For RP purposes and general understanding of the Guilds, I've been trying to sort through what's supposed to power the different Guild specific abilities in game.
Returning to DR after a long hiatus and making sure I didn't miss something in between.
In the big picture, magic is a thing, spells exist, and some Guilds specialize in this more than others.
For some magic Guilds, there's a special confound that interacts above and beyond their simple magic casting side, giving them access to signature spells and just general RP lore of what makes them cool.
For some (all?) of the Guilds with a confound, the confound also powers other Guild specific abilities (Clerics-Devotion-Communes, Warrior Mages-Elemental Charge-Elemental Stuff, etc.).
There are also Guild specific skills that play into Guild specific abilities (Clerics-Theurgy, Warrior Mages-Summoning, etc.)
Does that generally cover it?
It seems like all of the confounds and Guild specific skills run along a range from the not yet introduced (Trader Magic) to the outdated (are Bards still supposed to have these Nagas running around) to really fleshed out (Moon Mages).
THETECHNOCRACY
ISHARON
Re: Sources of Guild Specific Abilities
06/21/2015 09:53 PM CDT
>>Thetechnocracy: For some magic Guilds, there's a special confound that interacts above and beyond their simple magic casting side, giving them access to signature spells and just general RP lore of what makes them cool.
All magic users have confounds; some have just been developed more than others.
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Magical_theory#Confounds
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All magic users have confounds; some have just been developed more than others.
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Magical_theory#Confounds
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
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JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Sources of Guild Specific Abilities
06/22/2015 08:33 AM CDT
Don't forget that many guilds have guild specific abilities that tie into but are not on the core system. While this is of course subject to change, some of these are quite potent (and some are of course not) -
Paladins have LEAD and SMITE
Barbarians have WHIRLWIND, DUAL LOAD, and large weapon offhand.
Bards have screams
Rangers have BESEECH
Moon Mages have the prediction system
Traders have SPECULATE
Thieves have [somethingsomethingsomething]
Warmies have pathways
I may have missed a few.
BADGOPHER
Re: Sources of Guild Specific Abilities
06/22/2015 03:20 PM CDT
>Thieves have [somethingsomethingsomething]
Thieves have khri, ambush, snipe, backstab. I'm not sure any of those arguably use any confound, unless we're going to broadly define 'stealth and backstab' as the thief confound.
Thieves have khri, ambush, snipe, backstab. I'm not sure any of those arguably use any confound, unless we're going to broadly define 'stealth and backstab' as the thief confound.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Sources of Guild Specific Abilities
06/22/2015 03:27 PM CDT
I was going for secrecy, but yeah.
Sign language, passages, contacts, lockpick carving, loading bonus while hiding.
Survival primes and Bards also get some fun Slips.
Sign language, passages, contacts, lockpick carving, loading bonus while hiding.
Survival primes and Bards also get some fun Slips.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Sources of Guild Specific Abilities
06/22/2015 03:28 PM CDT
And yes, some of those are tied to Confidence, which is, I believe, the Thief confound.
THAYET
Re: Sources of Guild Specific Abilities
06/22/2015 03:39 PM CDT
"Confound" is an IC term referring to something supernatural that augments magic.
The closest thing Thieves have to a confound is whatever mysterious force powers their khri.
Thayet
Follow @thayelf on Twitter for absolutely nothing of any value whatsoever!
The closest thing Thieves have to a confound is whatever mysterious force powers their khri.
Thayet
Follow @thayelf on Twitter for absolutely nothing of any value whatsoever!
DR-RAESH
Re: Sources of Guild Specific Abilities
06/22/2015 03:43 PM CDT
The concept of a confound isn't terribly meaningful to an NMU.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
KUYKEND9
Re: Sources of Guild Specific Abilities
06/22/2015 04:40 PM CDT
>> The concept of a confound isn't terribly meaningful to an NMU.
It could be a usable term for explaining why non-Barbarians can't roar and non-Thieves can't... shadowy secret stuff.
I
Kneebiter Zhunee just arrived.
R>
Zhunee glances around the room and says, "Someone pull my finger."
R>
Kneebiter Zhunee runs west.
It could be a usable term for explaining why non-Barbarians can't roar and non-Thieves can't... shadowy secret stuff.
I
Kneebiter Zhunee just arrived.
R>
Zhunee glances around the room and says, "Someone pull my finger."
R>
Kneebiter Zhunee runs west.
THETECHNOCRACY
Re: Sources of Guild Specific Abilities
06/22/2015 06:31 PM CDT
>>Paladins have LEAD and SMITE
>>Barbarians have WHIRLWIND, DUAL LOAD, and large weapon offhand.
>>Bards have screams
>>Rangers have BESEECH
>>Moon Mages have the prediction system
>>Traders have SPECULATE
>>Thieves have [somethingsomethingsomething]
>>Warmies have pathways
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in these cases the ability is either drawing/dependent on their Guild specific skill and/or their Guild specific special power source, ex. Paladin Soul State, Warrior Mage Elemental Charge, Moon Mage Prediction Pool, Bard Mojo, Thief Reputation, etc.
My understanding is that the thrust of development is to get all Guild specific spells under the umbrella of "you can't cast this because you don't have the confound" and all Guild specific abilities under the umbrella "uses Guild specific skill and/or Guild specific power source, which in some Guilds is clearly linked to confound (ex. Clerics-Devotuion-Theurgy)."
Just in some cases, there's a separation. Bardic abilities will use the Bardic Lore and the Mojo Pool, but the confound are these crazy Naga.
Seems like the Magic primary Guilds have the closest link between Guild Skill, Guild Power Source, and Guild Confound, while some of the other Guilds are fuzzy ...
Moon Mage: Consistent, link to Plane of Probability, Prediction system.
Cleric: Consistent, link to divine, devotion to Immortals.
Warrior Mage: Consistent, link to Elemental Plane, summoning skill/Elemental Charge pool.
Empaths: Consistent, Empathy/Empathic Link consistent all around.
Rangers: Consistent? Attunement to wilderness?
Paladins: Consistent, Soul State is confound.
Necromancers: Consistent? Corrupted Empathic link, blind manipulation of life?
Traders: Inconsistent (eventually), Trading skill has nothing to do with Magic confound ... yet?
Bards: Inconsistent, Naga totally separate from Bardic Lore and Mojo.
Does this look about right?
>>Barbarians have WHIRLWIND, DUAL LOAD, and large weapon offhand.
>>Bards have screams
>>Rangers have BESEECH
>>Moon Mages have the prediction system
>>Traders have SPECULATE
>>Thieves have [somethingsomethingsomething]
>>Warmies have pathways
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in these cases the ability is either drawing/dependent on their Guild specific skill and/or their Guild specific special power source, ex. Paladin Soul State, Warrior Mage Elemental Charge, Moon Mage Prediction Pool, Bard Mojo, Thief Reputation, etc.
My understanding is that the thrust of development is to get all Guild specific spells under the umbrella of "you can't cast this because you don't have the confound" and all Guild specific abilities under the umbrella "uses Guild specific skill and/or Guild specific power source, which in some Guilds is clearly linked to confound (ex. Clerics-Devotuion-Theurgy)."
Just in some cases, there's a separation. Bardic abilities will use the Bardic Lore and the Mojo Pool, but the confound are these crazy Naga.
Seems like the Magic primary Guilds have the closest link between Guild Skill, Guild Power Source, and Guild Confound, while some of the other Guilds are fuzzy ...
Moon Mage: Consistent, link to Plane of Probability, Prediction system.
Cleric: Consistent, link to divine, devotion to Immortals.
Warrior Mage: Consistent, link to Elemental Plane, summoning skill/Elemental Charge pool.
Empaths: Consistent, Empathy/Empathic Link consistent all around.
Rangers: Consistent? Attunement to wilderness?
Paladins: Consistent, Soul State is confound.
Necromancers: Consistent? Corrupted Empathic link, blind manipulation of life?
Traders: Inconsistent (eventually), Trading skill has nothing to do with Magic confound ... yet?
Bards: Inconsistent, Naga totally separate from Bardic Lore and Mojo.
Does this look about right?
DR-RAESH
Re: Sources of Guild Specific Abilities
06/22/2015 07:32 PM CDT
This is a little confusing because there's two active threads on this topic right now. The short version is that some of the confounds aren't well defined right now. In particular no one has really defined the Ranger confound and the Bard confound is kinda sorta music. Ish.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
THETECHNOCRACY
Re: Sources of Guild Specific Abilities
06/22/2015 08:02 PM CDT
>>This is a little confusing because there's two active threads on this topic right now. The short version is that some of the confounds aren't well defined right now. In particular no one has really defined the Ranger confound and the Bard confound is kinda sorta music. Ish.
Sorry, was trying to ask some Guild-wide questions in one folder, Bard-specific questions in another, but they converged.
Sorry, was trying to ask some Guild-wide questions in one folder, Bard-specific questions in another, but they converged.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Sources of Guild Specific Abilities
06/22/2015 08:46 PM CDT
>Raesh - The concept of a confound isn't terribly meaningful to an NMU.
IIRC, Thieves Confidence most certainly affects their ability to do stuff and things, and some of those things are their Khri.
>THETECHNOCRACY - Does this look about right?
I think it might be worth mechanically and thematically separating the conversation. Mechanically, most confounds exist as a method for forcing most guilds to 'do the thing' that sort of characterizes that guild. Clerics have to do holy stuff for Theurgy, Moonies have to do Fate stuff for Astrology, Traders have to Trade, etc. If you don't spend time doing the thing, you can't circle - Empaths need Empathy to circle, and they train Empathy by doing Empath stuff. Etc.
Some of those guild skills tie into the guild specific abilities - Yes, only Clerics can cast Resurrection is at it's core just another spell in the magic system, whereas COMMUNE MERAUD is something kind of sort of different.
Thematically somethingsomethingsomething the true essence of the study of the guild is to hone the skill that is related to the confound or somethignsomething.
I am of course probably wrong about the thematic portion here.
IIRC, Thieves Confidence most certainly affects their ability to do stuff and things, and some of those things are their Khri.
>THETECHNOCRACY - Does this look about right?
I think it might be worth mechanically and thematically separating the conversation. Mechanically, most confounds exist as a method for forcing most guilds to 'do the thing' that sort of characterizes that guild. Clerics have to do holy stuff for Theurgy, Moonies have to do Fate stuff for Astrology, Traders have to Trade, etc. If you don't spend time doing the thing, you can't circle - Empaths need Empathy to circle, and they train Empathy by doing Empath stuff. Etc.
Some of those guild skills tie into the guild specific abilities - Yes, only Clerics can cast Resurrection is at it's core just another spell in the magic system, whereas COMMUNE MERAUD is something kind of sort of different.
Thematically somethingsomethingsomething the true essence of the study of the guild is to hone the skill that is related to the confound or somethignsomething.
I am of course probably wrong about the thematic portion here.
DR-RAESH
Re: Sources of Guild Specific Abilities
06/22/2015 09:03 PM CDT
>>IIRC, Thieves Confidence most certainly affects their ability to do stuff and things, and some of those things are their Khri.
Sure, but that's not a confound in the sense we're talking about. That's like saying fatigue or concentration is a confound for any spellcaster.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
Sure, but that's not a confound in the sense we're talking about. That's like saying fatigue or concentration is a confound for any spellcaster.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
THETECHNOCRACY
Re: Sources of Guild Specific Abilities
06/22/2015 10:10 PM CDT
>>I think it might be worth mechanically and thematically separating the conversation. Mechanically, most confounds exist as a method for forcing most guilds to 'do the thing' that sort of characterizes that guild. Clerics have to do holy stuff for Theurgy, Moonies have to do Fate stuff for Astrology, Traders have to Trade, etc. If you don't spend time doing the thing, you can't circle - Empaths need Empathy to circle, and they train Empathy by doing Empath stuff. Etc.
I think the issue is everyone has to do some things in order to Circle, and at least in a perfect world whatever you're doing to "do the thing" you have to do is helping you do the "cool things" your Guild is known for. In some Guilds, that "do the thing" skill also helps explain why your Guild does some cool stuff above and beyond just "wiggling fingers" and casting spells, it explains why your spells are special.
But long long ago, in a galaxy far away, there were exceptions, or I just thought there were exceptions. Is the general sense now that either you're training a skill to circle, which also feeds into your abilities, or you're doing what you're supposed to do to make sure your Soul State/Devotion/Prediction Pool/Elemental Charge/What else?? is full? There's not a widespread Guild-specific ability that's using non-Guild specific skills or special supernatural pool?
Just before I get too deep into a new character I didn't want to find out "Oh, you like X, sorry, well X isn't based on ever other ability in the Guild, it's based on surprising old system A, B, and C."
I think the issue is everyone has to do some things in order to Circle, and at least in a perfect world whatever you're doing to "do the thing" you have to do is helping you do the "cool things" your Guild is known for. In some Guilds, that "do the thing" skill also helps explain why your Guild does some cool stuff above and beyond just "wiggling fingers" and casting spells, it explains why your spells are special.
But long long ago, in a galaxy far away, there were exceptions, or I just thought there were exceptions. Is the general sense now that either you're training a skill to circle, which also feeds into your abilities, or you're doing what you're supposed to do to make sure your Soul State/Devotion/Prediction Pool/Elemental Charge/What else?? is full? There's not a widespread Guild-specific ability that's using non-Guild specific skills or special supernatural pool?
Just before I get too deep into a new character I didn't want to find out "Oh, you like X, sorry, well X isn't based on ever other ability in the Guild, it's based on surprising old system A, B, and C."
NINEVAH1
Re: Sources of Guild Specific Abilities
06/22/2015 10:25 PM CDT
>>Just before I get too deep into a new character I didn't want to find out "Oh, you like X, sorry, well X isn't based on ever other ability in the Guild, it's based on surprising old system A, B, and C."
You will run into this in just about every guild except maybe Barbarians and Necromancers, and only because both of them have been written from the ground up in the past 5-6 years.
You will run into this in just about every guild except maybe Barbarians and Necromancers, and only because both of them have been written from the ground up in the past 5-6 years.
ROBERTDH
Re: Sources of Guild Specific Abilities
06/23/2015 03:01 AM CDT
Confounds are a scientific magical term for the extra-mana forces that prevent one mystic tradition from successfully casting a spell from the same pattern of mana, all else being equal.
Hedgewizard X could theoretically produce a Ressurection pattern, but the Ressurection pattern on its own does nothing meaningful. Only the Cleric's divine confound supplies the missing "non-magical" components.
Or something.
Non-thieves could theoretically learn inner magic, but then the guild would murder them for trademark infringement. The guilds are all in the business of monopolizing their secrets. See also: empaths.
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
Hedgewizard X could theoretically produce a Ressurection pattern, but the Ressurection pattern on its own does nothing meaningful. Only the Cleric's divine confound supplies the missing "non-magical" components.
Or something.
Non-thieves could theoretically learn inner magic, but then the guild would murder them for trademark infringement. The guilds are all in the business of monopolizing their secrets. See also: empaths.
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Sources of Guild Specific Abilities
06/23/2015 07:16 AM CDT
>Sure, but that's not a confound in the sense we're talking about. That's like saying fatigue or concentration is a confound for any spellcaster.
Ok. I'd have considered them similar insofar as being more akin to a Clerics Devotion or a Bards Mojo, that is, a separate pool that ties into some guild specific abilities, and when zeroed, blocks out some of those abilities. It's dissimilar from mana, concentration or fatigue however because it isn't used to fuel spells/khris/attacks.
>Just before I get too deep into a new character I didn't want to find out "Oh, you like X, sorry, well X isn't based on ever other ability in the Guild, it's based on surprising old system A, B, and C."
Yeah, well, read up I guess. If you don't like observing the skies, Moon Mages probably aren't for you! If you don't play playing instruments, Bards aren't for you! If you don't like massaging altars and praying, veto Clerics! Virtually all guilds have some task that is required of them, it's just a matter of flavoring. Some guilds task can be learned in combat. Some can't.
Personally, I think it's worth checking out all guilds.
THETECHNOCRACY
Re: Sources of Guild Specific Abilities
06/23/2015 07:27 AM CDT
>>Ok. I'd have considered them similar insofar as being more akin to a Clerics Devotion or a Bards Mojo, that is, a separate pool that ties into some guild specific abilities, and when zeroed, blocks out some of those abilities. It's dissimilar from mana, concentration or fatigue however because it isn't used to fuel spells/khris/attacks.
Bardic Mojo is used in screams though, which is an attack.
Bardic Mojo is used in screams though, which is an attack.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Sources of Guild Specific Abilities
06/23/2015 08:10 AM CDT
SCREAM HAVOC and SCREAM DEFIANCE are not attacks. SCREAM CONCUSSION is.
Havoc if anything is more akin to a Debil. Defiance is more akin to an... Aug?
ASTARIN2
Re: Sources of Guild Specific Abilities
06/23/2015 09:39 AM CDT
SCREAM DEFIANCE is probably more Utility/Warding. Stun break + improves balance + (very short lasting) damage barrier. I think Raesh said the damage barrier part of Defiance is about on par with Calcified Hide.
