As Moon Mages are "Masters of Power Perception" they get very few abilities along those lines that other guilds at least mimic. At 200 PP other magic guilds can see larger amounts of mana than a MM, who on most days, is still working with shimmering mana. Even with over 300 PP on some days you are still going to see that same shimmering mana. MM perceiving of mana is set up on a scale that requires 1200 PP to get the full extent of the system. It is only around 70th circle that mana starts to favor a MM and mana does not become an everyday concern. To work PP most MMs sit at the topiary and look at the animals to train the skill. Mana is the same in every room, and MMs are trying to work the skill seeing less mana than the other magic guilds, because that is all there is. MM perception is also on a timer for perceiving so we can not "power walk" and train only being able to wait or find other NPCs in order to keep training. Other guilds get the ability to increase the amount of mana in the rooms, allowing them to turn good mana rooms into great mana rooms and effectively able to train the skill easier than a supposed "Master" of the skill (with the same amount of ranks).

My question is why other guilds have a problem with the "Masters of Power Perception" to see other mana types in the room. This would help MMs learn PP and keep us from sitting in the topiary. Giving them the ability to power walk like all the other magic guilds. I have heard that some consider this to be too overpowering of an ability and was wondering why?


Stolas

There is knowledge hidden in the shadows

<<I see this as a major benefit. You don't have to walk around finding a good mana room to hunt. You don't have to walk to a better mana room to cast those mana intensive spells. If you choose to sit around in one room, call up a shadowling to help boost the mana, and find a bard with nexus (I think, don't have the song yet).

If you want to cast mana intensive spells you have to use cambrinth, until around 70th circle in PP, just because there isnt enough mana for you to cast them. So if you consider it a major benifit to see hazy and shimmering streams everywhere, unable to buff yourself with spells or to cast combat spells then you should try it. And shadowling is only usable half the day, during the night. Other magic guilds can at least find a room to buff up in and then go hunting, a MM never has that option.

<<I am a little confused how the 7+ methods of learning power perception isn't good enough. (Out of curiosity if you percieve someone else do you learn anything? If so, do that anywhere there is a crowd)

Because they are all on timers and imagine trying to learn PP while only seeing hazy or shimmering mana with close to 300 PP. You are not going to get anywhere near ML. That is why there are zoos. The system is broken for MM after a certain point.

<<For those guilds that power walk I don't think the amount of mana seen matters much on how well you learn, unless it is some calculation that draws on how much is possibly there.

Guilds besides MMs get to continually go from room to room perceiving while a MM is on a timer to work his skills with lousy mana. The so called "Masters" of an ability are actually a huge disadvantage. Think of it as a WM learning TM slower and harder than a Ranger or Paladins able to learn HA faster and easier than Clerics.

<<As for your question I'll make you a deal. Give other mana using guilds the ability to perceive spells on others and I will have no objection to you seeing other mana types.

The reason other guilds can not sense other types of mana, is because other guilds besides MMs can not see more than one type of mana. By increasing your ability to see your chosen mana type you give up the ability to see all other forms. MMs are not effected this way because they actually see 5 different types of mana just to be able to cast their spells. I dont know why magic users can not sense spells from the same form of mana type they practice, but in theory they should. But, if you dont know what elemental magic looks like, if you arent a WM or Bard how could you be able to perceive it in the first place?

A MM can sense individual forms of mana on people and the spells that they create, why can they not perceive the raw unfocused mana in the room? A "Master of Power Perception" should be able to do this?



Stolas

There is knowledge hidden in the shadows

The discussion in the MM folder wasn't to your liking?


Trebber

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Your mech lore ranks could care less if the paper is blue or plain.

GM XXXXXX "Well, we can't please everyone."

You say, "True, but that is no reason not to try."

<<This is a gross exaggeration. It is not nearly impossible for Moon Mages to learn PP in any way, shape, or form.

I did not say impossible ... I said that it was easier for other magic using guilds to learn PP, get more out of it at lower levels of the skill than a Moon Mage -- who is suppose to be a Master of the skill.

Stolas

There is knowledge hidden in the shadows

<<The discussion in the MM folder wasn't to your liking?

Someone over in the MM folder said that we didnt have the ability to perceive other mana types in the room because of other player's objections. I was just wondering what those objections were.

Evidently so far it is ... because one day MMs would get the ability to use the mana they are perceiving.

Stolas

There is knowledge hidden in the shadows

>>Moon Mages do know what it looks like ... they can perceive elemental magic from WMs and Bards just like they can perceive all the mana types clinging to magic users.

I cannot see gravity. However, I can measure the effect of gravity and make lots of nifty deductions based on that.

Moon Mages cannot see alternate forms of mana. However, due to their expertise in the field, they are able to pick out small hints of spell energy, the identity of standing spell patterns and even the signs that someone is holding mana by critically examining the target's aura.

-Armifer
"...and we shall be able to see the heavens more clearly, the heavens which, though they still may be cruel, nonetheless will not deny to us their eternal beauties." -Giovanni Boccaccio

<<Warrior Mages can ML PP easier than the Master of the skill, especially at lower ranks. WMs also have a spell to increase the amount of mana in the room just like the Masters of the skill. Only at around level 70 does a MM start competing with similar avaliable mana and that is with the MM having much more PP than the WM.

Why is your enjoyment of the game firmly entrenched in what another guild can or cannot do?


Trebber

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Your mech lore ranks could care less if the paper is blue or plain.

GM XXXXXX "Well, we can't please everyone."

You say, "True, but that is no reason not to try."

>>Why is your enjoyment of the game firmly entrenched in what another guild can or cannot do?

And off of misconceptions. Fissure is not something that someone with low skills is going to be able to obtain or use. Benefit from, yes, cast themselves, no.

Also, just to squash a misconception that someone is working under, it is entirely possible for anyone who has enough PP skill to see the duration of any spell on them, no matter who cast it on them.

I play a Warrior Mage, but my character was able to see the 8 roisaen duration on the Wolf Scent that someone cast on him to help him do some foraging a few days ago. ::shrug:: YMMV, but mana type doesn't affect seeing durations of any spell on your character.

So, instead of asking to see other mana types in free-floating form (not a good thing, as you would/should, IMO, suffer therefore from an inability to be able to manipulate your own form of mana correctly), you should look for ways to better learn on the fly that make sense.

To expand on my inability statement, for your edification, it would, IMO, be fairly obvious that as you start to see all forms of mana better, that you might start suffering from an inability to grab the correct form of mana for your magic, simply because you can see all types of mana, so might have to pass some sort of contest to make sure you are pulling the right kind.

Oh, and to shoot down another misconception, I have never learned any experience in a room that has NO mana available, even from spill-over, and there are still, at over 200 ranks of PP, plenty of those rooms still around.

And I always use Cambrinth when I want to do more than minimum casts, since the best room I can usually get to, only allows me to cap out SuF by burning up the majority of my mana in a single cast.

And I have never seen a room even that good in any of the hunting areas I am able to currently hunt in. And when my character was young, even with the serious overtraining I took him trough for PP (it was his first skill, by a significant margin, to 100 ranks) most hunting areas had, at best, only one or two rooms that had enough mana for sustained casting of minimum prep FSes. And then add in the time needed to power walk through the hunting area to FIND those rooms. :(

~Kyn (Kynevon)

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Info Page http://kynevon.info
Mac OS X FE http://tinyurl.com/9xjyj
Amagaim's What to Hunt Chart
Excel format: http://tinyurl.com/44jlt
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<<Why is your enjoyment of the game firmly entrenched in what another guild can or cannot do?

It isnt, but dont you think a so called, Master of Power Perception should actually be one? The other guilds abilities and capabilities are used as a reference point for comparisions, Trebber.

Are there other guilds that fit into the niche of ... so called "Masters of 'X'" that have the same problems that MMs have with PP? It would be like calling WMs "Masters of TM" and then giving Clerics greater ease to learn the skill and better spells in which to learn them.

Again, all I am asking is why people have a problem with MMs being able to perceive different types of available room mana. Since it was said on the MM boards that this ideas was offered up in the past and then shot down due to player outcry. I just never saw how it was unbalancing just to be able to sense it.

Stolas

There is knowledge hidden in the shadows

>did something happen to make shadowlings suddenly stop teaching stalk/hiding/pp until infinity or is this guy just not training right.

Yes, good thing you can keep casting them until infinity.

Lyonet

Stolas- personally I would have no objection to MM being able to perceive other mana in a room. I just don't buy the rest of your arguement. You have offered your opinions but there sure doesn't seem to be any shortage of moonies hunting just fine- at all circles.

You have brought the same arguement from the moon mage folders, ostensibly just to ask what objections there are to your idea. But as you have noticed- people are objecting more to your generalization than what you presented as your question.

Okay I know I'm late to the thread, I just got back from a little vacation.

>> I am a little confused how the 7+ methods of learning power perception isn't good enough.

Tell me how perceiving the mana in only 7 rooms works for you at 200, 300, 500+ ranks? I'm curious.

Yes, it's quite possible to train with just the books, but it's a pain in the ass (to put it bluntly) to nail down the timers to make training remotely efficient. That is exactly what you have to do, though, if you don't wish to sit in front of NPCs all day, and this becomes more and more true the higher your ranks are. I know of no other system that forces you to be so precise with timers to learn efficiently.

I'm hoping for two things with power perception...I want more ways (efficient ways) of learning it and I want it to do more for us. I'm hoping the Ways will address both of these, but there are a lot of neat abilities that could be added to the system in the mean time. Like being able to perceive the owners of Warrior Mage familiars. Still waiting on that one...

---

Rev. Reene, player of a few

Kystrk quietly says, "I'm going to burn this place down"
>
Kystrk takes a sip of his water.

Or how about the planets since from what I understand as you gain more ranks of PP, moon mages start to draw mana from them.

Nikpack
player of Celeiros and Makona

"I would suggest taking everything as some sort of IC bias unless you see something which seems to offer incontrovertible proof of an OOC issue." -- Navak

>>Or how about the planets since from what I understand as you gain more ranks of PP, moon mages start to draw mana from them.

We can already do that. It doesn't teach much, and is not useful.

Okay this is so silly, Power Percpetion is a simple skill to learn yeah it takes a little bit to realize what works the very best.

Planets
Books of mana which i think is 5
Watcher
Each moon 3 of those up or not can still check
Shadowling
Shadow servant
Area
Moonbeam
NPC

Honestly My moonmage has progressed though Powerperception ranks rather easily and still works PP without having to sit in a zoo or use NPC's. Learning Power Perception as a Moonmage is defniately not broken.


The Dragon priest hisses, "We'd have won, too, if it weren't for thossse meddling kidsss."
>

I made it to almost 300 ranks of PP without even realizing people had problems with it. Never used NPC's, shadow servants, or anything else.

All I did was perceive everything I could, and then cast a spell and start it over. I had more PP than any other magic. Yeah.. it's time consuming, and it could use some tweaking. But it's not broken to the point that moon mages will never be able to learn their most blessed skill.

-Wighten

i want to percieve the sun to tell when it will rise and when it will set


--
Treat empaths with respect, you'll live longer
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http://people.1up.com/do/my1Up?publicUserId=5198137

Or train scholarship and use TIME.

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Rev. Reene, player of a few

Kystrk quietly says, "I'm going to burn this place down"
>
Kystrk takes a sip of his water.

<< i want to percieve the sun to tell when it will rise and when it will set

>perceive sun
You begin to closely observe the sun...
The sun lands a massive hit to your left eye, burning it badly, as you completely fail to evade.
The sun lands an annihilating hit to your right eye (Mom always told you not to look at the sun), leaving it a burnt cinder, as you completely fail to evade, severely stunning you!
[You are not very bright, and in terrible position.]

Arcelebor

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"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."
PSA - Sakhara's definition of RP (like many things) is erroneous

Gotta love it when people miss the point...

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Rev. Reene, player of a few

Kystrk quietly says, "I'm going to burn this place down"
>
Kystrk takes a sip of his water.