right now swimming/climbing is trained mostly just for the sake of ranks you need in survival, which is much the same situation as foraging was in before mining came out - useful up to where you could forage all the herbs, but not too useful for the ranks afterwards once you could find everything - kudos to kodius for the great mining system that made foraging useful!>

I'd like to see athletics <either swim/climb> make some areas "off-limits" unless you had the proper skill to get there - something similar to the only area I can think of - the area beyond corik's wall where you can only get there after doing quest as a ranger/paladin - or climbing it. That said, you can climb it at approximate 600 ranks or so.

What I'd like to see is something put in for those who have trained over 600. <in either skill since they are combining>. Where can you even train either skill at the ranks right up to the cap? (1750> i think?

Or a system that incorporates this skill to use that actually Does something, like mining does for foraging.


Thanks.

/---
Oh and last one, DR at any given time has a population of weenies that will criticize at the drop of a hat, don't take things personally it happens to everyone.
Leucius

<<I trained 600 ranks in Athletics because being able to bypass the gondola and rivers was awesome and totally worth it>> :

true this, but what do you do with it AFTER 600?

<i also have 2 survival primes that do use it to circle, i just want other uses for it besides just... for circle :-)



/---
Oh and last one, DR at any given time has a population of weenies that will criticize at the drop of a hat, don't take things personally it happens to everyone.
Leucius

><i also have 2 survival primes that do use it to circle, i just want other uses for it besides just... for circle :-)

And I want more uses for 400+ Empathy than just...for circle.

Same story, different Guild.

Kaeta Airtag

>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear

People are always wanting more areas in hunting areas. It would be nice if there were some rooms in hunting areas that took high (versus combat for the area) climbing or swimming to get to.

Now if you die though...

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You've reached the uninformative help match I haven't written yet.

Riding.

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Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance

Agreed. Then it becomes more like a hunting area whose viability is guild-biased. I really love how foraging was worked into mining. It actually has a progressive use in determining how much ore you get.

>So maybe instead of "you must have 700 ranks of climbing to get into the new hunting ground", maybe you put one of those "invisible RT" travel mechanics (like the bridge in Adan'f Ice Caves, etc) where it takes 3 minutes if you have 0 climbing skill and like 5 seconds if you have 1000 ranks.

I like this.

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Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance

I like it. Most people would howl.

Kaeta Airtag

>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear

>So maybe instead of "you must have 700 ranks of climbing to get into the new hunting ground", maybe you put one of those "invisible RT" travel mechanics (like the bridge in Adan'f Ice Caves, etc) where it takes 3 minutes if you have 0 climbing skill and like 5 seconds if you have 1000 ranks.

An idea like this is beautifully done in Ain Ghazal as well. If you have enough climbing you can climb up various objects (e.g. embrasures) to skip the 3 s RTs associated as you walk up the inclines there. So you get a much fast route if you have enough climbing but are forced to wait if you do not have enough. The climbs get progressively harder the further you get up until you start to get to some of the hardest climbs in the game, so there is a level of benefit for a wide range.

Nikpack

I agree RT should scale with skill in many siuations. An example of bad design is that no matter how high your climbing is you still have the same chance of falling from the creeper coming out of beisswurms.

A good design is the climb to Asketi's Mount. The cliff has a set height, and the distance in feet you can go up the cliff per climb is determined by your climbing ranks. So the more ranks, the fewer actual climbs needed to reach the top. When Kaxis went there years ago I want to say he needed at least 5-6 climbs or more to reach the top. Now he gets there in 2 climbs.

<<So maybe instead of "you must have 700 ranks of climbing to get into the new hunting ground", maybe you put one of those "invisible RT" travel mechanics (like the bridge in Adan'f Ice Caves, etc) where it takes 3 minutes if you have 0 climbing skill and like 5 seconds if you have 1000 ranks. So anyone could still get in, but it's a huge pain in the butt if you didn't train climbing.>>

The principle is good as long as the numbers are set correctly. Not sure 3 minutes is a huge pain in the butt though. That would totally trivialize the 1000 ranks of climbing along with the hard work and patience to get them. I know those were probably just random numbers you thought up on the spur of the moment, but 1000 is a pretty beefy amount. Not many players will ever have that much. Why bother to spend years training climbing to 1000 when I can just get where I need to be in 3 minutes and never train climbing? The downside should be more than just a passing annoyance. It should be a serious game play decision. Where the numbers are set will make or break this type of design.

Maybe ranks/50 = minutes, so if a climb would normally take 1000 ranks it would take 20 minutes if you had 0 ranks. Okay, I'll be generous and say ranks/100 = 10 minutes. Either way, it would at least get someone's attention and be an option if someone was willing to wait, but if someone doesn't want to take that long then there's always actually training the skill higher. It would increasingly cut the time down so that it isn't necessary to reach 1000 ranks or wait 10 minutes. If the alternative is to never get there because you don't have 1000 ranks, then it's still a huge leap forward. I'm always about player options.

It would also be influenced by how often one must use the skill. Only needing 1 climb into a hunting ground and another 1 climb out an hour later is a little different and can have the bar set higher than a skill that must be used constantly.

<<Then it becomes more like a hunting area whose viability is guild-biased.>>

I think this is bad too if it's prohibitive, like where only a cleric can uncurse a door and everyone else is SOL. But slanting things toward a certain skill set isn't bad at all. Guild diversity has all but vanished from DR compared to years ago, and Socharis? I think it was has said it will be high priority after 3.0

Having said all this I still like go/nogo situations in game where you either measure up or you don't.

Kaxis

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>concentrate on my journey

You are too busy concentrating on your journey to do that.

>> It should be a serious game play decision

Are you really asking for serious gameplay penalties when someone lacks 1000 ranks in a skill?

I mean, sure. It's fine when YOU have those ranks and want to feel special, but where does it end? Today it's serious penalties for those who don't have the 180th circle requirements in your primary skillset. Tomorrow, it'll be additional roundtimes for your characters when you lack the 180th requirement for another guild. In the end, everyone is suffering under additional penalties. It doesn't feel like the right direction for game-wide improvements, and heaven forbid you try to start a new character.

Just be careful when applying these wide-sweeping philosophies.

I'm not sure everyone would be a fan of one skill(Athletics) being a serious game play decision if another skill(String Instruments) must maintain that same rule of thumb :P

__
You hear the voice of Jaedren exclaim, "Look! I'm Leilond!"
You notice Jaedren come out of hiding.
Jaedren shimmers out of sight.

<<Are you really asking for serious gameplay penalties when someone lacks 1000 ranks in a skill?>>

You're cramming way too many eggs in that basket. There wouldn't be room in game for more than a very few climbs of 1000, and they might not all lead to come critically important spot that everyone needs to be at. That would be bad.

But even if they led to HL hunting grounds, what difference would it make as long as those with lower climbing skill can go to other hunting grounds and learn as well? This wouldn't penalize anyone. No one said every climb in DR should be 1000. I think my second post was a decent compromise.

But yes, in general I do think that people who have put in more time and work into certain skills should get more rewards out of them than people who refuse to put that much effort into them.

<<Just be careful when applying these wide-sweeping philosophies.>>

Including that philosophy? :) There's so many things GMs have to balance. It would be awesome if GMs made a 1000 Performing skill req for some spots but it would be so limited in that hardly anyone, even lore primes, have that much skill. I'm guessing more people have 500-600 climbing than have 500-600 Strings. That has to be considered as well.

<<I'm not sure everyone would be a fan of one skill(Athletics) being a serious game play decision if another skill(String Instruments) must maintain that same rule of thumb :P>>

Heh Good bard lore-prime example. I remember you used it before.

Okay, I'll bite. Maybe there should be an HL hunting ground that requires Mechanical Lore Legend skill to manipulate a gizmo to get inside. Follow me then, Mr. Lore Prime Heh

Kaxis

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>concentrate on my journey

You are too busy concentrating on your journey to do that.

>>I'd argue this would be a poor decision for the same reasons as above. I mean, how many people use those special entry or requirement hunting areas today. Clerics are the best example. How many hunt in the areas requiring PFE (available via MD objects) or uncurse? Maybe skills would be less restrictive, but developing a new hunting area only for a small subsection of the community doesn't feel like a good use of resources.

I think the exact opposite to be honest. I think its an excellent use of resources because the people who've spent that much effort to train a skill to that extent are going to appreciate the area and be more inclined to use it than the .progressquest hunting area somewhere else. I'm not saying it has to be every area, or even a significant percentage of them, but by including one of them at each tier of hunting you're basically rewarding people for their effort.

Stop catering to the masses just because they're the masses, it breeds laziness and a sense of entitlement that I think is basically dumbing down the game and making it much more bland than it deserves to be.

Specifically for Athletics, incorporate it into Lumberjacking. You would have to climb trees to get more quality wood from them, rather than chopping the whole thing down and chance many limbs breaking upon impact. The higher the athleticism, the higher in the tree you can go, the higher the quality/quantity of wood. Or even incorporate it into Panning, swimming out to deeper places in the rivers or streams, being able to hold your breath to get the sweet spots at the riverbed.

I'm not sure if appraisal does anything for prospecting besides identifying the materials to be mined. Last I remember, Kodius at one point mentioned other tools for mining (ie structural bracing, the ability to dig out of cave-ins, etc), maybe appraisal will be worked into mining expansion when it happens. Perhaps appraisal will be more like perception, the catch-all skill for lore. After all, appraisal is used in analyzing materials, tools, values, weights, prospecting, summing up creatures, checking cambrinth levels, and many more things. Honestly, appraisal has more uses than most weapon skills if you think about it. It just doesn't scale.

But you're right, good skill design doesn't test for just binary pass/fail checks. It should be qualitative throughout, with binary checks added in. This gives a skill consistent usefulness and breakpoints to strive for. Isn't that Phase 2 of DR 3.0? I know part of Phase 1 is supposed to be exanding/combining certain skills to better organize them for further development (feats, etc).