I think as a matter of principle vertigo should be easier to land on targets than MB. 2 MBs can knock a person out for over a minute, totally incapable of defending themselves. Vertigo isn't nearly as powerful at its maximum effect.

Vertigo is also a NON DAMAGING spell, wheras even MB causes nerve damage, IP physical damage, BB physical damage, and FRB skin damage.

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http://www.drplat.com - The DragonRealms Platinum Community Website!!

I dont know if anyone has posted this. But Smite Foe does have a skill check. Armor skill and also the type of armor you use from lower class leather - Heavy plate will reduce the damage to different degrees. There is another paladin who is famous for his 1 hitters on people higher than him, when we tested me no spells up just my plain Heavy plate armor skill and my natural stats I just shrugged it off then I put on a Chain Shirt which I only have about 100 ranks in LC and the same prep almost 1 hit me with Overwhelming shot to the chest. Reason most people see it overpowered is because 1) Armor skill is not most peoples strength 2) Most people dont use Heavy plate but wear LC and leather and 3) Paladins have 3 spells that really buff Smite Foe up, courage, marshal order and heroic Strength this give us a good edge. That means its not just 1 spell coming into effect.


Rekon

It does. Its not a story its been tested, That was just one example from my tests. Dont like it oh well thats how it works, train some armor, strap on something not just wussy like Leather or chain and then do your own tests. It will just prove what I said.


Rekon

<<It does. Its not a story its been tested, That was just one example from my tests.>>

No, it doesn't.

<<Dont like it oh well thats how it works,>>

No, it isn't.

<<train some armor, strap on something not just wussy like Leather or chain and then do your own tests. It will just prove what I said.>>

All it would show is exactly what you showed: That armor mitigates damage. Real profound.


<<Oh and if your talking about Smite foe not hitting you? Then that wont happend. Smite Foe is a damage spell that never misses all it can do is be shrugged off if it passes your MR then the Stat vs Stat contest comes in for how much damage it builds then the Armor skill is checked to see how much you take. Im aware it works like this for most spells so my case is, there is a skill check. >>

Guess what? Armor does the same thing Vs. Burn, too! That's what armor does: It mitigates damage. That doesn't mean it's part of the actual spell contest. This isn't hard.

<<Stop crying, Strap on some sturdier armor and train your skill to stop the godlike Sf? Sounds clear enough? Im proof and other people out there that Sf is not as overpowered as alot of people make it out to be.>>

I guess it will really suck, then, after the nerf that's coming.

<<Yes it does.>>

No, it really doesn't.

<<Just because people lack common sence, to realise that in a skill based game there are skills to train to defend against a spell.>>

You don't seem to grasp that the armor skill is never coming into play in the spell contest. All it's doing is mitigating the damage. That's what armor does. The SvS check is determining the spell power. The spell then, like ANY other damage dealing attack, has a check against armor that mitigates a portion of the damage.

The armor skill itself plays aboslutely zero role in the contested equation - just like it plays zero role in the contest for Burn. It can help mitigate the damage from burn, but it does absolutely nothing to the actual spell contest itself.

The spell contest itself yields the "maximum potential" for a given cast of a contested spell.

The comparison of the attacks strength, charisma, stamina, discipline, and mana used Vs. the defender's strength and stamina yields some number that determines the potential damage any spell can cause.

At no point does armor - or any other skill - come into play.

The result of that armor determines how much damage can be done at the absolute most. It is then partially mitigated by armor and the remainder is transfered to the target.

It's the same mitigation step that any damage dealing attack goes through. There is no special equation for smite foe involving armor that isn't present for most damage dealing contested spells.

<<Burn does damage when it hits? Yeah so? Smite foe is a spell that cant miss. It seems you cant grasp that its not like halt or veritigo or MB. Sf has no stat vs stat to see if it hits or not.>>

Actually, it does. The messaging just doesn't say "miss". The messaging is also 100% irrelevant. Mental blast can't "miss" either, but it still has complete failure based on the Vs. will check. Burn or Branch Break missing is the exact same thing as mental blast being fully resisted - the only difference is that the text says "miss" instead of "resisted". This is purely aesthetic.

SvS spells also have this "complete failure" potential - it simply takes a ludicrous stat advantage to actually happen.

<<What else do you want? and tell me how its overpowered but please post your armor ranks and what armor you use. >>

It's overpowered because it's scaled to work Vs. mob stats. All SvS spells suffer from this problem. To a lesser degree, all contested spells suffer from this problem. Specifically, creatures tend to have exceptionally high stamina so that they actually survive for a decent amount of time while you're beating on them. This causes their stats for SvS spells to be much higher than what is found in PvP, and the equation is balanced for casting at monster-level stamina. This causes it to be quite broken in a way that is similar, though not as extreme, as the way chill spirit was broken.

<<I know this spell will be revaluated, Im pretty sure you will still whine and cry even if its changed because you seem to want it to not hit you at all versus your stats alone. It dont work that way.>>

Actually, it does work that way. That's what contested spells are.

Currently, the only contested equation involving skills is the SvA one. Guess what? The skill portion is being stripped.

I think your assuming to much. I must be a god to be able to shrug off SF then( which I doubt). even from people with better stats than me. Since im pretty much Agility and reflex built. But oh well I bet it has nothing to do with my 500+ ranks of HP it has to be all luck. Yeah you are saying one thing and im proof how sucky even a level 100 paladin Sf maxed cast at me is. I stick by what I said if people had the armor skill this would not be a problem and by it having damage reduction by armor, that mean it has a skill check get that through your head. Everything else I dont care anymore to keep discussing back and forth, Im starting to feel like im in a kindergarden you did it no you did it stand off. GM can do what they feel they need to do last I heard SF was working as intended but will have a revaluation, that dont mean its gonna change just that they will take a look at it and see if they need to. Just you knowing it can be stopped by armor even with less stat vs stats. Is all anyone needs to know.


Rekon

Ok let me try to clear this up, because its getting quite umm tedious reading the same thing over and over. Let me know if this is correct:

You guys seem to be arguing about two different points in a sucessful cast of the spell.

MORS you are arguing that the spell is unfair because there is no skill-check in the primary equation of whether or not the spell can be case sucessfully. To my knowledge this is correct. It is purely stat vs. stat (as are all SvS spells).

PSX71 you are arguing that there is indeed a skill-check, in the form of damage reduction done due to armor. This also is correct.

However, they are two different points in the casting of the spell. An unsucessful cast is unsucessful because it did not get past the stat-check. A sucessful cast (one that gets past the stat-check) will only be tempered by armor skill. The better your armor skill/stats of the armor the less the spell will affect you.

You both agree on the damage reduction of armor skill, and in fact it is true that once your armor skill is high-enough SF produces nothing more than a slap-on-the-wrist. It's simply the point in which there is a stat check that you two seem to be having an argument about.

In conclusion, you are both correct. Will the redesign of SvS spells include a skill-check in the primary equation? I don't know. Should it? I don't know. Whatever the outcome may be, you guys are seem to be arguing about different things.


--Just a "clueless" Squire

Now I lay me down to sleep;
I pray Solomon my soul to keep.
If I should walk before I wake;
I pray that Simutronics a restore will make.

<<MORS you are arguing that the spell is unfair because there is no skill-check in the primary equation of whether or not the spell can be case sucessfully. To my knowledge this is correct. It is purely stat vs. stat (as are all SvS spells).>>

Actually, I don't really mind the lack of a skill check. It bothers a lot of people. I like the variety stat-based spell contest brings. My major issue with SvS is that the existing stat checks are so amazingly off kilter.

Take a look at the attacker/defender stats LORDLOL posted for Vertigo. With 4 mana over what he had to cast at to beat MR (which effectively means 4 mana over min prep) he was able to land the spell on someone with 40? more stamina.

Apply stats like that to the other contested spells and a MAX prep likely won't even land - let alone a near-min prep. This is a scaling issue cause by the discrepancy in mob Vs. player stats.


My major issue with Rekon's statement was that it was flat out wrong on a fundamental level. I know armor helps mitigate the damage from the spell. No one is arguing that. It does the same thing for any spell. In fact, it does the same thing for almost any source of damage - period. There is nothing special about SF, though, that causes it to include armor skill in a way that is distinctly different from how it is included anywhere else.

<<So you have no problem removing the skillchecks which check to see if Burn successfully hits or misses then, right?>>


Considering that there are additional factors that go into Burn like a light moon having to be out I would have no problem with removing a skillcheck to see of Burn successfully hits or not.

<<My vote would be for a SvS rewrite akin to the SvA rewrite, capping damage as necessary and putting the contested equations in line. If this results in people who neglect their SvS stats no longer being able to affect mobs their level, so be it.>>

Valdrik just said, in this very thread, that all contested spells that do damage are being looked at.

The reason the original post about the contested changes focused around SvA was because, in addition to rebalancing, they're also having a complete mechanics change (removal of TM as a factor).

Right. But I was under the impression that the rewrite involved only SvA spells. If it's also going to trigger on other spells that deal damage (offhand, Static Discharge and Frostbite as well as smite foe) I'll feel slightly vindicated.

---

Orpheus: "You've been powering this machine with a forsaken child?"
Venture: "What? It's not like I used the whole thing."

It's actually not THAT odd. There are a number of reasonable explanations for it, mostly centering around the fact that SvA equations, unlike other contested equations, utilize skill to some degree. Additionally, we know the equations for SvA aren't working quite as intended.

I'm curious as to how many casts your performed. It's likely that you're simply at a borderline point where the random factor is enough to swing from nearly-no-effect to instagib.

LORDLOL and myself (to a far, far lesser degree) were playing with shadowweb earlier and he found what appears to be a fairly massive random factor that was quite noticeable when offense and defense were on similar ground. For instance, he could dodge a min prep sdwb from himself at, I think it was 40%-50% evasion, and still web himself at 100% evasion.

I wouldn't be surprised if you're seeing the same thing.

> I wasn't aware that your evasion stance affected SvA spells to any significant degree. Did you try seeing if you got consistantly struck while at 0%?

Yes, I would get stuck every time at 0%.

Stance attack also affected how well the spell performed. Although there was some weird bug with SDWB when using the lowered stance attack 0%. It would still web my Empath (in the messaging), but he wouldn't actually be webbed. Turning stance attack back up fixed that.

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wandering, not wondering - not praying for, nor pondering...

> Actually they do get webbed, it just only lasts 1 second. It is enough however to stop certain actions if timed very well. Most the times it'll go completely unnoticed though.

I typed "cast;look" with stance attack 0% and you are right, they are webbed. It is however for less than a second. My Empath was able to exit the room on a script 0.5 seconds after my Moonmage sent the "cast" command. There is also no normal messaging for the target or room that they have escaped.

Regardless, if I am in stance attack 100%, he is webbed for a couple minutes, not 0.5 - 1 second, which was really the main point I was making - that stance attack affects the power of the spell.

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wandering, not wondering - not praying for, nor pondering...

<<Learn to read I said FROM my exp. it seemed to be more strength as well you leave out casters PM which is also taken into account in SvS as well as other contested spells. >>

Wrong.

PM, in fact, has absolutely, positively, NO direct effect on contested spells at all. None. Nada. Zip.

I'm sure you'll come back insisting that I'm wrong.

To prevent that, I'm just going to go ahead and make a preemptive strike.

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Category Abilities, Skills and Magic (4)
Topic General Magic Feedback - CORE ISSUES -(CAST, PREPARE, HARNESS, PERCEIVE) (37)
By DR-RIGBY from PLAY.NET (Magic Team Supervisor)
On Sep 4, 2002 at 14:25
Subject Contested Spell Change and Explanation (3304)

Greets,

Some contested spell formula changes are coming as soon as Valdrik, Damissak and I can get some final testing done. Likely before or on the coming weekend (Sept 6th-8th).

Contested spells include Will vs Will, Spell vs Stamina, and Spell vs Agility. This change may possibly cause mages to alter their spell casting habits when using a contested spell. Since this has the potential to be an upset to what you've gotten used to, we're revealing what stats are applicable for all contested spells.

For Spell vs Agility spells: The caster will use discipline, charisma, reflex and agility and targeted magic. The target uses reflex, agility, and evasion. Modifiers are balance of the target and how much TM/Evasion factors into the particular spell. The changes here are the addition of reflex and agility to the caster's side of the equation, and appropriate fiddling to maintain formula balance on the side of the target.

For Will(Spell) vs Will spells: The caster will use discipline, charisma, and intelligence. The target uses discipline, charisma, and intelligence. A modifier is nerve damage for both sides. Changes here include the addition of intelligence to both sides.

For Spell vs Stamina spells: The caster will use discipline, charisma, stamina and strength. The target uses stamina and strength. A modifier is current health of the target. The change here is the addition of stamina and strength to the part of the caster, and appropriate fiddling to maintain forumla balance on the side of the target.

ALL contested spells are currently and will continue to be modified by range to target (except for area spells), and by how much mana the caster puts into the spell. Both sides of the formula are otherwise equally balanced, but we are not revealing the ratios -- only which stats are used, not which is most important. Primary magic does NOT play a role except in the fact that it allows a mage to put more mana into the spell.

This will mean that individual mages, depending on how they have and want to train their stats, will tend to have a particular type of contested spell that they excel at. Likewise, there will be particular targets who may be more or less resistant to specific types of contested spells. All of the above applies equally to both critters and players.

I'm sure this was a pretty enlightening post. ;)

Rigby

---

Emphasis added.

Dismissed.

<<I don't know. Would the fact that higher PM skill directly affects the ability of the spell caster to overcome MR with less mana be considered a direct or indirect effect?>>

That would be an indirect effect. For starters, that check is not exclusive to contested spells - all offensive spellcasts go through an MR check.

That entire process takes place prior to, and as a completely seperate step from, the spell contest itself.

It may or may not prevent the reduction of one of the factors on the attackers side. In other words, at best it will allow 100% of the mana you cast the spell with to be used. At best. It will not further strengthen the spell, however.

I'd help ya teeklin (95 combined) but i'm in TF.
Bard if it means anything.


~Mibe

i know this aint a roar folder but its stat contest too and i was wondering if it too will get redone with the magic stat contest, it doesnt use mana but still seems to be able to immobilize with no rt or targetting someone with more disc and charisma then you, as me and some barbs seen in some tests, that combined with the fact they can do 5 in a second


Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.

<<so yes PM does affect it indirect BUT it does affect it other wise what would be the point in adding more mana to a spell if PM didn't affect it at all? It wouldn't because 15 mana as long as it got past MR wouldn't be any different than 30 >>


PM isn't mana. PM simply determines how much mana you can cast at without backfiring. This is for all spells - it's not at all related to contested spells. There are 3 major checks that take place when you cast a contested spell.

1. Casting success. This takes place for EVERY spell cast. It is not unique to contested spells. PM is checked here.

2. MR. PM is also checked here, though MR is pretty inconsequential in any situation not including a barbarian.

In the sample I gave before, the target was roughly 100 circles higher than the caster (who had a whopping 360 PM). That amounted to only 3-4 mana points worth of magic resistance.

All spells cast on another person go through this check as well, with the exception of beneficial spells when cast on a magic user.

MR basically works by directly reducing the amount of mana in the spellcast. If it reduces it below the min prep of the spell, the spell fails.


3. The contested spell check.

This is mana + stats Vs. stats (miscellaneous adjusters since as range to target, nerve damage, health, etc. are included as well).

Mana is included here. Mana is not PM. PM is not checked here.

Mage A, with 500 PM and 50 char/int/disc, casting MB at 15 mana at an adan'f shadow mage will achieve the exact same results as Mage B, with 5000 PM and 50 char/int/disc casting MB at 15 mana at an adan'f shadow mage.

---

Quite frankly, your comment about my not posting the casting character's PM did, in fact, Weaken any argument you may have had.

He has a whopping 360 PM and is 55th circle.

The character he was casting at is 116th (literally 116th. Realistically, he's more or less 150th.) circle with almost 1200 PM.

The reason I excluded his PM was because it wasn't relevant.

He was casting at what was effectively mininimum prep. If you stop to actually think about what that means, given all this new information, you might actually understand why it was irrelevant.

Know it's been a while, but I did some tests with Trop who has pretty much equal reflex and agility to me (up 5 on me, although obviously with a ton of evasion). With SUF up I couldn't effect him at all, balance is a huge huge factor plus the stat boosts. Without it up my max cast of 30 hit him with a strong hit that stunned him for just a second. Basically comes to 30 mana equalling whatever evasion Trop has, probably well into the 400s (didn't okay giving out anything of his so I didn't ask hard numbers for skills).

I'd be happy to test with ya Semi, hit me up at TeeklinDR.

I really think that BB is inline at this point, it's something that doesn't work very well on barbs for BMR, that paladins have few problems dealing with due to armor and stamina, that's hard to break through shear and SoD, and that is so hopelessly dependant on balance. In other tests it doubles the amount of mana I need to web bristles when they're incred rather than solid.

Hope that helps.


-Teeklin

"Those who dream by night, in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of day are dangerous men for they may act their dream with open eyes and make it possible."