Previous
<<The important fact left out here is that they were completely untargetted casts. Targetting plays a MUCH bigger role than merely boosting effective TM ranks when it comes to breaking through defensive spells.>>
yes but a 31 mana snap fire shard(actually 4 31 prep fire shards) did less damage to the defender with sod and shear up that a 1 prep fire shard did without the barriers on... that is the main point.
LINKZY
WILTONQU
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/02/2004 11:18 PM CDT
I went ahead and took the spell Smegul and i have to say you ain't missing nothing by not having it. It gives the messaging but it might give a minus one rank to offensive incoming target spells at best but even it does that I can't tell it. the spell is fluff, just one of them things that will get worked on some day.....
Just A Cleric
Just A Cleric
TERKOWITZM
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/02/2004 11:24 PM CDT
<ponders>
Just as an aside here, since when is the max prep on FS 31? It's 36 on runestones and using a scroll.
- Smeg
Smegul says, "Heh."
Just as an aside here, since when is the max prep on FS 31? It's 36 on runestones and using a scroll.
- Smeg
Smegul says, "Heh."
LORDLOL
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/02/2004 11:35 PM CDT
>yes but a 31 mana snap fire shard(actually 4 31 prep fire shards) did less damage to the defender with sod and shear up that a 1 prep fire shard did without the barriers on...
In related news, a 1 mana FS did more damage to someone with 900 hiding and 0 evasion, than a 9,000 mana one did after they typed 'hide'. It's a true story.
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
In related news, a 1 mana FS did more damage to someone with 900 hiding and 0 evasion, than a 9,000 mana one did after they typed 'hide'. It's a true story.
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
LINKZY
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/03/2004 12:03 AM CDT
<<In related news, a 1 mana FS did more damage to someone with 900 hiding and 0 evasion, than a 9,000 mana one did after they typed 'hide'. It's a true story.>>
i must have missed it. but what is the point of comparing hiding as a defense to sod and shear again?
i must have missed it. but what is the point of comparing hiding as a defense to sod and shear again?
MORS-INCARNATUS
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/03/2004 12:56 AM CDT
<<Just as an aside here, since when is the max prep on FS 31? It's 36 on runestones and using a scroll.>>
The cap on FS is 31 for a warmage. Nonguilded spells typically require more mana for the same effects (For example, during the first big war in TF, I noticed whenever I was running Maliase that she needed to hold considerably more mana than an MM needs to to maintain the spell (4).
<<yes but a 31 mana snap fire shard(actually 4 31 prep fire shards) did less damage to the defender with sod and shear up that a 1 prep fire shard did without the barriers on... that is the main point. >>
Honestly, from what I've seen, actually TARGETTING seems to be the single most important factor in defeating barriers - considerably more important than mana or skill. This seems to be by design, and the same tends to hold true Vs. BMR as well.
Mors blows through Memnoch's SOD/Shear with 15 mana casts, even (smallest I bothered to test, I was getting sick of dragging myself to the hospital), as long as they're targetted. Even stanced at 0 evasion, a pretty small AC is more than enough to completely block memnoch's DO if snapcast as well - it takes much much more if fully targetted.
My theory is this:
I'm sure most of the people understand the concept of TM spells (spell pattern forms at the caster, a seperate targetting pattern extends to the target). I think the TARGET verb does two things...First of all, like aiming a ranged weapon, it increases the effective ranks of TM used when calculating hit/miss. In a situation where some form of resistance (like a barrier or MR) isn't a big deal, and TM considerably overwhelms the targets evasion, whatever percentage of your TM is used in a snap cast (75? I forget the exact numbers) is typically enough. However, I think it also has a secondary effect of 'stabilizing' the targetting pattern - think of it as pumping mana into a non-TM spell to beat resistance. This doesn't increase the effective TM ranks beyond, say, what aiming with a bow would in terms of determining a hit/miss where significant resistance is NOT involved, but it has a significant impact where there is some form of resistance involved.
It would seem to make sense - for a non-TM spell, the spell pattern itself is what's resisted. You increase the strength of a spell pattern by pumping more mana into it. In the case of TM, however, the spell pattern is already formed - I dont think more mana in this case has a huge impact (some, but not a lot) on defeating resistance - but the targetting pattern is what's resisted.
In short, since it's the spell pattern that's resisted when you cast a non-TM spell, you have to strengthen it to help defeat the resistance.
In the case of TM, it's the targetting pattern that's resisted...likewise, that's the portion of the spell you have to strengthen, and you do that by targetting, not by increasing mana.
The cap on FS is 31 for a warmage. Nonguilded spells typically require more mana for the same effects (For example, during the first big war in TF, I noticed whenever I was running Maliase that she needed to hold considerably more mana than an MM needs to to maintain the spell (4).
<<yes but a 31 mana snap fire shard(actually 4 31 prep fire shards) did less damage to the defender with sod and shear up that a 1 prep fire shard did without the barriers on... that is the main point. >>
Honestly, from what I've seen, actually TARGETTING seems to be the single most important factor in defeating barriers - considerably more important than mana or skill. This seems to be by design, and the same tends to hold true Vs. BMR as well.
Mors blows through Memnoch's SOD/Shear with 15 mana casts, even (smallest I bothered to test, I was getting sick of dragging myself to the hospital), as long as they're targetted. Even stanced at 0 evasion, a pretty small AC is more than enough to completely block memnoch's DO if snapcast as well - it takes much much more if fully targetted.
My theory is this:
I'm sure most of the people understand the concept of TM spells (spell pattern forms at the caster, a seperate targetting pattern extends to the target). I think the TARGET verb does two things...First of all, like aiming a ranged weapon, it increases the effective ranks of TM used when calculating hit/miss. In a situation where some form of resistance (like a barrier or MR) isn't a big deal, and TM considerably overwhelms the targets evasion, whatever percentage of your TM is used in a snap cast (75? I forget the exact numbers) is typically enough. However, I think it also has a secondary effect of 'stabilizing' the targetting pattern - think of it as pumping mana into a non-TM spell to beat resistance. This doesn't increase the effective TM ranks beyond, say, what aiming with a bow would in terms of determining a hit/miss where significant resistance is NOT involved, but it has a significant impact where there is some form of resistance involved.
It would seem to make sense - for a non-TM spell, the spell pattern itself is what's resisted. You increase the strength of a spell pattern by pumping more mana into it. In the case of TM, however, the spell pattern is already formed - I dont think more mana in this case has a huge impact (some, but not a lot) on defeating resistance - but the targetting pattern is what's resisted.
In short, since it's the spell pattern that's resisted when you cast a non-TM spell, you have to strengthen it to help defeat the resistance.
In the case of TM, it's the targetting pattern that's resisted...likewise, that's the portion of the spell you have to strengthen, and you do that by targetting, not by increasing mana.
SINARV
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/03/2004 01:35 AM CDT
<<i must have missed it. but what is the point of comparing hiding as a defense to sod and shear again?>>
Because they function on the same principle: Combat abilities aren't (and shouldn't be) the only things that can defeat other combat abilities.
<<In the case of TM, it's the targetting pattern that's resisted...likewise, that's the portion of the spell you have to strengthen, and you do that by targetting, not by increasing mana.>>
That's an interesting way of looking at it, one that makes sense. This begs the question, shouldn't TM spells be targeted? If you don't target them, don't expect them to be very effective.
~Vraniss~
Knowing silence is
the best argument against
those who know you not.
"How do you shoot the devil in the back?
What if you miss?"
Because they function on the same principle: Combat abilities aren't (and shouldn't be) the only things that can defeat other combat abilities.
<<In the case of TM, it's the targetting pattern that's resisted...likewise, that's the portion of the spell you have to strengthen, and you do that by targetting, not by increasing mana.>>
That's an interesting way of looking at it, one that makes sense. This begs the question, shouldn't TM spells be targeted? If you don't target them, don't expect them to be very effective.
~Vraniss~
Knowing silence is
the best argument against
those who know you not.
"How do you shoot the devil in the back?
What if you miss?"
LINKZY
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/03/2004 01:44 AM CDT
<<shouldn't TM spells be targeted? If you don't target them, don't expect them to be very effective.>>
as you saw in my test i destroyed the target with a 1 prep fire shard snap. so dont tell me tm spells arent effective without targetting them.
LORDLOL
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/03/2004 02:32 AM CDT
>Mors blows through Memnoch's SOD/Shear with 15 mana casts, even (smallest I bothered to test, I was getting sick of dragging myself to the hospital), as long as they're targetted.
Link = pwnzd.
All of this whining and you can overcome 90 mana worth of barrier spells in a targetted 15 mana cast. You were right, the equations do need re-examined, hopefully Shear will be more potent against targeted spells in the future.
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
Link = pwnzd.
All of this whining and you can overcome 90 mana worth of barrier spells in a targetted 15 mana cast. You were right, the equations do need re-examined, hopefully Shear will be more potent against targeted spells in the future.
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
TERKOWITZM
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/03/2004 05:50 AM CDT
>The cap on FS is 31 for a warmage. Nonguilded spells typically require more mana for the same effects (For example, during the first big war in TF, I noticed whenever I was running Maliase that she needed to hold considerably more mana than an MM needs to to maintain the spell (4).
This is only true of RF because RF is considered a "signature" spell. Normally no extra mana is required for the same effect.
- Smeg
Smegul says, "Heh."
This is only true of RF because RF is considered a "signature" spell. Normally no extra mana is required for the same effect.
- Smeg
Smegul says, "Heh."
LINKZY
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/03/2004 09:12 AM CDT
<<Link = pwnzd.
All of this whining and you can overcome 90 mana worth of barrier spells in a targetted 15 mana cast. You were right, the equations do need re-examined, hopefully Shear will be more potent against targeted spells in the future.>>
you obviously dont know what you're talking about. which doesnt surprise me... go read the mm folder where i posted results of MMvsMM. my moon mage circle 117 is totally denied every spell(yes even targetted) by the moon mage half his circle/skill.
All of this whining and you can overcome 90 mana worth of barrier spells in a targetted 15 mana cast. You were right, the equations do need re-examined, hopefully Shear will be more potent against targeted spells in the future.>>
you obviously dont know what you're talking about. which doesnt surprise me... go read the mm folder where i posted results of MMvsMM. my moon mage circle 117 is totally denied every spell(yes even targetted) by the moon mage half his circle/skill.
LINKZY
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/03/2004 09:43 AM CDT
<<my moon mage circle 117 is totally denied every spell>>
oh yea except for the 44 mana burn thats the only thing i could get through. he even stunned me on a 65 mana mb
oh yea except for the 44 mana burn thats the only thing i could get through. he even stunned me on a 65 mana mb
LORD-RAHL
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/03/2004 11:17 AM CDT
>and yes you can drop shear and cast a spell.. prep shear pause 3 cast prep other spell waitfor shear to drop cast prep shear cast it takes about the same amount of time for both.
You do realize that we can't drop Shear on demand? It's up until it's duration expires (which can be quite long) or it gets ripped off.
-Mozzik
Rumet asks, "See what happens when I think too hard?"
Talian asks, "Nothing?"
You do realize that we can't drop Shear on demand? It's up until it's duration expires (which can be quite long) or it gets ripped off.
-Mozzik
Rumet asks, "See what happens when I think too hard?"
Talian asks, "Nothing?"
NEOJAPAN
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/03/2004 01:59 PM CDT
<<Honestly, from what I've seen, actually TARGETTING seems to be the single most important factor in defeating barriers - considerably more important than mana or skill. This seems to be by design, and the same tends to hold true Vs. BMR as well.
So....when exactly was the last time you were able to fully target some one unless they were afk? Other than when your testing vs your MM and of course let yourself wail on yourself?
So....when exactly was the last time you were able to fully target some one unless they were afk? Other than when your testing vs your MM and of course let yourself wail on yourself?
REDFERS
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/03/2004 02:42 PM CDT
Just a couple of points to throw into your p**ing contest, gents
Shear is weakened when spells are cast at it. Nobody has mentioned that yet. Weaker shears are easier to break through, oddly enough
There is a strength at which you can cast certain types of spell at shear and avoid the backlash stun, while weakening the shear. Tested this with Amaldur and Kythryn. Casting calm at 50 mana wore down Amaldur's shield without a backlash. Did the same with the GMPC Mhaylana, leaving her shear weak enough to be burnt through next cast. Both Amaldur and Mhaylana were over 100th circle. ES used to cut right through shear. Does it still?
First time Yhaman cast at Redfers with a max strength shear, he got the backlash. Second time, cut straight through for a kill. I imagine he learned from his initial deaths caused by the shear backlash and changed his tactics. Varinocae cut straight through Redfers' max shear with ice patch, though it was weakened, it did cause him to fall. She wasn't stunned.
You seem to be doing something wrong against shear. It's perfectly possible to overcome it, if you play smart
Arguing about shear blocking a tm spell and complaining that the caster has 500 ranks more tm than evasion is spurious. Someone with a discharged ES is going to survive a cast of chain lightning, no matter what the TM of the caster. Am I right in thinking that you can avoid fire rain using zephyr?
Shear has it's uses, of that there's no doubt, but it also has it's downside too. You can see someone with a shear up, you know they can't mental blast, so you use a bow or whatever weapon. A moonmage isn't going to be finding shear all that useful against a barbarian or thief. Shear is an option.
People seem to be making light of losing the use of the psychic projection book. Losing mental blast is a huge loss, calm too. You might get the backlash stun if a spell is cast at the shear, but not definitely and will get no backlash stuns if they see the shear and decide to don an aether cloak (just using the warrior mage as an example here) and go to it with mundane weapons
Just because you can't seem to beat shear using the spells you want to, doesn't mean there aren't spells in your arsenal to defeat it
Redfers
Shear is weakened when spells are cast at it. Nobody has mentioned that yet. Weaker shears are easier to break through, oddly enough
There is a strength at which you can cast certain types of spell at shear and avoid the backlash stun, while weakening the shear. Tested this with Amaldur and Kythryn. Casting calm at 50 mana wore down Amaldur's shield without a backlash. Did the same with the GMPC Mhaylana, leaving her shear weak enough to be burnt through next cast. Both Amaldur and Mhaylana were over 100th circle. ES used to cut right through shear. Does it still?
First time Yhaman cast at Redfers with a max strength shear, he got the backlash. Second time, cut straight through for a kill. I imagine he learned from his initial deaths caused by the shear backlash and changed his tactics. Varinocae cut straight through Redfers' max shear with ice patch, though it was weakened, it did cause him to fall. She wasn't stunned.
You seem to be doing something wrong against shear. It's perfectly possible to overcome it, if you play smart
Arguing about shear blocking a tm spell and complaining that the caster has 500 ranks more tm than evasion is spurious. Someone with a discharged ES is going to survive a cast of chain lightning, no matter what the TM of the caster. Am I right in thinking that you can avoid fire rain using zephyr?
Shear has it's uses, of that there's no doubt, but it also has it's downside too. You can see someone with a shear up, you know they can't mental blast, so you use a bow or whatever weapon. A moonmage isn't going to be finding shear all that useful against a barbarian or thief. Shear is an option.
People seem to be making light of losing the use of the psychic projection book. Losing mental blast is a huge loss, calm too. You might get the backlash stun if a spell is cast at the shear, but not definitely and will get no backlash stuns if they see the shear and decide to don an aether cloak (just using the warrior mage as an example here) and go to it with mundane weapons
Just because you can't seem to beat shear using the spells you want to, doesn't mean there aren't spells in your arsenal to defeat it
Redfers
MORNINGSTORM
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/03/2004 02:43 PM CDT
Mozzik, I think what they were talking about is recasting shear. Since it doesn't stack wouldn't the new cast set the duration? Or is this factor cut off by the origional shear and thus further casts rendered moot?
Jerevth
Nodwick: "Okay... this is ominous."
Yeagar:"If "ominous" means something that makes you "*need to change your shorts*", then I've learned a new word."
(Moments later) I think I just "ominoused" myself.
Jerevth
Nodwick: "Okay... this is ominous."
Yeagar:"If "ominous" means something that makes you "*need to change your shorts*", then I've learned a new word."
(Moments later) I think I just "ominoused" myself.
REDFERS
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/03/2004 02:49 PM CDT
Recasting shear replaces the old shear with the new cast.
This was a change brought in by Talian, as it wasn't possible to make it so shear could be released, enabling a mage to cast a min prep shear, for instance, to get back the use of the psy pro book.
Redfers
This was a change brought in by Talian, as it wasn't possible to make it so shear could be released, enabling a mage to cast a min prep shear, for instance, to get back the use of the psy pro book.
Redfers
LORDLOL
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/03/2004 03:34 PM CDT
>Mozzik, I think what they were talking about is recasting shear. Since it doesn't stack wouldn't the new cast set the duration?
Yes, it replaces it, and a min cast lasts about a minute or longer, it is quite a bit different than just being able to type cast with AC up. As per your comment about a WM not having enough mana to re-harness an AC afterwards... Since you are using your previously harnessed AC mana to cast whatever spell you cast, that is mana you are saving on that spell, which makes the re-harnessing of AC a wash. You make it sound like it is easy for a MM to just constantly re-cast 50 mana shears and 40 mana SoDs, and yet utterly difficult for a WM to re-harness 20-50 mana.
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
Yes, it replaces it, and a min cast lasts about a minute or longer, it is quite a bit different than just being able to type cast with AC up. As per your comment about a WM not having enough mana to re-harness an AC afterwards... Since you are using your previously harnessed AC mana to cast whatever spell you cast, that is mana you are saving on that spell, which makes the re-harnessing of AC a wash. You make it sound like it is easy for a MM to just constantly re-cast 50 mana shears and 40 mana SoDs, and yet utterly difficult for a WM to re-harness 20-50 mana.
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
LINKZY
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/03/2004 04:56 PM CDT
<<You do realize that we can't drop Shear on demand? It's up until it's duration expires (which can be quite long) or it gets ripped off.>>
on demand maybe not but within 30 seconds to a minute definitely
<<You make it sound like it is easy for a MM to just constantly re-cast 50 mana shears and 40 mana SoDs, and yet utterly difficult for a WM to re-harness 20-50 mana.>>
first of all you dont have to recast shear and sod EVERY time you cast a spell, only when the duration is up or you want to cast a spell from the psy book(and if u were planning on casting a spell from the psy book you wouldnt have shear up anyway) also you can use camb to help with casting your defense spell whereas its pointless when you're using AC since you already have harnessed mana and you cant use camb towards AC
on demand maybe not but within 30 seconds to a minute definitely
<<You make it sound like it is easy for a MM to just constantly re-cast 50 mana shears and 40 mana SoDs, and yet utterly difficult for a WM to re-harness 20-50 mana.>>
first of all you dont have to recast shear and sod EVERY time you cast a spell, only when the duration is up or you want to cast a spell from the psy book(and if u were planning on casting a spell from the psy book you wouldnt have shear up anyway) also you can use camb to help with casting your defense spell whereas its pointless when you're using AC since you already have harnessed mana and you cant use camb towards AC
MARGASH
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/03/2004 05:00 PM CDT
>Just as an aside here, since when is the max prep on FS 31? It's 36 on runestones and using a scroll.
31 = no rain, for a WM.
This part is correct. It takes more if raining or snowing. Not sure about for non-WMs.
Tessaa
31 = no rain, for a WM.
This part is correct. It takes more if raining or snowing. Not sure about for non-WMs.
Tessaa
MORS-INCARNATUS
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/03/2004 05:41 PM CDT
<<So....when exactly was the last time you were able to fully target some one unless they were afk? Other than when your testing vs your MM and of course let yourself wail on yourself? >>
Beside the point. After a lot of playing, I've come to the conclusion that this is by design. I'm not saying I necessarily agree with the design, but I'm really, really certain that my theory is very close to reality.
Beside the point. After a lot of playing, I've come to the conclusion that this is by design. I'm not saying I necessarily agree with the design, but I'm really, really certain that my theory is very close to reality.
MORNINGSTORM
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/03/2004 07:28 PM CDT
Lol,
I'm not making it sound like anything.
My last question was directed toward "edification". (har)
I would still take Shear over AC. We both know worn camb can pump huge amounts of mana into a recast shear. Moon Mages also have the ability to hold more mana longer than warrior mages or so my tests have shown. (100 WM harness ranks to a does not equal 100 MM harness ranks.) (Far worse, even, for empaths)
All things equal, nothing is equal and that's the crux of the problem. Warrior mages are behind the curve.
Jerevth
Nodwick: "Okay... this is ominous."
Yeagar:"If "ominous" means something that makes you "*need to change your shorts*", then I've learned a new word."
(Moments later) I think I just "ominoused" myself.
I'm not making it sound like anything.
My last question was directed toward "edification". (har)
I would still take Shear over AC. We both know worn camb can pump huge amounts of mana into a recast shear. Moon Mages also have the ability to hold more mana longer than warrior mages or so my tests have shown. (100 WM harness ranks to a does not equal 100 MM harness ranks.) (Far worse, even, for empaths)
All things equal, nothing is equal and that's the crux of the problem. Warrior mages are behind the curve.
Jerevth
Nodwick: "Okay... this is ominous."
Yeagar:"If "ominous" means something that makes you "*need to change your shorts*", then I've learned a new word."
(Moments later) I think I just "ominoused" myself.
LORDLOL
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/03/2004 08:02 PM CDT
>Moon Mages also have the ability to hold more mana longer than warrior mages or so my tests have shown. (100 WM harness ranks to a does not equal 100 MM harness ranks.) (Far worse, even, for empaths)
And this is the kind of logic and well thought out arguement that is being applied in the lunar magic folder to try to downtweak our spells. Please familiarize yourself with the magic system before posting further on this matter. Ability to hold mana is related, among other things (none of which MMs have a guild bonus to) the amount of mana in the room. Since MMs have the same mana in every room, there are many rooms we hold mana better than WMs. There are also rooms that a WM with 1/10th of the power perceive will see better mana than a MM, and hold mana better in.
As for cambrinth, where does the mana come from that goes into cambrinth to re-cast shear? It just "magically" appears there? No, it comes out of the mage's harness just the same as a WM who harnesses mana. You state that you need to reharness mana for AC, and ignore the fact that if you had not cast a spell, you would not have, and in casting the spell, the cast spell received the "free" mana that was held for the AC, mana that you otherwise would have needed to harness/charge/prep higher for.
In closing, you have already admitted that targetted spells break through shear just fine when they are in fact targetted. Furthermore you have ignored the fact that the contest for shear is consistant with every other one in magic 2.0. Currently, in any contest, 900 PM does not help you (past a certain, minimal point). You want your 900 PM to mean something, prep at the cap. You want your TM to mean something, target your spell, or use a DFA spell.
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
And this is the kind of logic and well thought out arguement that is being applied in the lunar magic folder to try to downtweak our spells. Please familiarize yourself with the magic system before posting further on this matter. Ability to hold mana is related, among other things (none of which MMs have a guild bonus to) the amount of mana in the room. Since MMs have the same mana in every room, there are many rooms we hold mana better than WMs. There are also rooms that a WM with 1/10th of the power perceive will see better mana than a MM, and hold mana better in.
As for cambrinth, where does the mana come from that goes into cambrinth to re-cast shear? It just "magically" appears there? No, it comes out of the mage's harness just the same as a WM who harnesses mana. You state that you need to reharness mana for AC, and ignore the fact that if you had not cast a spell, you would not have, and in casting the spell, the cast spell received the "free" mana that was held for the AC, mana that you otherwise would have needed to harness/charge/prep higher for.
In closing, you have already admitted that targetted spells break through shear just fine when they are in fact targetted. Furthermore you have ignored the fact that the contest for shear is consistant with every other one in magic 2.0. Currently, in any contest, 900 PM does not help you (past a certain, minimal point). You want your 900 PM to mean something, prep at the cap. You want your TM to mean something, target your spell, or use a DFA spell.
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
MARGASH
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/03/2004 08:21 PM CDT
>Ability to hold mana is related, among other things (none of which MMs have a guild bonus to) the amount of mana in the room.
Are you sure room mana matters?
I thought it was amount you're holding, nerve condition, and amount of harness you have left.
Tessaa
Are you sure room mana matters?
I thought it was amount you're holding, nerve condition, and amount of harness you have left.
Tessaa
LORDLOL
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/03/2004 08:22 PM CDT
PS - Here is an old complaint about AC with 30 mana (a far cry from the 60 being claimed is needed for any effectiveness) causing a MM with more than double the targets evasion to completely miss a fully targetted DO. As there is no way to overpower a WM's AC, unlike Shear, and because you are so interested in game balance, perhaps you should spend your time in the future asking for this to be adjusted.
https://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=23&topic=5&message=1421
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
https://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=23&topic=5&message=1421
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
LORDLOL
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/03/2004 08:32 PM CDT
>Are you sure room mana matters?
Yes. But if you want to keep believing that each rank of harness is more effective for MMs than WMs, despite Clerics being the masters of harness, that is certainly your right.
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
Yes. But if you want to keep believing that each rank of harness is more effective for MMs than WMs, despite Clerics being the masters of harness, that is certainly your right.
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
MARGASH
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/03/2004 08:35 PM CDT
Link's been putting (and AC) in paranthesis.
>As there is no way to overpower a WM's AC, unlike Shear,
>LORDLOL
It's a lot easier to get around AC than SoD+Shear. Burn, LB, BB, SF, MB, Halt (if you can't kill someone sleeping or immobilized with weapons you got problems), etc. etc. etc.
Tessaa
>As there is no way to overpower a WM's AC, unlike Shear,
>LORDLOL
It's a lot easier to get around AC than SoD+Shear. Burn, LB, BB, SF, MB, Halt (if you can't kill someone sleeping or immobilized with weapons you got problems), etc. etc. etc.
Tessaa
MARGASH
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/03/2004 08:48 PM CDT
>Yes. But if you want to keep believing that each rank of harness is more effective for MMs than WMs, despite Clerics being the masters of harness, that is certainly your right.
I never said harnessing ranks are more effective for other guilds.
How are you so sure that room mana matters for holding harness? I think you're wrong.
Tessaa
I never said harnessing ranks are more effective for other guilds.
How are you so sure that room mana matters for holding harness? I think you're wrong.
Tessaa
LORDLOL
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/03/2004 08:49 PM CDT
>It's a lot easier to get around AC than SoD+Shear. Burn, LB, BB, SF, MB, Halt
Interesting you should mention DFA spells, as they are also effective against Shear + SoD.
From LINKZY:
>oh yea except for the 44 mana burn thats the only thing i could get through.
So 1 cast of 44 mana burn got through a 40+ cast of Shear and a 40+ cast of SoD. What was the problem again? Oh right, that he wanted to be able to cast targetted spells, without targetting, well against Shear + SoD. And yet is fine with a MM doing faint scuffs with a targeted spell that is fully targetted against an unconscious WM holding 30 mana for AC with less than 1/2 of the evasion of the caster's TM.
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
Interesting you should mention DFA spells, as they are also effective against Shear + SoD.
From LINKZY:
>oh yea except for the 44 mana burn thats the only thing i could get through.
So 1 cast of 44 mana burn got through a 40+ cast of Shear and a 40+ cast of SoD. What was the problem again? Oh right, that he wanted to be able to cast targetted spells, without targetting, well against Shear + SoD. And yet is fine with a MM doing faint scuffs with a targeted spell that is fully targetted against an unconscious WM holding 30 mana for AC with less than 1/2 of the evasion of the caster's TM.
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
LORDLOL
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/03/2004 09:22 PM CDT
>I never said harnessing ranks are more effective for other guilds.
No, but one of the other WMs did.
>How are you so sure that room mana matters for holding harness?
Well, that is what the testing done by a friend of mine in TF showed. I just did another short test myself, which I believe shows the same thing. That being said, it is possible that I was misinformed, and equally possible that this data would not be the trend over thousands of tests, however I have no desire at the moment to spend the time to do thousands of tests. The tests are below, regardless I can guarentee MMs do not receive some sort of harness * 1.342 bonus for held mana spells.
60 held mana, timed 5 minute tests, +/- < 1 second. Nerves healed in between tests. Started at full attunement, mana harnessed by 10 mana increments in the same room both times (shining mana), and character immediately moved to the test room(s).
Test 1:
You reach out with your senses and see hazy streams of Life energy coursing through the area.
You can sense that there is a bit more mana to the west.
Roundtime: 7 seconds
Result: 9 mana slipped in 5 minutes.
Start (Connection Timer: 1:57:30):
You sense a tiny amount of mana slip away from you.
>
You sense a tiny amount of mana slip away from you.
>
You sense a tiny amount of mana slip away from you.
>
You feel fully attuned to the mana streams again.
>
You sense a tiny amount of mana slip away from you.
>
You sense a tiny amount of mana slip away from you.
>
The bandages binding your left eye soak through with blood becoming useless and you begin bleeding again.
> tend my left eye
You work carefully at tending your wound.
Doing your best, you are able to stop the bleeding.
>
You sense a tiny amount of mana slip away from you.
>
You sense a tiny amount of mana slip away from you.
>
You sense a tiny amount of mana slip away from you.
>
You sense a tiny amount of mana slip away from you.
>
End (Connection Timer: 2:02:30):
Test 2:
You reach out with your senses and see glowing streams of Life energy coursing through the area.
You can sense that there is a little more mana to the west, and around the same mana to the southeast.
Roundtime: 4 seconds
Result: 5 mana slipped in 5 minutes.
Start (Connection Timer: 2:06:43):
You sense a tiny amount of mana slip away from you.
>
You sense a tiny amount of mana slip away from you.
>
You sense a tiny amount of mana slip away from you.
>
You sense a tiny amount of mana slip away from you.
>
You feel fully attuned to the mana streams again.
>
You sense a tiny amount of mana slip away from you.
End (Connection Timer: 2:11:43):
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
No, but one of the other WMs did.
>How are you so sure that room mana matters for holding harness?
Well, that is what the testing done by a friend of mine in TF showed. I just did another short test myself, which I believe shows the same thing. That being said, it is possible that I was misinformed, and equally possible that this data would not be the trend over thousands of tests, however I have no desire at the moment to spend the time to do thousands of tests. The tests are below, regardless I can guarentee MMs do not receive some sort of harness * 1.342 bonus for held mana spells.
60 held mana, timed 5 minute tests, +/- < 1 second. Nerves healed in between tests. Started at full attunement, mana harnessed by 10 mana increments in the same room both times (shining mana), and character immediately moved to the test room(s).
Test 1:
You reach out with your senses and see hazy streams of Life energy coursing through the area.
You can sense that there is a bit more mana to the west.
Roundtime: 7 seconds
Result: 9 mana slipped in 5 minutes.
Start (Connection Timer: 1:57:30):
You sense a tiny amount of mana slip away from you.
>
You sense a tiny amount of mana slip away from you.
>
You sense a tiny amount of mana slip away from you.
>
You feel fully attuned to the mana streams again.
>
You sense a tiny amount of mana slip away from you.
>
You sense a tiny amount of mana slip away from you.
>
The bandages binding your left eye soak through with blood becoming useless and you begin bleeding again.
> tend my left eye
You work carefully at tending your wound.
Doing your best, you are able to stop the bleeding.
>
You sense a tiny amount of mana slip away from you.
>
You sense a tiny amount of mana slip away from you.
>
You sense a tiny amount of mana slip away from you.
>
You sense a tiny amount of mana slip away from you.
>
End (Connection Timer: 2:02:30):
Test 2:
You reach out with your senses and see glowing streams of Life energy coursing through the area.
You can sense that there is a little more mana to the west, and around the same mana to the southeast.
Roundtime: 4 seconds
Result: 5 mana slipped in 5 minutes.
Start (Connection Timer: 2:06:43):
You sense a tiny amount of mana slip away from you.
>
You sense a tiny amount of mana slip away from you.
>
You sense a tiny amount of mana slip away from you.
>
You sense a tiny amount of mana slip away from you.
>
You feel fully attuned to the mana streams again.
>
You sense a tiny amount of mana slip away from you.
End (Connection Timer: 2:11:43):
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
MARGASH
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/03/2004 09:34 PM CDT
>So 1 cast of 44 mana burn got through a 40+ cast of Shear and a 40+ cast of SoD. What was the problem again?
You forgot to mention the defender was half the circle of the caster.
I don't think amount of mana slipping in 5 minutes is a good way to do it. I'd check to see how long until twitching. Mana slippage seems random. For some reason I still don't think room mana affects held mana. I could be wrong.
Tessaa
You forgot to mention the defender was half the circle of the caster.
I don't think amount of mana slipping in 5 minutes is a good way to do it. I'd check to see how long until twitching. Mana slippage seems random. For some reason I still don't think room mana affects held mana. I could be wrong.
Tessaa
LORDLOL
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/03/2004 09:44 PM CDT
>You forgot to mention the defender was half the circle of the caster.
And what do you surmise the circle difference was between the MM with 2x the target of the WMs evasion in the AC post?
Also, what importance are you drawing from this circle difference?
Are you implying that a MM of equal circle to the defender could not get through with an equal or ever-so-slightly higher mana burn? Would you be satisfied if i had a MM of signifigantly lower circle cast burn through my Shear + SoD?
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
And what do you surmise the circle difference was between the MM with 2x the target of the WMs evasion in the AC post?
Also, what importance are you drawing from this circle difference?
Are you implying that a MM of equal circle to the defender could not get through with an equal or ever-so-slightly higher mana burn? Would you be satisfied if i had a MM of signifigantly lower circle cast burn through my Shear + SoD?
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
MARGASH
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/03/2004 09:54 PM CDT
>Would you be satisfied if i had a MM of signifigantly lower circle cast burn through my Shear + SoD?
Yes. Assuming the SoD and Shear were both capped or near it. Also assuming the higher circle character didn't have very poor reflex/agility.
Tessaa
Yes. Assuming the SoD and Shear were both capped or near it. Also assuming the higher circle character didn't have very poor reflex/agility.
Tessaa
LORDLOL
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/03/2004 10:55 PM CDT
>Yes. Assuming the SoD and Shear were both capped or near it. Also assuming the higher circle character didn't have very poor reflex/agility.
Yes, they are both capped or near it, and i have 40 agility, 39 reflex. I know that I was one-shotted through my Shear + SoD by Pormithius with burn a while ago. He is higher than me, but not grossly. When I can find another MM who is of less than or equal circle that can cap burn I will test it, there are none around where I am at the moment.
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
Yes, they are both capped or near it, and i have 40 agility, 39 reflex. I know that I was one-shotted through my Shear + SoD by Pormithius with burn a while ago. He is higher than me, but not grossly. When I can find another MM who is of less than or equal circle that can cap burn I will test it, there are none around where I am at the moment.
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
LINKZY
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/04/2004 12:00 AM CDT
<<So 1 cast of 44 mana burn got through a 40+ cast of Shear and a 40+ cast of SoD. What was the problem again? Oh right, that he wanted to be able to cast targetted spells, without targetting,>>
i hate that it has come to this... but you are a moron. go back and read the whole post of my moon mage vs moon mage test. the 44 burn was the only one i was able to get through out of a number of spells (not just snapped tm spells) but just to mention a few there were a full target DO CRS 65 mana MB and i cant remember what else.
i hate that it has come to this... but you are a moron. go back and read the whole post of my moon mage vs moon mage test. the 44 burn was the only one i was able to get through out of a number of spells (not just snapped tm spells) but just to mention a few there were a full target DO CRS 65 mana MB and i cant remember what else.
MARGASH
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/04/2004 12:26 AM CDT
>i hate that it has come to this... but you are a moron. go back and read the whole post of my moon mage vs moon mage test. the 44 burn was the only one i was able to get through out of a number of spells (not just snapped tm spells) but just to mention a few there were a full target DO CRS 65 mana MB and i cant remember what else.
Yeah, I'm still waiting for that burn test he was talking about too.
Tessaa
Yeah, I'm still waiting for that burn test he was talking about too.
Tessaa
LORDLOL
Re: MM barrier spells...
06/04/2004 01:27 AM CDT
>i hate that it has come to this... but you are a moron.
Cry me a river you whiny little girl.
>Yeah, I'm still waiting for that burn test he was talking about too.
Well, you know what, since I already know Porm got through my Shear + SoD, and because you are also a whiny little girl, I am no longer going to go out of my way and travel to find someone to test it. You can test it if it pleases you. The GMs are not going to change it, so suck it up, or go to an inn and re-roll. Better yet, just buy a MM next time Tessaa.
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
Cry me a river you whiny little girl.
>Yeah, I'm still waiting for that burn test he was talking about too.
Well, you know what, since I already know Porm got through my Shear + SoD, and because you are also a whiny little girl, I am no longer going to go out of my way and travel to find someone to test it. You can test it if it pleases you. The GMs are not going to change it, so suck it up, or go to an inn and re-roll. Better yet, just buy a MM next time Tessaa.
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
DR-ZADRAES
Re: MM barrier spells... *NUDGE*
06/04/2004 05:56 AM CDT
Stop the personal attacks folks. You want to discuss the situation, fine, but do so without attacking one another. This isn't the place for it.
Thanks.
AGM Zadraes
Premium/Platinum Assistant
Thanks.
AGM Zadraes
Premium/Platinum Assistant
WILTONQU
Re: MM barrier spells... *NUDGE*
06/04/2004 06:11 AM CDT
<<Yeah, I'm still waiting for that burn test he was talking about too.
Tessaa >>
Burn is a hybrid spell not a true TM spell, It hits based on PM and scales damage up based on mana input and to a much lesser factor TM. These type spells at the higher end are Overpowered to an extreme. I suspect you would get the same result with Smegul casting a capped cast of AE. It doesn't mean anything is really balanced it just means that these Death from above hybrid spells scale up so high on damage that they can literally blow anything away. Even though AE is a cleric spell and I am cleric primary I will be the first to admit that at higher mana the spell is WAY overpowered. With AE I can blow things away I could not even touch 1 in 20 cast with a fully preped TM spell. Because burn can blow through the defensive barriors it does not mean the barriors are weak just that the one spell<in this cast the spell type> is vastly overpowered.
Just A Cleric
Tessaa >>
Burn is a hybrid spell not a true TM spell, It hits based on PM and scales damage up based on mana input and to a much lesser factor TM. These type spells at the higher end are Overpowered to an extreme. I suspect you would get the same result with Smegul casting a capped cast of AE. It doesn't mean anything is really balanced it just means that these Death from above hybrid spells scale up so high on damage that they can literally blow anything away. Even though AE is a cleric spell and I am cleric primary I will be the first to admit that at higher mana the spell is WAY overpowered. With AE I can blow things away I could not even touch 1 in 20 cast with a fully preped TM spell. Because burn can blow through the defensive barriors it does not mean the barriors are weak just that the one spell<in this cast the spell type> is vastly overpowered.
Just A Cleric
MARGASH
Re: MM barrier spells... *NUDGE*
06/04/2004 10:02 AM CDT
>Well, you know what, since I already know Porm got through my Shear + SoD, and because you are also a whiny little girl, I am no longer going to go out of my way and travel to find someone to test it. You can test it if it pleases you. The GMs are not going to change it, so suck it up, or go to an inn and re-roll. Better yet, just buy a MM next time Tessaa.
Porm > You.
You said, "Would you be satisfied if i had a MM of signifigantly lower circle cast burn through my Shear + SoD?"
I still don't think a MM significantly lower circle could get through a capped Shear and SoD.
>Burn is a hybrid spell not a true TM spell, It hits based on PM and scales damage up based on mana input and to a much lesser factor TM. These type spells at the higher end are Overpowered to an extreme. I suspect you would get the same result with Smegul casting a capped cast of AE. It doesn't mean anything is really balanced it just means that these Death from above hybrid spells scale up so high on damage that they can literally blow anything away. Even though AE is a cleric spell and I am cleric primary I will be the first to admit that at higher mana the spell is WAY overpowered. With AE I can blow things away I could not even touch 1 in 20 cast with a fully preped TM spell. Because burn can blow through the defensive barriors it does not mean the barriors are weak just that the one spell<in this cast the spell type> is vastly overpowered.
I know how burn works. It does not hit based on PM. The offensive power of burn is dependant on... (for the SvA part) Mana, Disc., Charisma, Agility, Reflex, with balance as a modifier and (for the TM part) mana, TM skill, and a little bit of disc./agility (more disc.). Defending against burn is (the SvA part) Reflex, agility, evasion, and (The TM part) evasion, and a little bit of reflex.
You say that "These type of spells at the higher end are Overpowered to an extreme." I disagree. SvW spells such as mental blast, halt, tingle etc. will be able to affect a "bigger" target than the caster more easily than a SvA/TM hybrid spell will. I think SvS are the same also. So if they are over-powered, there are even more overpowered contested spells to address first.
Are you sure AE is a hybrid spell? I'll admit to being cleric ignorant. Some ways to test it: You learn TM. Aether cloak helps defend against it. If you VoI up and cast the spell, the VoI will do nothing. If you have VoI up and are the target, it will block the spell.
In any event, I still do not believe that "a MM of signifigantly lower circle cast burn through my Shear + SoD" assuming the Shear + SoD are capped or near capped and the target has respectable reflex/agility for their circle.
Tessaa
Porm > You.
You said, "Would you be satisfied if i had a MM of signifigantly lower circle cast burn through my Shear + SoD?"
I still don't think a MM significantly lower circle could get through a capped Shear and SoD.
>Burn is a hybrid spell not a true TM spell, It hits based on PM and scales damage up based on mana input and to a much lesser factor TM. These type spells at the higher end are Overpowered to an extreme. I suspect you would get the same result with Smegul casting a capped cast of AE. It doesn't mean anything is really balanced it just means that these Death from above hybrid spells scale up so high on damage that they can literally blow anything away. Even though AE is a cleric spell and I am cleric primary I will be the first to admit that at higher mana the spell is WAY overpowered. With AE I can blow things away I could not even touch 1 in 20 cast with a fully preped TM spell. Because burn can blow through the defensive barriors it does not mean the barriors are weak just that the one spell<in this cast the spell type> is vastly overpowered.
I know how burn works. It does not hit based on PM. The offensive power of burn is dependant on... (for the SvA part) Mana, Disc., Charisma, Agility, Reflex, with balance as a modifier and (for the TM part) mana, TM skill, and a little bit of disc./agility (more disc.). Defending against burn is (the SvA part) Reflex, agility, evasion, and (The TM part) evasion, and a little bit of reflex.
You say that "These type of spells at the higher end are Overpowered to an extreme." I disagree. SvW spells such as mental blast, halt, tingle etc. will be able to affect a "bigger" target than the caster more easily than a SvA/TM hybrid spell will. I think SvS are the same also. So if they are over-powered, there are even more overpowered contested spells to address first.
Are you sure AE is a hybrid spell? I'll admit to being cleric ignorant. Some ways to test it: You learn TM. Aether cloak helps defend against it. If you VoI up and cast the spell, the VoI will do nothing. If you have VoI up and are the target, it will block the spell.
In any event, I still do not believe that "a MM of signifigantly lower circle cast burn through my Shear + SoD" assuming the Shear + SoD are capped or near capped and the target has respectable reflex/agility for their circle.
Tessaa
