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Respectfully Stolas, NB isn't an attack spell but a beneficial spell with a disabling effect. It can be a tool used to disable someone for an excessive period of time that allows another tool (avenger or mundane weapon) to be used to attack. The period of time it can disable someone is what is out of line, particularly in light of the move to bring all (iirc) disabling spells down in time.
Asbhuan
DELVER
IDONS-BUDDY
Re: Nissa's Binding
07/29/2008 04:42 PM CDT
>> The period of time it can disable someone is what is out of line, particularly in light of the move to bring all (iirc) disabling spells down in time.
^ this
I also think the heart link requirement needs to be removed. It should just be something you cast on someone.
As it stands now, Moon Mages do have a barrier spell that functions against HL and therefore prevents NB, and we're the only guild that does at this point in time. Neither spell can be flagged as offensive under the current system so that is the best we'll get.
Rev. Reene
SEND[Averiss] what were you recently doing with the mirror and the horse?
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^ this
I also think the heart link requirement needs to be removed. It should just be something you cast on someone.
As it stands now, Moon Mages do have a barrier spell that functions against HL and therefore prevents NB, and we're the only guild that does at this point in time. Neither spell can be flagged as offensive under the current system so that is the best we'll get.
Rev. Reene
SEND[Averiss] what were you recently doing with the mirror and the horse?
Idon: Is there something I should know about?
Me: I'm not even talking to you.
HEADHUNTER71
Re: Nissa's Binding
07/29/2008 04:57 PM CDT
<<I also think the heart link requirement needs to be removed. It should just be something you cast on someone.>>
:oP Ragran
:oP Ragran
JULIAN
Re: Nissa's Binding
07/29/2008 05:14 PM CDT
<<I also think the heart link requirement needs to be removed. It should just be something you cast on someone.>>
Might want to set the minimum effect at something less than unconsciousness.
- Mazrian
Might want to set the minimum effect at something less than unconsciousness.
- Mazrian
IDONS-BUDDY
Re: Nissa's Binding
07/29/2008 05:25 PM CDT
>> Might want to set the minimum effect at something less than unconsciousness.
Immobilization?
Rev. Reene
SEND[Averiss] what were you recently doing with the mirror and the horse?
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Immobilization?
Rev. Reene
SEND[Averiss] what were you recently doing with the mirror and the horse?
Idon: Is there something I should know about?
Me: I'm not even talking to you.
DIVINEWIND
Re: Nissa's Binding
07/30/2008 07:47 AM CDT
Like you said Stolas, 40 stamina won't really cut it against an Empath specialized in that stat.
The duration and the fact that it can be cast when someone is super far away are the broken aspects in my mind. I don't think it needs to contest magical barriers since its primary function is of a beneficial spell.
And Taghz is right - I meant train shield so that when you're asleep you can block those sad little avenger attacks. For what it is worth, even I get put to sleep and I've got really nice stamina as well as BMR.
- Galren
>>The Rippentropps are a mysterious collective of well-known individuals whose primary charge is to initiate the advancing task of not stopping.
The duration and the fact that it can be cast when someone is super far away are the broken aspects in my mind. I don't think it needs to contest magical barriers since its primary function is of a beneficial spell.
And Taghz is right - I meant train shield so that when you're asleep you can block those sad little avenger attacks. For what it is worth, even I get put to sleep and I've got really nice stamina as well as BMR.
- Galren
>>The Rippentropps are a mysterious collective of well-known individuals whose primary charge is to initiate the advancing task of not stopping.
ICON1
Re: Nissa's Binding
07/30/2008 09:47 AM CDT
Well I must say I never expected to see a discussion about nerfing Empaths for being too powerful in PvP :chuckles:
Synyster Shadowmaiden
Synyster Shadowmaiden
CHAOS
Re: Nissa's Binding
07/30/2008 10:17 AM CDT
I have noticed that some empaths try to use it for their own sick, twisted games <cough>Ashbuan<cough>. Whenever he sees me he tries to put me to sleep... only time he ever managed it was immediately after a GM appear to respond to my assist request.
DELVER
Re: Nissa's Binding
07/30/2008 10:43 AM CDT
Only because you're such a loveable Gnome, Kurako, and we were in a safe location waiting for the GM to get back on your assist. I was "killed" for it by the assisting GM which was deserved. As the badge say "Death Happens". Now every time I Heart Link you you get nervous. More fun than mentioning Ocular.
This by the way was in Plat and was non-confrontational. We were playing around while waiting.
Asbhuan
This by the way was in Plat and was non-confrontational. We were playing around while waiting.
Asbhuan
CHAOS
Re: Nissa's Binding
07/30/2008 11:01 AM CDT
Oh you're no fun, you take out the joy in my painting the picture of you as some maniac, gnome abusing Empath.
Kurako
Kurako
IDONS-BUDDY
Re: Nissa's Binding
07/30/2008 12:12 PM CDT
>> Well I must say I never expected to see a discussion about nerfing Empaths for being too powerful in PvP :chuckles:
Being given combat viability means we no longer have our old excuses for keeping our old cap-breaking spells.
I just hope they don't give it the Lethargy treatment because that is an abysmally horrible spell.
Rev. Reene
SEND[Averiss] what were you recently doing with the mirror and the horse?
Idon: Is there something I should know about?
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Being given combat viability means we no longer have our old excuses for keeping our old cap-breaking spells.
I just hope they don't give it the Lethargy treatment because that is an abysmally horrible spell.
Rev. Reene
SEND[Averiss] what were you recently doing with the mirror and the horse?
Idon: Is there something I should know about?
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KAJAGOOGOO
Re: Nissa's Binding
07/30/2008 01:18 PM CDT
>>I just hope they don't give it the Lethargy treatment because that is an abysmally horrible spell.
Howso Reene? I think any spell that removes half a critter's offensive and defensive abilities is golden in my eyes.
Got Body Parts?
Howso Reene? I think any spell that removes half a critter's offensive and defensive abilities is golden in my eyes.
Got Body Parts?
IDONS-BUDDY
Re: Nissa's Binding
07/30/2008 01:19 PM CDT
>> I think any spell that removes half a critter's offensive and defensive abilities is golden in my eyes.
Lethargy doesn't do that unless a major change to the spell went in when no one was looking.
Rev. Reene
SEND[Averiss] what were you recently doing with the mirror and the horse?
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Lethargy doesn't do that unless a major change to the spell went in when no one was looking.
Rev. Reene
SEND[Averiss] what were you recently doing with the mirror and the horse?
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KAJAGOOGOO
Re: Nissa's Binding
07/30/2008 01:21 PM CDT
then what does a 50% reduction in fatigue do to a critter's (or character's for that matter) offense and defense?
Got Body Parts?
Got Body Parts?
IDONS-BUDDY
Re: Nissa's Binding
07/30/2008 01:29 PM CDT
>> then what does a 50% reduction in fatigue do to a critter's (or character's for that matter) offense and defense?
Short answer? Not much.
50% was decent before the changes to fatigue went in, back when having your fatigue tanked would utterly wreck you. Now, it...really doesn't do very much.
Lethargy needs some love.
Rev. Reene
SEND[Averiss] what were you recently doing with the mirror and the horse?
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Short answer? Not much.
50% was decent before the changes to fatigue went in, back when having your fatigue tanked would utterly wreck you. Now, it...really doesn't do very much.
Lethargy needs some love.
Rev. Reene
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KAJAGOOGOO
Re: Nissa's Binding
07/30/2008 02:16 PM CDT
I honestly beg to differ, just through observation and casting lethargy on my avenger, it goes from thrashing Black Leucros, to becoming Leucro-chow, just with 1 leucro on it. (91 circles and 46 charisma, and 15 prep GS). and if I cast lethargy on the leucro and not on the avenger, they can 2-3 hit kill them, otherwise its a 5-6 hit kill.
I will grant that lethargy is pretty useless for the empath in a PvP situation since a 50% hit in fatigue is not enough to keep most spellcasting characters from completly pawning you with snap-cast-min-prep spells, in those cases NB is definatly your best friend.
If the spell hits the global cap, it hits the global cap, not much more love can be given a spell that is capped. The only change I could suggest for it would be to make it equally effective against undead/cursed critters.
Got Body Parts?
I will grant that lethargy is pretty useless for the empath in a PvP situation since a 50% hit in fatigue is not enough to keep most spellcasting characters from completly pawning you with snap-cast-min-prep spells, in those cases NB is definatly your best friend.
If the spell hits the global cap, it hits the global cap, not much more love can be given a spell that is capped. The only change I could suggest for it would be to make it equally effective against undead/cursed critters.
Got Body Parts?
IDONS-BUDDY
Re: Nissa's Binding
07/30/2008 02:26 PM CDT
>> I honestly beg to differ
I will say my experiences don't impress me and that in my testing of the spell there was effectively very little difference. Regardless, going from a 5 hit kill to a 3 hit kill is not remotely impressive at all. Not for the level of difficulty that Lethargy presents. I would accept this level of mediocrity if it were a first tier spell instead of a third tier spell and the difficulty of casting it was halved.
I suspect Empaths are just easily satisfied because we're so rarely handed anything at all. I know Empaths that enjoy using Sprout regularly too, doesn't make it a good spell.
>> If the spell hits the global cap, it hits the global cap, not much more love can be given a spell that is capped.
I've actually made suggestions to the spell that would improve it significantly (especially in PvP) but we heard no response so who knows if anything is happening with Lethargy.
Rev. Reene
SEND[Averiss] what were you recently doing with the mirror and the horse?
Idon: Is there something I should know about?
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I will say my experiences don't impress me and that in my testing of the spell there was effectively very little difference. Regardless, going from a 5 hit kill to a 3 hit kill is not remotely impressive at all. Not for the level of difficulty that Lethargy presents. I would accept this level of mediocrity if it were a first tier spell instead of a third tier spell and the difficulty of casting it was halved.
I suspect Empaths are just easily satisfied because we're so rarely handed anything at all. I know Empaths that enjoy using Sprout regularly too, doesn't make it a good spell.
>> If the spell hits the global cap, it hits the global cap, not much more love can be given a spell that is capped.
I've actually made suggestions to the spell that would improve it significantly (especially in PvP) but we heard no response so who knows if anything is happening with Lethargy.
Rev. Reene
SEND[Averiss] what were you recently doing with the mirror and the horse?
Idon: Is there something I should know about?
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TELGER
Re: Nissa's Binding
07/30/2008 02:26 PM CDT
I recall seeing a post from Obseden that says Lethargy also has an offensive/defensive debuff component.
Found it: https://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=23&topic=2&message=3393
~Thilan
Found it: https://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=23&topic=2&message=3393
~Thilan
IDONS-BUDDY
Re: Nissa's Binding
07/30/2008 02:31 PM CDT
The fatigue hit is IIRC meant to be the main aspect of the spell. Upping the OF/Def debuff would probably help.
I really just didn't notice much of anything in my testing, and the vast majority of Empaths I've talked to share my opinions on the thing. Combat Empaths, too. Ones that are a fair bit above black leucros.
I suppose it's possible we're all just missing something though, so who knows.
Rev. Reene
SEND[Averiss] what were you recently doing with the mirror and the horse?
Idon: Is there something I should know about?
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I really just didn't notice much of anything in my testing, and the vast majority of Empaths I've talked to share my opinions on the thing. Combat Empaths, too. Ones that are a fair bit above black leucros.
I suppose it's possible we're all just missing something though, so who knows.
Rev. Reene
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DR-OBSEDEN
Re: Nissa's Binding
07/30/2008 06:37 PM CDT
Not going into Lethargy for the moment, but did want to comment on the HL/NB thing...
When an Empath gets shock, it will reduce the effectiveness of their HL/NB and going into CI, they will not be able to cast it at all.
-GM Obseden
"To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven."
"Anything's possible. Especially since I'm rewriting the system."
When an Empath gets shock, it will reduce the effectiveness of their HL/NB and going into CI, they will not be able to cast it at all.
-GM Obseden
"To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven."
"Anything's possible. Especially since I'm rewriting the system."
IDONS-BUDDY
Re: Nissa's Binding
07/30/2008 06:45 PM CDT
Can you say whether the functionality of NB will be changing, or will it just be a straight downtweak?
Rev. Reene
SEND[Averiss] what were you recently doing with the mirror and the horse?
Idon: Is there something I should know about?
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Rev. Reene
SEND[Averiss] what were you recently doing with the mirror and the horse?
Idon: Is there something I should know about?
Me: I'm not even talking to you.
WWEST
Re: Nissa's Binding
07/31/2008 10:17 AM CDT
Hopefully the skill check is fixed to actually be reasonable, and hopefully length is determined by the magnitude of success, rather than being a flat 5 minutes or however ridiculously long it currently is.
Also, it needs to give consent when used to harass or disable, bottom line.
Also, it needs to give consent when used to harass or disable, bottom line.
DIVINEWIND
Re: Nissa's Binding
07/31/2008 10:42 AM CDT
>>Also, it needs to give consent when used to harass or disable, bottom line.
It always has in every case I've had it cast on me. Or rather, I've never got in trouble for killing an empath who casted or attempted to cast on me.
- Galren
>>The Rippentropps are a mysterious collective of well-known individuals whose primary charge is to initiate the advancing task of not stopping.
It always has in every case I've had it cast on me. Or rather, I've never got in trouble for killing an empath who casted or attempted to cast on me.
- Galren
>>The Rippentropps are a mysterious collective of well-known individuals whose primary charge is to initiate the advancing task of not stopping.
JMF90
Re: Nissa's Binding
07/31/2008 01:54 PM CDT
>Hopefully the skill check is fixed to actually be reasonable
Honestly, don't hold your breath. SvS is overpowered in general, and the way empaths train their stats they really can't lose the contest even if it is fair.
At this point I go into attack mode the instant someone casts heart link. I hate NB with a passion.
Honestly, don't hold your breath. SvS is overpowered in general, and the way empaths train their stats they really can't lose the contest even if it is fair.
At this point I go into attack mode the instant someone casts heart link. I hate NB with a passion.
