Undead are all that is Unholy, a perversion of Holy or the opposite of Holy. I see the Dark Aspects suplying these undead with their powers. So, it is "Holy" magic, but you can call it "Unholy" magic if it makes things easier for you to swallow.

>>3)Undead are a perversion of Life, not Holy.

Thus why nercomancers will be having a different way to get favors. The Dark aspects are still the same god, just a different aspect to them. Undead definately shouldn't be casting any holy stuff.

Brabs

---

Fighting with a bunch of archers in Geni.

"Hey, it's shoot GENI, not shoot GEN!"


Ambassador Genneron, of M'riss

---

[Arcath] "Public Service Announcement: Please shoot at the archers and not at Arcath"

>describe shyl
Two blazing green eyes peer out from a transparent faced framed by a hood that is barely there. Diaphanous frost-tinged robes of rippling ether cloak the shylvic's Human-esque stature. You find it difficult to focus upon its form, as the outline of the surroundings bleed through, obscuring its translucent body. A faint, icy aura of frost permeates the air around the apparition as it floats aloft, a few feet off the ground.


This thing is definately non corpral undead. It cast several holy spells and rather well to boot. Clerical spells that really take devotion and such to work properly. It just don't make sense from an IC point of view. ALL gods despise undead... It was the reason given why clerics are forbidden to dabble in necromancy or necromancy spells. Not just the light aspects and the neutrol ones but all gods including the dark gods. How about some consistancey and give the undead another type of magic, different messaging or something. I mean I know these are holy spells because i can recognize them when they prep them not to mention the effects. Undead should be able to cast any holy mana spells. Holy and undead just don't go togeather.


Just A Cleric

No... you can cast lunar spells with no moons. Well most of them. Just generally speaking the really potent spells require moons up, mostly those involving intense light (Burn, Dazzle, CG, FM) or those involving teleportation (teleport, MG, RS, WD, PD, Contingency... Ripple is really the only teleport spell that doesn't require a moon, and that makes sense to not need one). But Moon mages have several other abilities that make them more powerful at night and with the moons up, generally mana is better when moons are up, some of the nastier spells can now be used (SLS requires night for example... though CrS is a nasty combat spell and it can be used any time), but prediction and enchanting in particular are MUCH MUCH easier to do at night then during the day.

Either way... we end up in a rather sticky situation... that comes down to, what power is urm... powering the undead? It's a perversion of life magic no? So it seems that their magic should be based on... well a perversion of life magic. That means either something that currently isn't described in magic theory (an oversight perhaps) or necromancies and sorceries. Either way, I agree fully that undead shouldn't be using holy mana... but I don't think we can just flop them to elemental or some such, I think we need to really review how they work in current theories, and firm that up, particullarly since I'd hope we see more undead development if the clerics are really going to be stuck with TM vs undead only, and empaths are getting undead healing (Which I don't agree with... but that's far beyond the scope of this discussion).

-Mozzik

---

Rumet asks, "See what happens when I think too hard?"
Talian asks, "Nothing?"

They are non corpral undead. they cast mal, coz and HP. A non blessed weapon will pass right through them. basically picture DS with magic. Instead of decaying the dead ones just sink into the floor. weak against blunts of course like most undead but they have pretty good magic skills. I thought all three spells were somewhat dependant on devotion H P more so than the other two. It just don't match what we have been told about undead. The reason we are barred from necromancy or necromancy type magic ect. It don't even fit into the reasoning behind our magic being effective against undead. Holy magic is effective against undead because they are abominations to the gods. It is like poison to living flesh. I strongly disagree with undead being able to weild holy magic. Elemental some of them use it fine, some of them have desease breath that is fine. some undead use lunar magic that is also fine. The undead state would not bar them from accessing it.


Just A Cleric

<<<Didn't there use to be an "evil" mana type?>>>

Absolutely. If I remember correctly there was even some type of MD that had this mana in it or was charged with it's mana.

<<<Why can't they make specifically "evil" spells as well?>>>

Because I'd use them against all unruly citizens who won't bow before me, starting with a certain squire. ;)

Kolaisa

Stabbity, block, you go thud.

Drive fast, take risks.

Sometimes undead are created by the gods themselves--they have this right. As mortals, our characters do not.

Also, remember that there are other immortals outside our religion--Maelshyve, The World Dragon, The Gorbesh Gods...

Just because it's holy doesn't mean it's coming from the thirteen.

On another note--The Dragonpriestesses cast a spell we recognize as Zachiedrick's curse, but they clearly do not worship that god. If his spell isn't in the name, then isn't it safe to assume that The World Dragon grants a similar power?

>>Sometimes undead are created by the gods themselves

Wrong. How many times does this need to be said? ALL of the 39 gods and the western gods despise undead and destroy them whenever they can.

>>Also, remember that there are other immortals outside our religion--Maelshyve, The World Dragon, The Gorbesh Gods...

Maelshyve and World Dragon are not divine beings. Just extremely powerful creatures. And Albarian gods aren't really supported in DR. Besides, the Cleric guild only recognizes the Kermorian pantheon, and the current holy magic is bestowed by them only.

>>The Dragonpriestesses cast a spell we recognize as Zachiedrick's curse, but they clearly do not worship that god.

Yes, that is another thing which needs to be corrected. The Undead and Dragon Priests should not use holy magic in any form.

~Aeth

>>The Dragonpriestesses cast a spell we recognize as Zachiedrick's curse, but they clearly do not worship that god.

>Yes, that is another thing which needs to be corrected. The Undead and Dragon Priests should not use holy magic in any form.

No it isn't. Holy mana is holy mana. Holy magic spells are NOT granted or created by the gods themselves. They are rotes created my mortals by which they focus their will on manipulating the latent divinity inherent in all things. Despite the party line, one merely must be "in tune" with such mana to be able to manipulate it. Sensitivity to and manipulation of holy mana does not necessarily make a guilded Cleric (or Paladin). The only thing that really makes holy mana = Cleric/Paladin is the mechanics limitations involved.


RP Uber Alles,
~I.B.

>>The Dragonpriestesses cast a spell we recognize as Zachiedrick's curse, but they clearly do not worship that god.

>Yes, that is another thing which needs to be corrected. The Undead and Dragon Priests should not use holy magic in any form.

Dragon Priests aren't undead. They maybe evil, but not undead. Just thought I'd mention that.


>>Maelshyve and World Dragon are not divine beings. Just extremely powerful creatures. And Albarian gods aren't really supported in DR. Besides, the Cleric guild only recognizes the Kermorian pantheon, and the current holy magic is bestowed by them only.

>>No it isn't. Holy mana is holy mana. Holy magic spells are NOT granted or created by the gods themselves. They are rotes created my mortals by which they focus their will on manipulating the latent divinity inherent in all things. Despite the party line, one merely must be "in tune" with such mana to be able to manipulate it. Sensitivity to and manipulation of holy mana does not necessarily make a guilded Cleric (or Paladin). The only thing that really makes holy mana = Cleric/Paladin is the mechanics limitations involved.


Just to reinforce what was said there, not all holy spells revolve around the 13. For example Hands of Tenemlor, Tenemlor is a prydaen god. When the prydaens came from their land they taught two guilds a spell. Demmriss Resolve to Bards and Hands of Tenemlor to Clerics. The spells were inspiried by the gods but not granted by them, rather mortal hands discovered them then named it in honor of the gods.

<<Holy magic spells are NOT granted or created by the gods themselves. They are rotes created my mortals by which they focus their will on manipulating the latent divinity inherent in all things. Despite the party line, one merely must be "in tune" with such mana to be able to manipulate it.>>

ever have to quest for an elemental spell or offer your self to a diety to learn it? go through stuff about sky giant level for a 30th circle warmie to please some element to get a spell? sorry but your definition of cleric spells are not supported by current mechanics. Maybe just have a cleric walk up and ask a guild leader to get all spells from here on out and you would have a base for your aruguement. till then you don't. Holy spells are powered by devotion it has a HUGE effect on them, I disagree with it having so much of an effect on them because it is magic not a lore skill ect but that is not the way things are.

Sorry,

Cadderrly, aka just a cleric

It's a 2-for-1 sale. With the war on, we have to be thrifty with our posting.

**

>DR defines the amount of holy mana availble to a person in an area is directly realted to the presence of the gods in the past, present, and future.

This neither confirms nor refutes a point I made. I'm not sure why this was posted here.

>True. Spells are named in such a fashion based on whoever created it and if they feel it reflected a typical gods will or used it in a particular fashion.

This, however, does, and reflects comprehension of the subject at hand. Good show.

>But it does... In the case of a paladin, a paladins ability to use holy mana is directly related to thier soul. If thier soul is bad they cannot cast spells at all. Check back in the paladin folder, old archived posts by GMs. There are some posts that directly reflect this thread disscussion and why holy mana/magic is different from other magics/mana.

A Paladin's soul state/magic difficulty correlation has nothing to do with the amount of Holy mana in his immediate vicinity--the ease or difficulty to percieve and manipulate the mana available is a function of him, not of the mana.

---

>ever have to quest for an elemental spell or offer your self to a diety to learn it?

Why would he? A War Mage's paradigm does not dictate that his will is focused via holy ritual. A War Mage learns to manipulate Elemental Mana--a base and unrefined form of mana, compared to Holy--through study of the Elements and their Planes, and is forced to quest (QUEST? WHAT?) for the Pathways if he wishes to properly refine his use of Elemental Mana.

>go through stuff about sky giant level for a 30th circle warmie to please some element to get a spell?

1) Things like these are the decision of the quest creator. If another Guild Team Leader wished for his guild to have the same experience, he would create something similar. Quests are not a point of debate in regard to Magic Theory.

2) Clerics are given no quest involving a spell and Sky Giant-level creatures at or near 30th circle.

>sorry but your definition of cleric spells are not supported by current mechanics.

If you'll recall, one of the first things I asked Heiu back when he was first on Team Cleric defined and clarified this in exactly the way I described. Feel free to go dig through the Cleric folders for it.

>Maybe just have a cleric walk up and ask a guild leader to get all spells from here on out and you would have a base for your aruguement. till then you don't.

Your character's will is weak, and without the proper trials and rituals he is not able to manipulate the (as delineated by what we have been told of Magic Theory by the GMs) most difficult wavelength of Elanthian mana to manipulate in such a powerful fashion.

>Holy spells are powered by devotion it has a HUGE effect on them, I disagree with it having so much of an effect on them because it is magic not a lore skill ect but that is not the way things are.

Devotion isn't a lore skill.

Between your shoddy knowledge of Magic Theory and your haphazard post construction, Cadderrly, I'm starting to wonder what gave you the idea that you might have it in you to school me.



RP Uber Alles,
~I.B.

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting.php

>Resurrection is available at 30th circle by a quest.

I thought that was 40th. Looks like the score is now 16,350 to 1 in my favor.


RP Uber Alles,
~I.B.

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting.php

That's because undead don't use holy mana, they use elemental.

>pow shylv
You perceive Elemental magic clinging to the transparent shylvic.
There are no spells on the transparent shylvic.
The transparent shylvic is preparing Curse of Zachriedek.
Roundtime: 10 Sec.

See, it all makes sense... :\

-Ghodbane

>You perceive Elemental magic clinging to the transparent shylvic.

Is that legit? If so, that's hilarious. Why aren't we seeing arms turning to ash and constant backfires and whatnot?


RP Uber Alles,
~I.B.

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting.php

Thought someone would get a kick out of that. I do agree with the undead being barred from holy magic. They are the last things I would expect to be wielding the magic of the holy. All the other magic types, especially necromancy, I expect to defend against when coming across the undead.

Anyway, that area below the Abyss was scary. My tower shield is fixed, no more bone golem dents! Really wish we ran into a blood wraith. Well that leaves something to look forward to next time.

-Ghodbane

>[Cadd]Resurrection is available at 30th circle by a quest.

>[IB]I thought that was 40th. Looks like the score is now 16,350 to 1 in my favor.

Pretty sure Cadderrly is correct on this one. 40th was the circle requirement for the interim version of resurrection. It was lowered for Resurrection v. 2.0. I'm not sure the exact circle req as I was over 40th when it was released, but it's under 40th.

~Heroiklim

>>go through stuff about sky giant level for a 30th circle warmie to please some element to get a spell?

>>1) Things like these are the decision of the quest creator. If another Guild Team Leader wished for his guild to have the same experience, he would create something similar. Quests are not a point of debate in regard to Magic Theory.

>>2) Clerics are given no quest involving a spell and Sky Giant-level creatures at or near 30th circle.

Ok... Time out here, cleric's have to go on quests about every second or third circle (not sure because I haven't actually gotten past one of the quests yet) And yes, they're not life endangering, but they are slightly challenging to figure out if you don't have help. Warmie's have quests they have to complete I don't know when, but I know there's a few of them. The insu something quest a cleric has to go on before they can do the reserection quest (which is 5 times more difficult than the insu something quest) is dangerous, I've helped save a few cleric's who died down there, and getting to them was half the trouble/danger.

Moon mages, even if I am one and love playing on, have three quests that I can remember, one is kinda dangerous, because we have to have a "thing" from a creature that can eat most people alive quickly and easily (I'd tell exactually on all the quests I know, but they're in game secrets). The second quest, it's not even close to dangerous, and i'm not honestly sure about the third since I haven't figured out if I want to actually get the spell that you get after completing the quest.

SO.... it would seem that all the magic prime guilds have their share of slightly annoying and kinda dangerous quests. Just my two coppers worth...


~
ask shadowling about toldorf

The shadowling babbles, "Bitomatoleetoo yomimo!"