless we spend countless hours back training a tert skill for 6 months just to get it up to scale' or somesuch banter, whatever it is they're saying. Really as far as I can see it's 3, 4 at the most possible spells that will be effected and even then it's not as if either guild has any kind of remotely harsh magic req. to circle. For rangers I recall it being 10PM and you never need another drop of magic ever again. I view it more as leveling the playing field for spells that are way too easy to kill another person with and giving rangers at least, what they've been asking for, a means to train TM.
-Ariwin
-Any jackass can fall off a barstool, a real man rides it to the ground.
SORTIK
Re: TM for Magic Tert (Rangers and Paladins)
08/01/2007 02:20 PM CDT
Hope this was the big thing that had to happen before they did a spell wipe. Seems a key time to do it, with the release of a new book and a change to how some guilds do damage with spells.
JUASON
Re: TM for Magic Tert (Rangers and Paladins)
08/01/2007 03:46 PM CDT
Solomon had mentioned the possibility for the Chamber of Forgetfulness to make a return due to these many changes. Though I'm not sure on a timeframe or probability.
http://www.drplat.com - The DragonRealms Platinum Community Website. Be sure to vote DragonRealms as your #1 MUD!
http://www.drplat.com - The DragonRealms Platinum Community Website. Be sure to vote DragonRealms as your #1 MUD!
SCHULTZS3
Re: TM for Magic Tert (Rangers and Paladins)
08/02/2007 12:28 PM CDT
<<IAMTHEWALRUS regarding PLS and critters it works on>>
Forgot to mention the Promado Abandoned Cemetary in northern Zoluren has Wir Dinegos. I don't know what it is Rangerly-wise, but I'm CERTAIN that's not city, might be neutral, might be wilderness.
I also know a certain WM lately has seemed to be going after them with a vengeance.
PoKaeta
"Whatever, it's the end of the world. There's actually a Trader guild now. Bards are no longer useless. Empaths can finally stand up for themselves. We're all doomed."
- Vinjince
Forgot to mention the Promado Abandoned Cemetary in northern Zoluren has Wir Dinegos. I don't know what it is Rangerly-wise, but I'm CERTAIN that's not city, might be neutral, might be wilderness.
I also know a certain WM lately has seemed to be going after them with a vengeance.
PoKaeta
"Whatever, it's the end of the world. There's actually a Trader guild now. Bards are no longer useless. Empaths can finally stand up for themselves. We're all doomed."
- Vinjince
JULIAN
Re: TM for Magic Tert (Rangers and Paladins)
08/03/2007 01:41 PM CDT
>>Stuff about dinegos<<
The area is city. I led a group hunt up that way and the rangers were hurting hard by the end of it.
The area is city. I led a group hunt up that way and the rangers were hurting hard by the end of it.
YOJIBALINESE
Re: TM for Magic Tert (Rangers and Paladins)
08/05/2007 06:16 PM CDT
>Swarm might not go full TM, and just lose any damage it causes with a possible bump in effectiveness. Sort of like how Ice patch probably won't go full TM, but lose its bleeders/neck breaking.
Is it even possible for swarm to lose any more damage? If I cast it, what's it going to do, heal the target?
Is it even possible for swarm to lose any more damage? If I cast it, what's it going to do, heal the target?
DULCINIA
Re: TM for Magic Tert (Rangers and Paladins)
08/05/2007 09:51 PM CDT
That would be funny were it not so true.
~Dulcinia
Mvorn says, "I'm too nervous to talk around Dulcinia she's so dreamy"
~Dulcinia
Mvorn says, "I'm too nervous to talk around Dulcinia she's so dreamy"
CAROLINT
Re: TM for Magic Tert (Rangers and Paladins)
08/06/2007 11:16 AM CDT
Make it last longer and give the target a severe perception penalty. It might already have one, I wouldn't know because I never use it.
________
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
________
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
SOULBURNER
Re: TM for Magic Tert (Rangers and Paladins)
08/19/2007 11:38 PM CDT
Point blank, why has pallie and ranger magic even been included in this change?
thx,
Soulburner
thx,
Soulburner
IDONS-BUDDY
Re: TM for Magic Tert (Rangers and Paladins)
08/19/2007 11:41 PM CDT
>> Point blank, why has pallie and ranger magic even been included in this change?
http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=1&topic=1&message=2204
>> thx,
np dood
Rev. Reene
[Jenealle] "What do you call a four-foot Moon Mage runnin' from the Town Guard?"
[Jenealle] "A small medium at large."
http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=1&topic=1&message=2204
>> thx,
np dood
Rev. Reene
[Jenealle] "What do you call a four-foot Moon Mage runnin' from the Town Guard?"
[Jenealle] "A small medium at large."
SOULBURNER
Re: TM for Magic Tert (Rangers and Paladins)
08/20/2007 12:19 AM CDT
Where was your answer?
thx,
Soulburner
thx,
Soulburner
WEILM
Re: TM for Magic Tert (Rangers and Paladins)
08/20/2007 12:42 AM CDT
>>Where was your answer?
Click the link: http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=1&topic=1&message=2204
Scroll down, there is a whole Q&A on Paladin & Ranger magic.
~Kyn (Kynevon)
Info Page http://kynevon.info
Grimoire of Echoes: http://tinyurl.com/2ac987
Hunting Info: http://tinyurl.com/44jlt
Armor Info: http://tinyurl.com/2h5jcp
Click the link: http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=1&topic=1&message=2204
Scroll down, there is a whole Q&A on Paladin & Ranger magic.
~Kyn (Kynevon)
Info Page http://kynevon.info
Grimoire of Echoes: http://tinyurl.com/2ac987
Hunting Info: http://tinyurl.com/44jlt
Armor Info: http://tinyurl.com/2h5jcp
LOFTONM1
Re: TM for Magic Tert (Rangers and Paladins)
08/20/2007 04:18 PM CDT
>>Point blank, why has pallie and ranger magic even been included in this change?
To dumb it down further, because it's magic. It's not Khri, it's not PROTECT or LEAD or other inherent Paladinish ability, it's not BESEECH, or any of the other things that make a guild.
J'Lo, I'm a ranger.. I'd believe anything.....
The Manipulation List -- http://symphaena.com/index.html
To dumb it down further, because it's magic. It's not Khri, it's not PROTECT or LEAD or other inherent Paladinish ability, it's not BESEECH, or any of the other things that make a guild.
J'Lo, I'm a ranger.. I'd believe anything.....
The Manipulation List -- http://symphaena.com/index.html
SOULBURNER
Re: TM for Magic Tert (Rangers and Paladins)
08/21/2007 03:07 PM CDT
Getting more personal(me being a ranger), life magic isn't even listed here. Yet now it has been included in a decision that has never involved it before. This puts offensive magic back for these people back years for TM training without warrant. As I understand Pallies are in the same boat. I just like to know how this is fair to those that have put in years of magic training and are now pushed aside and told that it's to bad, but you have only have six months to make up for otherwise hard years of training? I'm all for a magic change, but there seem to be so many other options than to just throw aside some guilds for the benefit of others without exception. Being more elaborate with your planning first and foremost.
thank,
Souldburner
thank,
Souldburner
LOFTONM1
Re: TM for Magic Tert (Rangers and Paladins)
08/21/2007 03:48 PM CDT
The plan is to remove all lethal damage capability from the spells of these two guilds, apparently. This is the nod towards not training TM all this time. From that point on, entirely new guildspells that work on the TM model--and yes, unless you did in fact train TM you will now suck at these spells--will be released so that you can, in fact, train TM.
Of course, we still have at least another 4 months of waiting and deciding to get through, so it's entirely possible the above could be thrown out the window as well.
J'Lo, I'm a ranger.. I'd believe anything.....
The Manipulation List -- http://symphaena.com/index.html
Of course, we still have at least another 4 months of waiting and deciding to get through, so it's entirely possible the above could be thrown out the window as well.
J'Lo, I'm a ranger.. I'd believe anything.....
The Manipulation List -- http://symphaena.com/index.html
ZAIRIUS
Re: TM for Magic Tert (Rangers and Paladins)
08/21/2007 04:41 PM CDT
>I just like to know how this is fair to those that have put in years of magic training and are now pushed aside and told that it's to bad, but you have only have six months to make up for otherwise hard years of training?
The flipside being for years magic primes actually had to practice combat magic in combat to get better at it, while damage capability was just given out to non-primes for just circling.
The compromise reached was that debuffing was left stat-based. All combat magic being made TM based would have had far dire consequences.
The Prydaen word for Woman is Yif.
That explains a lot.
Lots more stuff coming 'Soon'!
http://www.zairius.com
Supreme Bunny Overlord Zairius
The flipside being for years magic primes actually had to practice combat magic in combat to get better at it, while damage capability was just given out to non-primes for just circling.
The compromise reached was that debuffing was left stat-based. All combat magic being made TM based would have had far dire consequences.
The Prydaen word for Woman is Yif.
That explains a lot.
Lots more stuff coming 'Soon'!
http://www.zairius.com
Supreme Bunny Overlord Zairius
FIRMAGE
Re: TM for Magic Tert (Rangers and Paladins)
08/21/2007 07:08 PM CDT
I play a war mage so these changes do not affect me near as much as the paladin, and ranger guilds. From what I have read so far they have not ruled out some sort of grandfathering of TM for both guilds. Personally I have no problem with them grandfathering in the ranks, provided TM becomes a circle requirement, and the grandfathering brings all the rangers and paladins up to the minimum ranks for their circle.
Wabo
Wabo
