Skinning (with arrange x 5) seems to teach too much and boxes seem to teach too little. Especially if you consider the ubiquity of creatures to skin and the time it takes to acquire boxes and the risk of disarming boxes, the current exp calculations seem way off.
My skinning exp would be way ahead of my box skills if I didn't soft cap skinning while training all weapons.
DRSCOTT
BADGOPHER
Re: Skinning exp vs Locksmithing exp
07/29/2014 03:57 PM CDT
I haven't found locksmithing exp to be terrible; how are you opening boxes?
It might just be because I've become so used to 'id, disarm, analyze, harvest, id, analyze, pick' for each trap.
It might just be because I've become so used to 'id, disarm, analyze, harvest, id, analyze, pick' for each trap.
ABSOLON
Re: Skinning exp vs Locksmithing exp
07/29/2014 04:32 PM CDT
The individual experience from a single box isn't necessarily bad... but it greatly hinges on its difficulty and the frequency you can get them.
I've found that I'm able to keep up lockpicking with my combats using ID/disarm/analyze/harvest/id/analyze/pick, but only barely. Boxes that drop have to be disarmed/picked carefully so they teach a lot per box, but when you only get 4-5 boxes in a hunting session (which might lock locksmithing if you're lucky with the number of traps and locks and even then only if lockpicking is underleveled so that you have to use careful) then it is hard to have it keep up without supplementing with classes, box donations, or backtraining. If your lockpicking is at level where you need to open them normal or quick then you need a lot more than just 4 or 5 in order to keep up, and that just doesn't happen on most box-dropping creatures.
Skinning on the other hand trains itself without even needing to think about it, and often to ranks surpassing weapons simply because skinning experience is always available immediately and with every kill and with a guaranteed 5 arranges + skin worth of experience.
To be fair, both of these skills have been impacted by the generally slower kill rate of 3.0, however, skinning has taken less of a hit because it is still available with every single kill. The randomness of box drops really shows when the sample size is so much smaller.
My suggestion would be to increase the chance for more locks and traps per box, especially for critters that have lower box frequencies if that's possible. That way you don't have to alter the loot balance, but still provide more experience for locksmithing. Heck, even just making it a guaranteed 3 locks and 3 traps per box wouldn't be going overboard in my opinion.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
I've found that I'm able to keep up lockpicking with my combats using ID/disarm/analyze/harvest/id/analyze/pick, but only barely. Boxes that drop have to be disarmed/picked carefully so they teach a lot per box, but when you only get 4-5 boxes in a hunting session (which might lock locksmithing if you're lucky with the number of traps and locks and even then only if lockpicking is underleveled so that you have to use careful) then it is hard to have it keep up without supplementing with classes, box donations, or backtraining. If your lockpicking is at level where you need to open them normal or quick then you need a lot more than just 4 or 5 in order to keep up, and that just doesn't happen on most box-dropping creatures.
Skinning on the other hand trains itself without even needing to think about it, and often to ranks surpassing weapons simply because skinning experience is always available immediately and with every kill and with a guaranteed 5 arranges + skin worth of experience.
To be fair, both of these skills have been impacted by the generally slower kill rate of 3.0, however, skinning has taken less of a hit because it is still available with every single kill. The randomness of box drops really shows when the sample size is so much smaller.
My suggestion would be to increase the chance for more locks and traps per box, especially for critters that have lower box frequencies if that's possible. That way you don't have to alter the loot balance, but still provide more experience for locksmithing. Heck, even just making it a guaranteed 3 locks and 3 traps per box wouldn't be going overboard in my opinion.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
ABSOLON
Re: Skinning exp vs Locksmithing exp
07/29/2014 04:40 PM CDT
For reference to give an idea of where I'm coming from:
Aside from short stints in ship rats, hogs, and eels, I have only hunted box dropping creatures or at least areas with at least one box dropping creature. I currently fight giant blight ogres and can open their boxes with buffs mostly using careful with the occasional normal, but they're definitely on the edge of my ability.
Skinning: 233 34.98%
Locksmithing: 130 27.46%
Shield Usage: 203 36%
Light Armour: 212 26%
Defending: 209 77%
Parry Ability: 200 43.75%
Evasion: 236 85.02%
Brawling: 178 42.19% (highest weapon)
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Aside from short stints in ship rats, hogs, and eels, I have only hunted box dropping creatures or at least areas with at least one box dropping creature. I currently fight giant blight ogres and can open their boxes with buffs mostly using careful with the occasional normal, but they're definitely on the edge of my ability.
Skinning: 233 34.98%
Locksmithing: 130 27.46%
Shield Usage: 203 36%
Light Armour: 212 26%
Defending: 209 77%
Parry Ability: 200 43.75%
Evasion: 236 85.02%
Brawling: 178 42.19% (highest weapon)
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
BADGOPHER
Re: Skinning exp vs Locksmithing exp
07/29/2014 08:14 PM CDT
That's bizarre to me. My loadout, below, has a much better spread. But that's for a thief. I don't train boxes on anything else. Note that brawling also happened to be my highest weapon, which is amusing to me.
My progression had me hunting dual drop as much as possible, but as you said, skinning is so easy to train, when a choice had to be made, I went to box hunting critters. What's really odd to me is that despite having skills within 10% of each other, my box skills are 50% higher than yours. I did spend a lot of time on Ratha, first sprites, then swain.
Skinning: 226
Locksmithing: 203
Shield: 200
Light armor: 208
Parry: 194
Evasion: 228
Brawling: 180
My progression had me hunting dual drop as much as possible, but as you said, skinning is so easy to train, when a choice had to be made, I went to box hunting critters. What's really odd to me is that despite having skills within 10% of each other, my box skills are 50% higher than yours. I did spend a lot of time on Ratha, first sprites, then swain.
Skinning: 226
Locksmithing: 203
Shield: 200
Light armor: 208
Parry: 194
Evasion: 228
Brawling: 180
CARDINALE01
Re: Skinning exp vs Locksmithing exp
07/29/2014 08:59 PM CDT
I've done much the same as you on my Paladin(we're even both in Giant Blight Ogres... I even think we hunted together in the middle room the other night) and my locksmithing and skinning aren't that far apart. I forget the exact ladder I went, but I'm pretty sure it was something like Goblins(brief stop in Grass Eels to fill the gap) --> Faenrae Reavers --> Dusk Ogres --> Granite Gargoyles --> Brief stint in Quartz Gargoyles to fill a gap --> Orc Scouts(spawn with vicious warcats, for skinning) --> Giant Blight Ogres and my skinning and locksmithing are pretty well within each other's range(though being survival tert they're both well below my armor).
Locksmithing: 169
Skinning: 180
Shield Usage: 257
Plate Armor: 254
Defending: 239
Parry Ability: 212
Evasion: 207
Large Edged: 209
Locksmithing: 169
Skinning: 180
Shield Usage: 257
Plate Armor: 254
Defending: 239
Parry Ability: 212
Evasion: 207
Large Edged: 209
ABSOLON
Re: Skinning exp vs Locksmithing exp
07/29/2014 10:36 PM CDT
My progression was rats, hogs, goblins, eels, rock trolls, granite gargoyles, snow goblins, swamp trolls/peccaries, blight ogres. Trolls did not drop a lot of boxes and I spent a decent time there so that likely accounts for some of the difference. I really wish there were more options for decent box critters. I moved to trolls much earlier than I otherwise would have because of the festival, otherwise I would have stayed on the islands.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
ABSOLON
Re: Skinning exp vs Locksmithing exp
07/29/2014 10:45 PM CDT
Oops, I forgot about atik'et between rock trolls and gargoyles.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
ABSOLON
Re: Skinning exp vs Locksmithing exp
07/29/2014 11:17 PM CDT
Triple post... Yay!
I forgot about TM, so technically that's my highest weapon at about 215 ranks.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
I forgot about TM, so technically that's my highest weapon at about 215 ranks.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
IVJAMES
Re: Skinning exp vs Locksmithing exp
07/30/2014 12:01 AM CDT
I don't think this is a bug because it seems to be fairly well known:
If you only get a few boxes durning a hunt disarm all the boxes first. Put your armor back on. Use a stout lockpick and pick your boxes quick without ident. The failed picks teach locks even more quicly than disarm and picking normally. Of course you don't get very rich doing this but you do gain good experience.
ABSOLON
Re: Skinning exp vs Locksmithing exp
07/30/2014 02:43 AM CDT
<<If you only get a few boxes durning a hunt disarm all the boxes first. Put your armor back on. Use a stout lockpick and pick your boxes quick without ident. The failed picks teach locks even more quicly than disarm and picking normally. Of course you don't get very rich doing this but you do gain good experience.
Hmm, I thought that only worked with over-level boxes that someone else disarmed for you. I'll have to give that a try.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Hmm, I thought that only worked with over-level boxes that someone else disarmed for you. I'll have to give that a try.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
DRSCOTT
Re: Skinning exp vs Locksmithing exp
07/30/2014 10:17 AM CDT
>If you only get a few boxes durning a hunt disarm all the boxes first. Put your armor back on. Use a stout lockpick and pick your boxes quick without ident. The failed picks teach locks even more quicly than disarm and picking normally. Of course you don't get very rich doing this but you do gain good experience.
Not a bug, but perhaps an exp calculation teaching a bit too generously for failure. I'll have to experiment with that.
I had forgotten about disarm analyze and harvest - I remembered them as thief only for some reason. Thanks for the suggestion.
I find myself in sand sprites right now where the box drop rate is so much higher. Getting things to "feel right" must be difficult with so many variables. I'd love to see a bit more standardization on box drop rate though, personally.
Boxes do seem a lot more rewarding financially than I remember. I guess I'll live with the exp rate. I just think it's telling how few people have Locksmithing at level vs Skinning.
Not a bug, but perhaps an exp calculation teaching a bit too generously for failure. I'll have to experiment with that.
I had forgotten about disarm analyze and harvest - I remembered them as thief only for some reason. Thanks for the suggestion.
I find myself in sand sprites right now where the box drop rate is so much higher. Getting things to "feel right" must be difficult with so many variables. I'd love to see a bit more standardization on box drop rate though, personally.
Boxes do seem a lot more rewarding financially than I remember. I guess I'll live with the exp rate. I just think it's telling how few people have Locksmithing at level vs Skinning.
OLSONM6
Re: Skinning exp vs Locksmithing exp
07/30/2014 11:11 AM CDT
>I just think it's telling how few people have Locksmithing at level vs Skinning.
The other thing is that locksmithing is an out-of-combat skill. It's easy to train skinning along with all your other combats. To train locksmithing you have to stop hunting and pop boxes. You're not getting a constant stream of experience over time like you are with skinning in a long hunt. You can only pop so many boxes before your at mind lock, and then you'll probably go back to hunting until it drains.
Don't forget to vote:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
The other thing is that locksmithing is an out-of-combat skill. It's easy to train skinning along with all your other combats. To train locksmithing you have to stop hunting and pop boxes. You're not getting a constant stream of experience over time like you are with skinning in a long hunt. You can only pop so many boxes before your at mind lock, and then you'll probably go back to hunting until it drains.
Don't forget to vote:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
NITUKI
Re: Skinning exp vs Locksmithing exp
07/30/2014 12:47 PM CDT
>I just think it's telling how few people have Locksmithing at level vs Skinning.
I think the main reason for that isn't experience as much as it is the risk vs reward situation (especially prior to the recent change that greatly increased the potential reward). Skinning has no additional risk once the creature is dead other than the potential for losing the skin by "botching the roll" where boxes can kill you instantly if you get an unlucky roll. Considering most people pick boxes after combat, you are risking losing tons of time and experience if you take that risk for the chance of a potential payout. I've been backtraining locksmithing on my necromancer for a while now and every time I get an unlucky teleport trap or something that instantly kills me, I really have to question why I continue when I can loot treasure or find skinnable mobs for payouts. It comes to taking incredible risk (even with at level boxes) for the chance at a slightly increased reward and few people feel like taking that gamble. Thankfully (or regretfully) I'm stubborn and after a little while I get back to picking boxes until the next time I get a bad roll and die instantly and take a break again.
I think the main reason for that isn't experience as much as it is the risk vs reward situation (especially prior to the recent change that greatly increased the potential reward). Skinning has no additional risk once the creature is dead other than the potential for losing the skin by "botching the roll" where boxes can kill you instantly if you get an unlucky roll. Considering most people pick boxes after combat, you are risking losing tons of time and experience if you take that risk for the chance of a potential payout. I've been backtraining locksmithing on my necromancer for a while now and every time I get an unlucky teleport trap or something that instantly kills me, I really have to question why I continue when I can loot treasure or find skinnable mobs for payouts. It comes to taking incredible risk (even with at level boxes) for the chance at a slightly increased reward and few people feel like taking that gamble. Thankfully (or regretfully) I'm stubborn and after a little while I get back to picking boxes until the next time I get a bad roll and die instantly and take a break again.
BADGOPHER
Re: Skinning exp vs Locksmithing exp
07/30/2014 01:15 PM CDT
>I just think it's telling how few people have Locksmithing at level vs Skinning.
As others said, it's not as telling as you think.
Boxes are, frankly, a huge pain. It's an obnoxious and annoying system. You can only carry 10-20 at a time (I know, special containers, but that's like using tyrium as the standard metal), and you can only open them, realistically, at the end of your session. Plus it takes 30-200 seconds per box, requires external tools (picks) which cost money, and they weight a ton.
Payoff per unit time is low, compared to just running your script for another 10 minutes. For a non-thief, or RP reasons, boxes suck.
As others said, it's not as telling as you think.
Boxes are, frankly, a huge pain. It's an obnoxious and annoying system. You can only carry 10-20 at a time (I know, special containers, but that's like using tyrium as the standard metal), and you can only open them, realistically, at the end of your session. Plus it takes 30-200 seconds per box, requires external tools (picks) which cost money, and they weight a ton.
Payoff per unit time is low, compared to just running your script for another 10 minutes. For a non-thief, or RP reasons, boxes suck.
GNIKOLEYCHUK
Re: Skinning exp vs Locksmithing exp
07/30/2014 01:52 PM CDT
>>>> Considering most people pick boxes after combat, you are risking losing tons of time and experience if you take that risk for the chance of a potential payout
I used to mitigate this somewhat by storing the boxes and opening them when I had an empty mind state before starting other training. That strategy has its downsides as well, of course.
I used to mitigate this somewhat by storing the boxes and opening them when I had an empty mind state before starting other training. That strategy has its downsides as well, of course.
GNIKOLEYCHUK
Re: Skinning exp vs Locksmithing exp
07/30/2014 01:52 PM CDT
>>>> Considering most people pick boxes after combat, you are risking losing tons of time and experience if you take that risk for the chance of a potential payout
I used to mitigate this somewhat by storing the boxes and opening them when I had an empty mind state before starting other training. That strategy has its downsides as well, of course.
I used to mitigate this somewhat by storing the boxes and opening them when I had an empty mind state before starting other training. That strategy has its downsides as well, of course.
HEATHCHRISTINE
Re: Skinning exp vs Locksmithing exp
08/03/2014 02:48 PM CDT
I've tended to find I am nearly full or occasionally have extra boxes that I hold to finish popping later because I've hit mindlocked after one box-carrying hunting trip.
I currently hunt a skinnable creature for primary and secondary weapon, and a box creature for the next couple. Locks/Skin is 630/694 respectively. These are boxes I typically disarm quick/normal on.
Jalika
