Maybe this is old news but evasion seems really bad.
Alternating parry and shield primary with evasion secondary for 4 hours of hunting with full ranger bonus (I assume that helps evasion) and instinct up = lots of wounds and at least a couple of bleeders
Using shield and parry with 0 evasion for 4 hours and no buffs = half the amount of wounds, no bleeders.
Not to mention my evasion skill is WAY higher than parry and shield skill.
JWARK4
ABSOLON
Re: Is it just me or is evasion just horrible?
07/23/2016 12:50 AM CDT
<<Maybe this is old news but evasion seems really bad.
Not in my experience. There are some things that penalize evasion more than other things which might be affecting you. Hindrance, in particular the mixing penalty, has by far the largest effect on evasion in my experience. High burden being the next thing. Evasion is also the defence most penalized by having multiple opponents on you, but I've found that to be far less of an issue than the other two things.
I'm not sure if evasion is more affected by damaged armor than other defences, but I always make sure it's fully repaired if I'm having issues with getting hit. (This is primarily with sub 150 rank combats, since by that point one has pretty much grown into whatever equipment set up is being used, and critter ranges start getting a wider around then.)
<<Alternating parry and shield primary with evasion secondary
I'm wondering if it's this that is making the difference too. I always run evasion at 100% and the remaining 80% all in either parry or shield. I usually put the bonus stance points into the same defence I put the 80% into, but sometimes I add it to the third one instead depending on mood.
<<full ranger bonus (I assume that helps evasion)
Nope. Evasion is one of the excluded skills for both Ranger and Thief bonuses.
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Not in my experience. There are some things that penalize evasion more than other things which might be affecting you. Hindrance, in particular the mixing penalty, has by far the largest effect on evasion in my experience. High burden being the next thing. Evasion is also the defence most penalized by having multiple opponents on you, but I've found that to be far less of an issue than the other two things.
I'm not sure if evasion is more affected by damaged armor than other defences, but I always make sure it's fully repaired if I'm having issues with getting hit. (This is primarily with sub 150 rank combats, since by that point one has pretty much grown into whatever equipment set up is being used, and critter ranges start getting a wider around then.)
<<Alternating parry and shield primary with evasion secondary
I'm wondering if it's this that is making the difference too. I always run evasion at 100% and the remaining 80% all in either parry or shield. I usually put the bonus stance points into the same defence I put the 80% into, but sometimes I add it to the third one instead depending on mood.
<<full ranger bonus (I assume that helps evasion)
Nope. Evasion is one of the excluded skills for both Ranger and Thief bonuses.
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JWARK4
Re: Is it just me or is evasion just horrible?
07/23/2016 08:27 AM CDT
This is what I've observed hunting warklins in only light armor. No encumbrance. I keep it repaired. I also will use evasion as primary (100%) but that even seems worse.
"But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently minimally hindered and your stealth is minimally hindered."
"But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently minimally hindered and your stealth is minimally hindered."
RCHIGHT
Re: Is it just me or is evasion just horrible?
07/23/2016 10:10 AM CDT
I've done the same as the OP with Parry 100% or Shield 100% / Evasion remainder for a year now. Here's my findings. It's all random. Sometimes I come out of a three to four hour hunting trip with two abrasions and sometimes I come out all messed up with a single bleeder. I seriously believe it's about the random aspects of combat, which I like btw.
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DERIUM
Re: Is it just me or is evasion just horrible?
07/23/2016 10:16 AM CDT
> Using shield and parry with 0 evasion for 4 hours and no buffs = half the amount of wounds, no bleeders.
That sounds about right from my experience, but it also seems (non-scientific, I know) that balance hits evasion far worse than the other stats.
My experience with day-to-day hunting is that parry > shield (small) > evasion > shield (medium) > shield (large).
That of course flips if we're talking about ranged or magic attacks.
JWARK4
Re: Is it just me or is evasion just horrible?
07/23/2016 02:14 PM CDT
<I've done the same as the OP with Parry 100% or Shield 100%>
Have you tested with parry 100 shield remainder, evasion at 0? It does not seem random at all to me. I've been observing this for months before I posted.
it's not even by a little bit. It's far superior to keep my evasion at 0 even with more evasion skill than shield and parry.
Have you tested with parry 100 shield remainder, evasion at 0? It does not seem random at all to me. I've been observing this for months before I posted.
it's not even by a little bit. It's far superior to keep my evasion at 0 even with more evasion skill than shield and parry.
SEPED
Re: Is it just me or is evasion just horrible?
07/23/2016 08:04 PM CDT
As a counter example, I frequently cycle my defenses and 0 evasion gets me train wrecked compared to 100 evasion and 80~ any other defense as a ranger. This was with my evasion about 15-20% higher than other defenses before buffs due to survival prime. Hows your hindrance? I'm currently at 'But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently insignificantly (3/14) hindered and your stealth is minimally (2/14) hindered.'
ABSOLON
Re: Is it just me or is evasion just horrible?
07/23/2016 08:42 PM CDT
<<This is what I've observed hunting warklins in only light armor. No encumbrance. I keep it repaired. I also will use evasion as primary (100%) but that even seems worse
This is the exact situation I'm in except different guild. Moon Mage, warklins, only light armor, at most light burden when bundle gets big. I hunt for like 6 hours with only scratches and scrapes alternating between 100 evasion with either 80 parry or shield.
Not at my computer to check exact stats, but it's something like 475 evasion and 420 parry and shield. Weapons are around 390 or so I think. Reflex is 89.
Actually that might it... As a gnome I have severely overtrained reflex due to following the cheapest stat first strategy post 30 in everything. I think reflex factors most into evasion relative to other defences.
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This is the exact situation I'm in except different guild. Moon Mage, warklins, only light armor, at most light burden when bundle gets big. I hunt for like 6 hours with only scratches and scrapes alternating between 100 evasion with either 80 parry or shield.
Not at my computer to check exact stats, but it's something like 475 evasion and 420 parry and shield. Weapons are around 390 or so I think. Reflex is 89.
Actually that might it... As a gnome I have severely overtrained reflex due to following the cheapest stat first strategy post 30 in everything. I think reflex factors most into evasion relative to other defences.
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JWARK4
Re: Is it just me or is evasion just horrible?
07/23/2016 09:15 PM CDT
<As a counter example, I frequently cycle my defenses and 0 evasion gets me train wrecked compared to 100 evasion and 80~ any other defense as a ranger. This was with my evasion about 15-20% higher than other defenses before buffs due to survival prime. Hows your hindrance? I'm currently at 'But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently insignificantly (3/14) hindered and your stealth is minimally (2/14) hindered.'>
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently minimally hindered and your stealth is minimally hindered (mine is lower.)
Encumbrance : None (my bundle is full right now)
Agility : 70
Reflex : 70
You're saying 0 evasion using something like parry 100 and shield 90 gets you wrecked?
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently minimally hindered and your stealth is minimally hindered (mine is lower.)
Encumbrance : None (my bundle is full right now)
Agility : 70
Reflex : 70
You're saying 0 evasion using something like parry 100 and shield 90 gets you wrecked?
SEPED
Re: Is it just me or is evasion just horrible?
07/23/2016 10:48 PM CDT
>You're saying 0 evasion using something like parry 100 and shield 90 gets you wrecked?
When I'm in a new hunting area and it's dangerous, yes very much compared to evasion. I'm always about 15-20 reflexes higher than agility though, and SOTT on top of that for even more reflexes.
ABSOLON
Re: Is it just me or is evasion just horrible?
07/24/2016 12:11 AM CDT
<<This is the exact situation I'm in except different guild. Moon Mage, warklins, only light armor, at most light burden when bundle gets big. I hunt for like 6 hours with only scratches and scrapes alternating between 100 evasion with either 80 parry or shield.
<<Not at my computer to check exact stats, but it's something like 475 evasion and 420 parry and shield. Weapons are around 390 or so I think. Reflex is 89.
In game now to get more accurate numbers for you to compare with:
Evasion: 467
Shield Usage: 404
Light Armor: 410
Defending: 407
Parry Ability: 394
Small Edged: 361
Light Thrown: 352
Heavy Thrown: 352
Brawling: 359
Offhand Weapon: 375
Melee Mastery: 388
Missile Mastery: 368
Current Rank | Cost to Train to Next Rank
Strength: 40 | 180 TDPs
Reflex: 87 | 175 TDPs
Agility: 70 | 175 TDPs
Charisma: 58 | 174 TDPs
Discipline: 59 | 177 TDPs
Wisdom: 58 | 174 TDPs
Intelligence: 87 | 175 TDPs
Stamina: 44 | 176 TDPs
You are now set to use your shield stance:
Attack : 100%
Evade : 100%
Parry : 0%
Block : 84%
You are now set to use your parry stance:
Attack : 100%
Evade : 100%
Parry : 84%
Block : 0%
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently lightly (4/14) hindered and your stealth is lightly (4/14) hindered.
Encumbrance : None
All of your combat:
a coarse lava drake-hide cowl
some coarse lava drake-hide leathers
a gargoyle-hide targe
a silver-hued parry stick with reinforced silken straps
some darkstone hand claws
some coarse lava drake-hide gloves
some silver-toed footwraps with Musparan silk straps
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<<Not at my computer to check exact stats, but it's something like 475 evasion and 420 parry and shield. Weapons are around 390 or so I think. Reflex is 89.
In game now to get more accurate numbers for you to compare with:
Evasion: 467
Shield Usage: 404
Light Armor: 410
Defending: 407
Parry Ability: 394
Small Edged: 361
Light Thrown: 352
Heavy Thrown: 352
Brawling: 359
Offhand Weapon: 375
Melee Mastery: 388
Missile Mastery: 368
Current Rank | Cost to Train to Next Rank
Strength: 40 | 180 TDPs
Reflex: 87 | 175 TDPs
Agility: 70 | 175 TDPs
Charisma: 58 | 174 TDPs
Discipline: 59 | 177 TDPs
Wisdom: 58 | 174 TDPs
Intelligence: 87 | 175 TDPs
Stamina: 44 | 176 TDPs
You are now set to use your shield stance:
Attack : 100%
Evade : 100%
Parry : 0%
Block : 84%
You are now set to use your parry stance:
Attack : 100%
Evade : 100%
Parry : 84%
Block : 0%
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently lightly (4/14) hindered and your stealth is lightly (4/14) hindered.
Encumbrance : None
All of your combat:
a coarse lava drake-hide cowl
some coarse lava drake-hide leathers
a gargoyle-hide targe
a silver-hued parry stick with reinforced silken straps
some darkstone hand claws
some coarse lava drake-hide gloves
some silver-toed footwraps with Musparan silk straps
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JWARK4
Re: Is it just me or is evasion just horrible?
07/24/2016 01:00 AM CDT
Well maybe that's it. It still seems bad that you have to raise a stat and buff it so much to make it good. I mean I was noticing this with 540 evasion and 480 parry/shield. Seems off to me but whatever, luckily I'm a ranger and train shield and parry pretty well.
RCHIGHT
Re: Is it just me or is evasion just horrible?
07/24/2016 11:59 AM CDT
>Have you tested with parry 100 shield remainder, evasion at 0?
Used? Yes. Tested? No. I'm at a place where this if feasible for me to test now so if I remember this thread I'll come back in a few weeks and, most probably, validate what you are seeing. Heh.
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Used? Yes. Tested? No. I'm at a place where this if feasible for me to test now so if I remember this thread I'll come back in a few weeks and, most probably, validate what you are seeing. Heh.
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RCHIGHT
Re: Is it just me or is evasion just horrible?
07/24/2016 12:05 PM CDT
I do have one question about stancing parry/shield only. Do you not stance any evasion when using sling/xbow/bow as well? I, like most everyone, wear a parry stick so I'm wondering how effective you are seeing parry/shield with ranged as compared to damage received if this is the case.
Thanks.
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Thanks.
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RCHIGHT
Re: Is it just me or is evasion just horrible?
07/24/2016 12:21 PM CDT
>My experience with day-to-day hunting is that parry > shield (small) > evasion > shield (medium) > shield (large).
I believe this is correct (depending on the guild and whether the shield is arm worn or held) based on this info from Kodius.
>>Evasion: Takes overall hindrance (armor + shield) and this value penalizes the stat bonus to evasion skill by a large amount, and evasion skill by a smaller amount.
>>Parry: Overall hindrance penalizes skill bonus from weapon balance and stats, shield hindrance penalizes parry ranks.
>>Shield: Shield hindrance penalizes stat bonus to skill.
>>So I think the error here is shield should be using (overall hindrance - shield hindrance) to determine the penalty to shield skill. Its hindrance penalty is too small currently. We'll see, not in any rush to fix this just yet.
So ...
Evasion gets a bonus from stats which is heavily penalized by overall hindrance. Overall hindrance directly penalizes the evasion skill. (Highest penalty overall)
Parry gets bonus from both weapon balance and stats with the bonus being penalized by overall hindrance. Only shield hindrance directly penalizes the parry skill. (Medium penalty overall)
Shield gets a bonus from stats which only shield hindrance penalizes. There is no penalty directly to shield skill. (Lowest penalty overall)
So depending on SOI it could shield and parry can swap around but evasion will always be the highest penalized those pushing it down below parry and shield in 90% of guilds, armor configuration, and weapon being used (excluding non-thrown ranged).
Does my logic hold up?
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I believe this is correct (depending on the guild and whether the shield is arm worn or held) based on this info from Kodius.
>>Evasion: Takes overall hindrance (armor + shield) and this value penalizes the stat bonus to evasion skill by a large amount, and evasion skill by a smaller amount.
>>Parry: Overall hindrance penalizes skill bonus from weapon balance and stats, shield hindrance penalizes parry ranks.
>>Shield: Shield hindrance penalizes stat bonus to skill.
>>So I think the error here is shield should be using (overall hindrance - shield hindrance) to determine the penalty to shield skill. Its hindrance penalty is too small currently. We'll see, not in any rush to fix this just yet.
So ...
Evasion gets a bonus from stats which is heavily penalized by overall hindrance. Overall hindrance directly penalizes the evasion skill. (Highest penalty overall)
Parry gets bonus from both weapon balance and stats with the bonus being penalized by overall hindrance. Only shield hindrance directly penalizes the parry skill. (Medium penalty overall)
Shield gets a bonus from stats which only shield hindrance penalizes. There is no penalty directly to shield skill. (Lowest penalty overall)
So depending on SOI it could shield and parry can swap around but evasion will always be the highest penalized those pushing it down below parry and shield in 90% of guilds, armor configuration, and weapon being used (excluding non-thrown ranged).
Does my logic hold up?
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JWARK4
Re: Is it just me or is evasion just horrible?
07/24/2016 12:47 PM CDT
<I do have one question about stancing parry/shield only. Do you not stance any evasion when using sling/xbow/bow as well? I, like most everyone, wear a parry stick so I'm wondering how effective you are seeing parry/shield with ranged as compared to damage received if this is the case.>
Yes, I stance evasion only when using a loaded ranged weapon. That's where I get the majority of my hits from when I'm hunting. I think if I didn't use that I would barely come out with a scratch at all.
Yes, I stance evasion only when using a loaded ranged weapon. That's where I get the majority of my hits from when I'm hunting. I think if I didn't use that I would barely come out with a scratch at all.
ABSOLON
Re: Is it just me or is evasion just horrible?
07/24/2016 02:49 PM CDT
<<Yes, I stance evasion only when using a loaded ranged weapon. That's where I get the majority of my hits from when I'm hunting. I think if I didn't use that I would barely come out with a scratch at all.
Clarification, please? Evasion 100 and shield 80+? Shield 100 and evasion 80+? Evasion 100 and parry 80+? Or literally evasion 100 only and nothing for the rest of the 80+?
The only viable options out of those will be the first two, since they're the only ones that grant you a full 180% defence stance while holding a ranged weapon. (Whether loaded or unloaded doesn't matter - you hold a bow in your right hand and you can't make use of parry at all.)
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Clarification, please? Evasion 100 and shield 80+? Shield 100 and evasion 80+? Evasion 100 and parry 80+? Or literally evasion 100 only and nothing for the rest of the 80+?
The only viable options out of those will be the first two, since they're the only ones that grant you a full 180% defence stance while holding a ranged weapon. (Whether loaded or unloaded doesn't matter - you hold a bow in your right hand and you can't make use of parry at all.)
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JWARK4
Re: Is it just me or is evasion just horrible?
07/24/2016 03:54 PM CDT
<Clarification, please?>
I usually use evasion 100 and shield 88. Sometimes shield 88 and evasion 100 if I want to get shield moving more.
If I only used evasion I would die pretty fast, haha. I would never do that.
Realize you're just trying to rule that out but I mean that would be something a total noob would do.
I usually use evasion 100 and shield 88. Sometimes shield 88 and evasion 100 if I want to get shield moving more.
If I only used evasion I would die pretty fast, haha. I would never do that.
Realize you're just trying to rule that out but I mean that would be something a total noob would do.
RCHIGHT
Re: Is it just me or is evasion just horrible?
07/24/2016 06:49 PM CDT
Thanks, gotcha. Yeah, I to find that I take the most damage while using ranged with Evasion 100 / Shield 92 or vice versa. I'm not finding a significant difference so far from going parry / shield vs parry or shield / evasion yet. Probably because of my second sentence.
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ABSOLON
Re: Is it just me or is evasion just horrible?
07/24/2016 09:34 PM CDT
I wonder if it's a hidden penalty from using a loadable ranged weapon then? I use ht and lt as my only ranged on that character and never have issues, and I just spent 5 hours in combat there last night in alternating 100% evasion stances and ~100 less ranks than you with the end result of only two lowest level scratches.
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ABSOLON
Re: Is it just me or is evasion just horrible?
07/24/2016 09:36 PM CDT
Forgot to add that I've noticed I get hit more while using slings bows and crossbows on my lower characters, but had always assumed it was from lowbie penalties that hadn't been worked off yet. Sounds like its not something that gets grown out of, though.
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DERIUM
Re: Is it just me or is evasion just horrible?
07/24/2016 10:13 PM CDT
> I wonder if it's a hidden penalty from using a loadable ranged weapon then?
I was starting to think the same thing. I was playing this out on my ranger. With a loaded bow, I couldn't retreat. As soon as I shot the bow, and wore it, I could retreat without incident.
I was starting to think the same thing. I was playing this out on my ranger. With a loaded bow, I couldn't retreat. As soon as I shot the bow, and wore it, I could retreat without incident.
JWARK4
Re: Is it just me or is evasion just horrible?
07/24/2016 11:49 PM CDT
<<I wonder if it's a hidden penalty from using a loadable ranged weapon then?
I'm using a loaded ranged weapon in both tests though with the same stance since you can't do parry with it. That wouldn't be the difference.
I cycle through the same 6 weapons just with different stances.
I'm using a loaded ranged weapon in both tests though with the same stance since you can't do parry with it. That wouldn't be the difference.
I cycle through the same 6 weapons just with different stances.
ABSOLON
Re: Is it just me or is evasion just horrible?
07/25/2016 12:41 AM CDT
I honestly don't know why you're experiencing what you're experiencing, except to say that you must be doing something wrong like having your most recent defensive maneuver be parry while in an evasion/shield stance or that there's something to do with loadable ranged weapons like the last combat maneuver getting stuck and not reverting to your most recent defensive maneuver. I have ~100 less ranks than you, higher hindrance, and my base reflex of 87 (I don't buff it since my spell can't be cast in a cave) is not high enough above your buffed reflex of 84 (assuming a capped spell effect) to more than make up for those differences. Heck, I just appraised my leathers from after my hunt last night and discovered that I was hunting for 5 hours with nearly destroyed armor (0-19%) and still came out with only two scratches without ever having evasion set below 100%.
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