Hopefully when the new Magic GM reveals themself, a rational discussion about how unfair stat based contests are can occur and magic can finally be fixed.

Lots more stuff coming 'Soon'!

http://www.zairius.com

Supreme Bunny Overlord Zairius

Train your WvW stats. A lot of MMs pump mentals so I wouldn't be surprised if their stats stacked up well against yours.


-Vision et al

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Also, I can shoot bees.

Vision's Tanning Experiments: http://www.tanning.tribehawk.com/

It'd be nice if circle, through concentration, was an indirect factor, yes.

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M

Hanryu on the treasure System:
By the way I've got 20 puce dresses for sale :P

<<that would be nice... maybe concentration should be part of the equation because there is NO way anyone 30+ circles under me should be able to MB me.

I am going to have to go with what everyone else is saying.

Who cares how many circles lower the person is compared to you? It is not used in the calculations. I have yet to find a moon mage 30+ circles lower than me who can hit me with a max prep MB (70th circle and lower for those who want to test it).

Would it be nice if concentration factored into spell v stat contests? You bet! I would love to see that as well.

Boost your discipline for the quickest results. Boost intell if you want some added protection with a nice boost to exp pool size. Boost charisma if it happens to be half the cost to raise than your discipline (should probably be a third of the cost but you have to start somewhere).


Trebber

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Your mech lore ranks could care less if the paper is blue or plain.

GM XXXXXX "Well, we can't please everyone."

You say, "True, but that is no reason not to try."

No, it doesn't make sense.
If you are thinking of concentration in that sense then it should play a role in every single action possible in the game, not just one that shares similar cosmetic language. Besides, concentration is already partially dependant on the discipline stat, they arn't going to make it check against Discipline twice.


______________________________________
Talian slashes the really ugly pathian statue to dust.

As others have pointed out, circle isn't a terribly relevant factor. If you have the relevant stats "thirty circles lower" than the caster for any of these spells, you will have difficulty with resisting the spell.

Whether or not this is a good model for how spells should function can be debated, but it's an issue outside of and bigger than this specific spell.

-Armifer
"We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far." H.P. Lovecraft

<<As others have pointed out, circle isn't a terribly relevant factor. If you have the relevant stats "thirty circles lower" than the caster for any of these spells, you will have difficulty with resisting the spell.>>

The problem isn't that a moon mage who is senior by 30 circles can MB, it's that a moon mage who is junior by 30 circles can. But as you correctly point out, it's a function of how all spell vs. stat abilities work.

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Marksman Ahmir Nam'al

"Is glas iad na cnoic i bhfad uainn."
-Distant hills look green.

>>I thought this was a skill--based game, not a circle-based game, so why should something circle-related count in any equations?<<

Heh.. you know. That would be a good argument. Except that there is no anti MB skill. You could say the exact same thing except.. I thought this was a skill-based game, not a stat based game. Concentration is just as arbitrary as discipline and intelligence.

-Wighten

>>By that logic why should stats?

I agree, stats shouldn't either, and it's not something I particularly like. But as Wighten pointed out there's no "anti-magic" skill, so we're a bit stuck there. However, since stats can be trained by TDPs which are gained through skill advancement and not exclusively through circling, I think it's the best solution (although certainly not a perfect one).

>>What about including the scholarship skill for the defender calcs?

That's actually not a bad idea. Maybe also evasion or perception?


~Thilan

<<Who cares how many circles lower the person is compared to you? It is not used in the calculations. I have yet to find a moon mage 30+ circles lower than me who can hit me with a max prep MB (70th circle and lower for those who want to test it).>>

<<As others have pointed out, circle isn't a terribly relevant factor. If you have the relevant stats "thirty circles lower" than the caster for any of these spells, you will have difficulty with resisting the spell.>>


I think i may be a little confused on what you two consider ideal stats to resist an MB. I've done quite a bit of testing with MB myself( a year or so ago but i dont think much has changed) results are on the moon mage boards somewhere i dont remember, was a long time ago. anyway I had a warmage and moon mage in tf. warmage was 40 circles over the moon mage. warmage had 30 more disc and 15 or so charisma than mm, but mm had 30 or so more intel that wm. Of course the moonmage was able to successfully mb the WM. So shed some light on how much more of what stat is ideal to resist a MB...

>thats right... because they come from CIRCLES.

Not necessarily. You get TDPs from skills also. In fact, at higher levels, your main source of TDPs is ranking skills. Circling is a pittance compared to the amount I can get just from training.

-Vision et al

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Also, I can shoot bees.

Vision's Tanning Experiments: http://www.tanning.tribehawk.com/

>there isnt a skill to help resist mental attacks

Hiding. Haha, couldn't resist. ;)

Seriously though, this is how I see it. If some MM 30 circles lower than me has better stats in the pertinent areas than I do, it means either:
A) Their other stats suck
B) They trained their skills hella hard to get the TDPs to pump those stats that high
C) I didn't train my stats high enough

Which leads to two ways of a fight panning out:
A) They have like 6 stamina, so I hide, shoot face, they die
B) They trained harder/smarter than I did and deserve to MB me

The point I'm getting at is that higher circle does not necessarily equate to better. Just because someone's lower circle than you does not mean you should automatically be immune to their attacks/spells/abilities/whathaveyou.

-Vision et al

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Also, I can shoot bees.

Vision's Tanning Experiments: http://www.tanning.tribehawk.com/

>>It should also play a part in dodging weapons because there is no way anyone 30+ circles under me should be able to hit me with a weapon.<<

Once again. Complete apples and oranges. There are SKILLS for that kind of combat. It would be wonderful if there were 4-5 different types of magic defense, but there aren't, and it's too late to implement that kind of system. That leaves stats and circle. Those are the only possible defenses. For the first 50 circles or so... TDP's and circles are almost interchangeable. Only at that point do TDPs start becoming primarily gained through skills. No one is suggesting that circle become the only defense for magic. But I don't see it as a bad thing if it becomes part of the equation.

Even if things stay the way they are currently. I think the check needs to be ... well fixed. The system of "well just pump more mana into it" needs to go away. You can't take a little more time to aim your blade to get a better strike on someone with more evasion. I think the actual check needs to be made independant of mana. Amount of mana can then determine the degree of success, but it shouldn't allow you to overcome a greater opponent.

-Wighten

>>someone who's reached higher circles compared to others -must- have achieved -some- type of mental accomplishment. Be that willpower, confidence, or concentration.

They have achieved a greater degree of concentration.

MB is a Will versus WIll spell, however, not a some type of mental accomplishment versus some type of mental accomplishment spell.

<<Seriously though, this is how I see it. If some MM 30 circles lower than me has better stats in the pertinent areas than I do, it means either:>>

any moonmages with less than 40 disc 30 intel and 20 charisma that would like to some testing? i'm quite positive say a moonmage with 20 disc intel and charisma could MB me as long as they had enough pm to pump a bit of mana into it.

<<It should also play a part in dodging weapons because there is no way anyone 30+ circles under me should be able to hit me with a weapon.>>

evasion. . . thx


<<Even if things stay the way they are currently. I think the check needs to be ... well fixed. >>

agreed. if a moonmage has leet mentals he deserves to MB me(as much as i hate the spell is) its just dumb to be slept by someone that you completely outclass, yes including mentals.

<< a lot of MMs pump mentals so I wouldn't be surprised if their stats stacked up well against yours.

My mentals are comparable if not better than most characters 20 circles above me.

<<I've spent quite some time trying on moon mages 30+ circles on me, it never worked.>>

A moon mage 30+ circles ahead of you probably outclasses your mental stats by a ridiculous amount, enough to make up for the skew inherent to the contest. The problem is that even when the stats of the caster and the target are equal the contest favors toward the caster. Even when the target has somewhat higher mentals than the caster, the contest favors toward the caster. This is a problem with every stat vs. stat contest in the game, not just one class or one guild or one spell.

Almost wish Mors would make a comeback in this thread, and post one of his tests on the subject.

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Marksman Ahmir Nam'al

"Is glas iad na cnoic i bhfad uainn."
-Distant hills look green.

>>The problem is that even when the stats of the caster and the target are equal the contest favors toward the caster

Is'nt that how 90+% of DR is set up, when stats and skills are close, the offensive wins.


>touch master
You gingerly touch a gaunt shadow master. The only good master is a dead master!

You know, MB seems pretty well designed for PvE. Its too bad balancing for PvP is so tough. I watch MMs trying to kill things using MB and it seems balanced. It takes them two hits to sleep it, it uses a reasonable amount of mana, it's not very quick. Do we really want to break the PvE game just so a few of us can PvP?

Every single player in Plat PvPs at most one time a month, yet hunts monsters the other 29 days. Would it make sense to drastically change something thats only going to balance it 1/30th of the time, and possibly break things the other 29.

Furthermore I think the real issue is that DR isn't designed for PvP. The MMs here in Plat who DO PvP don't even use MB. They could one hit kill anyone in the land with burn. Ok so thats been removed so now they use CRS. WMs we use CL, barbs use roar + bow, rangers drop trees on things, bards resolve + bow, Trader die, and Empaths cry, oh and thieves BS + poison and Paladins Halt + chop to death while clerics use one of their new TM vs living uber spells doom :pant: The point is that once MB is "fixed" there is still 1001 other things that need to be balanced for PvP. I just fail to see the point anymore in wasting GM time balancing a system that can't possibly ever be balanced. Get a ilheaneu's shield brooch, or hide, or shoot first, or ... don't get into fights you can't handle :P

Granted I think when there is a 30 circle difference some questions might be raised as to the spell's power. Yet I see mages trying to use MB on things like Dobeks when they have 35 intel and 40 disc and have a decently difficult time doing it, and I shake my head. The game is really balanced when creatures are involved. They just flat out have better stats than players. So, unless we see Creatures 2.0 come out I don't see PvP ever being in line with PvE.

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http://www.drplat.com - The DragonRealms Platinum Community Website!!

Quote of the moment >> "If you die in an elevator, be sure to push the Up button."
-- Sam Levenson

<<You know, MB seems pretty well designed for PvE. Its too bad balancing for PvP is so tough. I watch MMs trying to kill things using MB and it seems balanced. It takes them two hits to sleep it, it uses a reasonable amount of mana, it's not very quick. Do we really want to break the PvE game just so a few of us can PvP?>>

A better solution would be to fix the contests so that they can fix the creatures so that they can fix the spells.

This is what's wrong with spell vs. stamina, for instance--all the creatures in DR have ridiculous amounts of stamina to make up for the ridiculous amounts of damage players do at higher levels. For this reason, SvS spells have to skew a great deal toward the caster, because they're designed for PvE. But Ssra is bringing the damage model in line, which will allow the creatures' stamina to be brought in line, which will allow the SvS contest to be brought in line.

Better to figure out the root cause of the disparity between players and creatures and eliminate that, for all the contests.

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Marksman Ahmir Nam'al

"Is glas iad na cnoic i bhfad uainn."
-Distant hills look green.