A couple of questions:

How close is close? Will we be warned or just immediately hit with a huge fine?

Why would you choose to immediately be arrested and penalize the player for what is clearly a mechanical limitation of the system? Wouldn't a warning to the player preventing the burgling until they reduce their item count suffice? I get that you don't want people to break the game by poofing to the junkyard from inside a burgle, but those fines can be upwards of 1k plat, and you didn't even explain how close is "close."

>How close is close? Will we be warned or just immediately hit with a huge fine?

Answer popped up in a different thread, within 10 items of limit.

Jalika

Any chance we could get something more precise from INV CHECK? Right now, the ranges come back in increments of 50, and the warning appears to kick in at 76, not 90.

Ragge hands over your lockpick.

>
WARNING: You are carrying most of your inventory's capacity on your person.
It is recommended that you reduce your inventory count below 75 items.
99 is the maximum you can carry before being subjected to the junk room.

You can use the INVENTORY CHECK command to see roughly how many you have.
If you have a gem pouch or a bundle, consider tying it to lower your count.
[Note: TIE POUCH or TIE BUNDLE. You will NOT be able to get stuff out after!]
[Because your account is free, you don't have access to increased inventory capacity (up to 300 items). To purchase access, visit www.play.net/dr/store .]
> stow l

You put your lockpick in your rucksack.
>

inv check
You are carrying between 50 and 100 items on you.

[Because your account is free, you don't have access to increased inventory capacity (up to 300 items). To purchase access, visit www.play.net/dr/store .]

[Use INVENTORY HELP for more options.]


I was able to buy 23 more lockpicks and was sent to the junkroom at 24. INV CHECK does give a different message at over 90.
Yes, I know about lockkpick rings, I just wanted something cheap to use to test the inv limit and messaging.

A more exact Inventory count would be a great QoL update.
My character has high stats in all attributes , but can't count how many items he is wearing.
yet can count a stack of ammo or other items into the hundreds.
definately time to update this verb.

https://elanthipedia.play.net/Stealing_list

There's your stealing progression.

---

TG, TG, GL, et al.

"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors." -Raesh

I'm with Hanryu on this tambien. Burgle has helped me learn thievery. I had quit learning thievery (or stealing as it was called at that time) due to how much pain it was to learn for a ranger. You had to be in town, which fried our bonus and it took a while to do, especially if you had to find some harder things to steal. I'm learning thievery well right now, which I am sure will change soon, because my thievery was so bad. But, even then one can do it once in a wilderness justice area, which doesn't fry our bonus to bad.

Only thing would be if you find a keepsake box to have it teach some perception. Say only learn perception 2-3 times while you're locking and picking that box.

I'm all for making systems that make skills easy to learn, not make you treat it like a full time job.

Bluefalcon

>My only MAJOR concern with burgle is this new change. Make it so we can't burgle if we have to many items. What kind of fascist society arrests people for owning too many things?

America doesn't run the risk of corruption if someone owns too many things.

.... Well, memory/data corruption at least.

Thieves already have a bonus for how often they can B&E which equates to more experience. Survival primary guilds already have a bonus for potential profit by the rooms they may unlock. It's already easy enough to gain exp and profit from B&E, IMO.

https://elanthipedia.play.net/Breaking_and_Entering

Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!

Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0

There's just no progression with burgle. Now that I've made a script, I'll just run the same script for 1750 ranks. The exp is overly-generous, especially compared to alternatives. The risk is all binary, and in 400 runs I haven't had an incident with my script. This system is the most anti-rank/anti-exp/anti-stat system I've ever seen in DR.

I'm torn. On one hand, I've always wanted breaking and entering. I've always felt that shoplifting was overly punitive, especially for non-thieves. But this implementation really lacks some of the nuance that makes DR so interesting.

Also, I feel like players aren't complaining because the exp is generous. But suddenly there's a bunch of survival skills that became trivial to train. I don't get it. And I'm surprised that so many people seem to like it because it's easy.

>>DRSCOTT

DRSCOTT perfectly articulates my feelings about the burglary system.

I was able to fund several brand new characters from rank 0 using the burglary system with no incidents. My newly-minted Trader's highest skill is Thievery by a significant margin. It's such a good trainer that it's really hard to abstain from it, even if it doesn't make a ton of sense for a given character.

Before people jump down my throat -- I played a Thief for ages and ages, and wrote one of the scripts that used to circulate for shoplifting back in the dark times before genie was widespread. I know that pain.

But this is very nearly just pushing an EXP button, unless some sort of unforeseen OOC mishap occurs (ISP issues, power outage, child eating dirt, dirt eating child).

EXP buttons will of course be wildly popular. Burglary system aside, they are easy to make. They are easy to sell for $$$, people will always buy them and heap praises upon systems that implement them. But they are bad for the long term health of the game.

Burglary is a system with loads of potential, but its execution needs improvement.

-- Qihhth et al

'One Room DR' Delenda Est!

>>Beyond TDP farming, thievery, athletics, skinning, first aid, scholarship, performance and so on offer little in helping you navigate the game

I think this is the rub. I'm not saying it should be hard to train Thievery for the sake of being hard, or that the systems should be designed so that they're difficult to script. What good game design looks like, to me, is for the skills you mentioned to have something to offer, some reason why you would actually want to train them.

For a good example of an engaging Thievery system, see the Throne Museum. There are many ways to engage with that system; you can attempt to attack it with pure skill, you can steal things from the museum that makes it easier to steal from the museum, you can seek support from other players to help, either directly or via purchased enchantments. The rewards offered (at one time) were singular, there were some things that almost anyone could get and some things that were considered difficult to get / pinnacle items. It required some amount of player knowledge to engage with. People did (maybe still do?) museum raids just for fun. Because it was fun. I don't see anyone grouping up to engage with the burglary system.

Good game design isn't making useless skills easy to train, it's making useless skills useful, reasonable to engage in without sophisticated scripts, and reasonable to train with reasonable risk/reward trade offs.

If you like EXPs buttons, you may as well go roll up a half halfling tickle-mimic in progress quest. And honestly, if all you want is to keep people hitting the button or shelling out for that MT item, a fixed ratio, fixed interval reward schedule is not the way to do it.

-- Qihhth et al

'One Room DR' Delenda Est!

How easy it is to gain experience is a tricky balancing act. The reality is, we have things from "gaze sano cry" which are no RT/All exp solutions. You have easier systems, like B&E, where you gain more experience and there is some time and some risk, but mitigated with cooldowns and simple commands. Then there are systems like crafting which require a lot of time, tons of tools, and familiarity with the system. I enjoy figuring out some of the complex systems, and writing scripts to be most efficient. All of the above example for me include now "pressing a button" to run that associated script. For some people, that level of testing isn't fun, and they find B&E more accessible than crafting. I'm not saying one way or another is right, but I think players should be able to choose a simpler or more complex system based on your level of enjoyment. Ideally the rewards would be comparable (I think shoplifting exp needs an uptick).

> don't see anyone grouping up to engage with the burglary system.
I hold a weekly Ranger Heist before the Ranger Mentor meeting, usually announcing on the ranger gweth channel and discord. I have a lot of fun with the grouping system, both by helping other players to learn the system (even as simplified as it is, some have felt hesitant to engage with it) and because of the additional time bonuses allowing us to access more rooms.

I was someone who got most of their ranks back in ye olden days, stealing uphill both ways in the snow (without mark). I still utilize the shoplifting system, because I enjoy the skill outside of easy button B&E. I steal lockpicks from the shop for my picking, even though I could just as easily spend the coin to buy it. I steal herbs that don't teach well making via alchemy. I still want to go back and try all those shops to see if I can get the items that have been out of reach. I wish I could use the Museum. There should be better rewards for those who wish to engage with that system. Pawning is still a disaster and the ROI on shoplifting is crazy low.

Jalika

Speaking of which, I'd love to see something like the duskruin bank run. Another burgle like option for non-burglers. Make it use the same CD, so you choose one or the other. Call it patrol.

Something like this...

1. Type patrol to enter the dark alley.
You get some flavor text. Maybe cries for help that lead you into a house. Enter the same the way as burgle to avoid undue suspicion.
Immediate burst of athletics + perception. Rangers get some tracking. Paladins get a little soul and conviction.

It's only a single room, but there are 7 possible nouns to search. Options available are random with each attempt, but what you learn from each attempt is the same each time.
... Dark shadows, sketchy peddler, disheveled building, makeshift shanty, backdoor, shady occultist, and gambler's corner.

2. Search [thing] to get a possible xp reward based on successfully searching the thing. Successful "wins" against each contest give you more xp than a failure (less xp). Conviction & soul for paladins on all successful wins.
....Shadows: Potentially find a thief (stealth + perception). Chase it down (athletics) and call the guards, except thieves who lecture it on the lack of skill (+confidence).
....Peddler: Potentially find contraband (perception + Trading). You can correctly dispose of it at a later time for the skill. It can be traded or sold. F2Ps never see this one.
........Curious vial (alchemy), glowing rod (enchanting), counterfeit sword (forging), threadbare gloves (outfitting), deadly trap (engineering).
........Failure to successfully dispose teaches nothing and may cause harm to yourself.
....Building: Potentially find a gang meeting (perception). You pick the lock and sneak in before scaring them away (lockpicking, performance).
....Shanty: you find a wounded vagabond (100% success). You care for vagabond (first aid + Empathy + bonus Devotion + bonus Soul).
....Backdoor: You find a promiscuous individual hanging around (perception). You convince them to peruse a new career (performance).
....Occultist: Identify the occultist (perception + Theurgy + Conviction + Thanatology??). They make a scene, so you kill them (+brawling, theurgy, conviction, devotion). Necromancer, cleric, and paladin only.
....Corner: Determine if the dealer is legitimate (perception + trading). Break up the game (performance), except traders who play the game (trading + coins).

3. Footsteps message is still around. Except not leaving the alley in time won't get you arrested. You get shiv'd or mugged if you're around too long.

4. The contests flex, but buffs help you win them.

5. Paladins get pretty strong bonuses via their spells or glyphs, perhaps more time, and a reduced CD.

6. Type go street to leave the alley
No skill bonuses on exit. You get them on entry.