>>Teveshszat: They exist for that purpose, but I'm pretty sure TM and Debilitation weren't included was because of the "only in combat" thing. I know you quoted other parts explaining why, but I'm rather certain there's the whole combat risk thingy going on, as well.

That may be a reason, but having re-read GM posts about research, I don't think it's the main reason. Most of the comments focused on expanding training options, the possibility of future development, and ancillary benefits like providing non-spammy ways to train magic in social settings.

There's also Socharis's teaser comment about possible "enhancements to RESEARCH or additional Symbioses that could be used to enhance [combat magics] in the future." Research is currently a non-combat system, so unless they're going to add ways to research in combat (and that would surprise me, given GM comments about how they want to move away from making everything trainable in combat), Socharis's statement seems to imply that there is no hard-line rule prohibiting research of combat magics outside of combat. It's just not a development priority while there are other viable methods of training those skills.

---

Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!

Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html

>>I take that to mean you could research/add a symbiosis to enhances TM spell, not "Research TM 300". You'd still be casting TM in combat with exp primarily driven from at-level combat.

That's possible, but I read "RESEARCH or additional Symbioses" as including the possibility that it won't just be a TM symbiosis.

---

Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!

Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html

Judging from all these posts it seems to me that everyone would be happy with the compromise "Certain furniture items in certain rooms speed up certain classes"

I.E.While In A Training Yard:

TEACH TM TO {Char} With Dummy

Teach Bow To {Char} With Target

Teach Brawling To {Char} With Pit


I think this would make most folks happy because:

1) Combat is currently low risk low reward rather than high risk high reward

2) Combat is no longer combat in DR. It is training. It is very OOC. It is far, far to slanted for solo play over group play. If I want to stab things on my own I'll play Skyrim. If I want to socialize while stabbing things, I play DR. If I want to have a really good story to go along with my stabbing things, I hope DR fits the bill.

3) This TEACH WITH mechanic should make Orders very, very happy. This would be great incentive to make Order houses hang out spots, great for 'coaching' roleplaying opportunities that Orders desperately need, and great for people finding others of similar circle to group hunt with that they may not have so easily met otherwise! How many times do you show up to a group hunt event an Order hosts and it takes half an hour to figure out what to hunt beceause people don't know that much about each other because they ALL train/hunt seperately?

4) This would give people a great opportunity to come up with ways to work together as players while learning said skill ICly. Invasions are supposed to be "This is hard so work together to win" and instead have become "This invasion requires X amount of ranks or just leave town/go hide for a bit." Using training facilities to help PLAYERS train to work together rather than just ICly allowing characters to learn faster would make invasions a much more entertaining and successful enterprise.

5) This is just my personal philosophy but DR for me is far, far more supposed to be a cooperative game than a competitive one. I'm PvP Guarded for a reason- I like it here or there if the RP is good enough but I'm here to work as a team, folks.

>barring our debated teaching exception, none of them have produced systems to allow combat training outside of combat to date

Text books.

-Artificer Nilassa

You notice Kssarh trying to remain hidden while speaking.
You hear the voice of Kssarh say, "Slackers."

>>Combat is no longer combat in DR. It is training. It is very OOC

I'm not sure when combat in DR was your envisioning of combat; it's always been training. I also kinda I disagree that it's inherently OOC; it's as IC as you want to make it.

Just as two examples:
1) On quest runs we use group tactics to take down bosses very fast.
2) During invasions with high end mob bosses, my character can't always hit mobs, but can sometimes analyze them. I'd analyze over and over to max out debuff hits while telling the Barbarian that can hit the mob what moves to do.

There's nothing really wrong with using dummies as an RP prop to train, but you could do this as it is. Get some crafted swords with terrible stats and playfight while teaching a weapon skill. RP out casting TM spells against a tree or whatever during a TM class. Your suggestions for having props enhance the teaching experience isn't bad, but there's nothing that is keeping you from doing that right now as it is.

---

Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

Not feeling compelled by something doesn't make it OOC. Combat is something your character is doing; It can't get any "more IC".

If we shift combat learning combat through non-combat learning method all we really accomplish is removal of the inherent danger we want to exist when training combat skills and everyone has to spend a few days adjusting their scripts.

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

>> I'm not sure when combat in DR was your envisioning of combat; it's always been training. I also kinda I disagree that it's inherently OOC; it's as IC as you want to make it.

completely IC paladin combat would be outrageously funny..

"Field goblin! The path to righteousness is not to hurt others, please stop this madness!"
"Please!! I beg you! Listen to me! Violence is not the way.."
"You leave me no choice, i must bring wraith upon you in the name of my god! Die, beast!"

800 goblins later..

"Stop!! Ive already had to kill too many of your brothers.. Why must you all hate me?! I only wanted to walk the path of light."
"FINE!!! Lets just call this a genocide. No one likes goblins anyway!"
"The light has forsaken me!! How could the world be filled with so much hate?!"
"Trothfang? Are you still there?... I didn't mean it.."

tm and debil are not going to be researchable. they've stated the reasons. these reasons are good. Circular debate is circular.

/deadhorse.

<RP was always optional in Prime. You just can't be OOC.

Weird. What's the different? Someone can either be in character, out of character, or ... ? What's the third option?

I mean, sometimes people don't to want to really heavily RP, sure. Sometimes I just want to stand around and chat about the weather. But it hasn't gone OOC until people start talking about football, or skills in terms of ranks and percentages and the like. I think that there's, of course, some measure of leeway regarding going OOC. Naturally. Always has been. No one, not even me, is going to want to crucify anyone else for slipping up every now and then or taking a very relaxed approach to whole thing. Plus, if a group of friends wants to go completely OOC while no one else is around, that's probably fine too. There's always been a certain amount of tolerance for OOC speech/behavior, and that's good. But it's still OOC and it probably shouldn't be done on a busy street in the Crossing around a bunch of strangers.

I distinctly remember RP not being optional in Prime back in the day (that's one of the things that was supposed to be special about The Fallen.) Leeway, yes, of course. But the moment it became too public or too disruptive or too blatant (typically as defined by on-duty GMs or senior players via thump) it was generally stopped pretty quickly.


<Because the actual buildup to becoming the champion is usually very boring.

Hard to make it more boring than it currently is, unless combat is reduced to COLLECT ROCK over and over again. Adding more emphasis on the social element would be a good thing, I think, whether it's done via more friendly group combat ("hunting" scoff, scoff :P) mechanics, or via implementing training areas/classrooms, either way is good.

So you have to be IC but you don't have to RP?

Isn't role-playing just the act of being in character? "Oh, I'm in character but I'm totally not role playing right now." I don't understand.

I get by just fine without role playing, and I've never once mentioned a sports team or anything. Just because I respect the RP environment by moderating what I say and how I say it so it isnt jarring to people who do RP doesn't mean I'm role playing. If you think it does, then you have a very liberal sense of what RP is.

Elriic is right in the TM Research is a dead horse- any further push for it is basically Contempt of Court for the GMs. That is their right.

This has moved on to using props and furniture items to enhance the TEACH command, which I think is still on the table to some degree or another. I don't want it to be quick and efficient- just available. Combat should alwasy teach more AND give you loot.

Its worthy of note that this is intended to produce friendships rather than loot. You'd still have to fight for the money- and hopefully actually earn every silver!

The second, and bigger, topic here is that PvE is too easy and balancing that same code with PvP is becoming increasingly harder among the myriad of other problems I listed that it contributes to.

Ultimately, Raesh, I am not advocating the lessening of risk but quite the opposite- I want more of it. LOTS more of it. Make the players sweat! Helping teaching and other non-combat learning is to balance that out in an RP-enchancing and socially-condusive way.

It just seems that IF combat is made harder DR is more fun and IF it is made harder then things like furniture items helping TEACH a class would be prudent and far from game-breaking.

Instance	being IC	being OOC
Prime	not required	not allowed
Plat	required	definitely not allowed
Fallen	definitely not required	allowed

This chart is strange. I still don't see how one can be neither in nor out of character. Either I'm acting like someone other than myself (in character,) even if it's just in a minor way such as pretending to have no idea what the world cup is, or I'm not (out of character.) Right?

>This chart is strange. I still don't see how one can be neither in nor out of character.

Actively engaging is being 'in character'. Actively being OOC is being 'out of character'. If you, for example, talk about the world cup, you're being OOC. If you go 'hehe jee what is that? Togball is playing?' you're being IC.

If, instead, you ignore it entirely, you're neither being IC nor OOC.

You're missing the active part of being IC. Sure, if you gymnastics yourself enough you can come up with 'but my characters action to that would have been utter taupe' and that's fine. But for most people, removing the gweths, and going out where they don't have to deal with people isn't about an IC choice, it's about 'I as a human behind the player simply want to make numbers go up and have no intention of RP'ing with anyone thanks'.

TF is different in that you don't have to be IC ever. In fact, it would be dumb to.

---

I'm a badger, I be badgerin'

I think we've all saying the same thing about the RP versus IC debate; it's just a matter of semantics. Let's try to get back on the topic of Targeted Magic.

Now if you will excuse me, I am going to go talk about my upcoming Fourth of July vacation while I watch my TM numbers go up! :]

Helje
DragonRealms Board Monitor

If you have any questions or comments, please contact me at MOD-Helje@play.net, Senior Board Monitor Sidatura at DR-Sidatura@play.net, or Message Board Supervisor Annwyl DR-Annwyl@play.net.

It doesn't really matter 'how' slow non-combat training of combat skills is. Unless it's crippled, like teaching, it's simply going to be abused. Players are fine with camping out and scripting for 40 hours if it means absolutely 0 risk.

So either the system has to be so hobbled, crippled, and tedious that it's pointless, or it's going to be abused.

---

I'm a badger, I be badgerin'

While I agree in spirit, the "good" and "bad" both pay the same price to play the game. As long as one isn't being actively disruptive of the other, I don't think it is a big deal.

Also I have never seen a GM say not to report a bad name, but make sure the name you are reporting is actually in violation. A name you feel is OOC may also have a way to be interpreted within policy. Justin Bieber is a name clearly in violation of policy. Boogerguy is more of a grey area I think. There are a lot of names I personally think are stupid that are not breaking the rules (alas).

- Starlear, Warrior Mage and Lieutenant of Ilithi's Crystal Vanguard -

- I maintain the Warrior Mage Beginner's Guide at:

https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Beginner%27s_Warrior_Mage_Guide

So, two things always.

1) We do not publicly discuss the specifics of individuals' accounts.
2) We do not discuss specific hypothetical situations.

That said, you should always feel free to REPORT once if you see someone you believe a name needs to be removed and there's some pressing reason to believe we missed it. At which point, after your one REPORT, we will take what appropriate action we can. That may very well be "nothing whatsoever," but you'll have brought it to our attention and that's all the ethical obligation you can possibly hold.

Remember: Stupid is not against the rules. I'd nuke half of you guys' names if I was dictating this based on my aesthetic values. We have very specific criteria for what is a policy-inappropriate name, and whether I'd name my baby that isn't it.

-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas

>>And Tev.... you're right. I started throwing spaghetti at the wall because I am frustrated at the way many players play and how that play style has influenced the rest of the game. Yes, they pay so I don't any right to change them but that does not alleviate my frustrations. I'll work on it.

Don't get me wrong—I fully encourage people to bang a gong if afk scripting is going on, if horribly OOC names are waddling about, if people are being OOC in general, etc. I just don't think that the perceived lack of enforcement should be a reason for the systems you're proposing.

As a whole, TM dummies are a cool idea as an RP prop. Heck, as I (and others?) said they already exist [somewhere in Qi?], and encouraging them to be used/played with elsewhere would be fun. I just disagree that it should be a scalable tool to teach TM with.

---

Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.