There's two answers to this. The more correct answer, the one you don't seem to be accepting, is that it uses TM because it's a TM spell, something that is both skill-based and less limited than an SvA spell, and a fundamental perk of magic prime guilds, and most specifically the Warrior Mage guild. It's that way because it was designed to be.

The other answer, the 'RP' answer, could be any number of things. I personally favor the example given in the Amber Diceless RPG main book, regarding an invisible character attacking Benedict from behind. The example goes like so:
Player, invisible: "Okay. As Benedict passes by me, I stab him in the back with my sword."
GM: "Just as you make your move, Benedict turns and parries your blade with his own in one smooth motion."
Player: "But I was invisible! How could he have expected such an attack?"
GM: "He's just that good."

The book goes further on with this example by demonstrating what a Benedict-like master of combat would unconsciously do to size up a room. "Okay, the mariachi band is over there, the guacamole is on the table right there, judging by the crowd pattern and the host's response, the trapdoor is three steps to my left, the assassin is hiding behind those hangings, and the host is in on the whole thing."

What does this have to do with DR? It's obviously a supernatural game, but you seem to be placing mundane limitations on applications of that supernatural power. Fire Rain hits all targets regardless of hidden/invisibility/unhidden status, yet nobody complains nearly as much about the fact that it's an area of effect TM spell like CL. If Fire Rain is just a bunch of small fireballs raining from the sky, how could TM increase the accuracy of the fireballs hitting the target and thereby make a high-circle mage's Fire Rain more effective than a low-circle mages at the same power?

Because TM skill, like ranged weapons and melee skills, is not just about hitting a fixed target. It includes the concept of predicting a target's movement, the psychological doublethink that happens unconsciously in combat. This is why Fire Rain increases in accuracy with higher TM - the caster gains a better understanding of how to lay down a dispersal pattern that is more difficult to avoid, and so forth. Certainly, though, there isn't a targetting matrix involved with every single stupid droplet

But what does this have to do with Chain lightning? After all, it's not an indiscriminate spell like Fire Rain. But the same theory applies as to why TM is used regarding the single bolt involved in chain lightning.

---

Orpheus: "You've been powering this machine with a forsaken child?"
Venture: "What? It's not like I used the whole thing."

well it sure dont lower the accuracy much ive never seen a mage target CL, ive been hit by non targetted CL by someone who misses full targetted LBs on me

and why doesnt it jump back to cast after it finds me, the reason stealth doesnt fail randomly on twigs is the same reason casting spells and fighting in combat dont, playability

i hardly thing keeping CL in the same nature as every other spell or keeping realism with it would make ruin the entire magic system, which has far more offensive and defensive power then any mundane system already


Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.

>Spells have a maximum cap for mana, and therefore a maximum cap for their effects.

>Weapons increase in potential damage for every rank of skill, and every point of Strength and Agility.

>Armor, Parry and Shield all increase in potential defense for every rank of skill, and every point of Reflex.

>Evasion increases in potential defense for every rank of skill, and every point of Reflex.

>Vitality increases in potential for every point of Stamina.

>In other words, magic across the board is severely limited in its potential, especially when compared to any of the mundane skills.

Uh.. spells increase in potential damage (or accuracy, at the least, leading to more damage) with every rank of the appropriate magic skill, and every point of the appropriate mental stat.

Being able to pump extra mana into a spell is a nice bonus. It's so you put extra power into them at the expense of running out of mana quicker. Granted it might be conceivable for a Mage to get to the point that he could constantly fire off max prep spells and never run out of mana (good luck..) and therefor not have a downside to doing so, but hey, that sounds like a nice perk for having that much skill.

Dragoonseal

>Just FYI: Potential damage for any spell is determined by the amount of mana put into it

Just FYI: Potential damage means nothing without TM to back it up.

You seem to be trying to make it seem like TM does nothing, and that after someone reaches some theoretical amount of defenses that no amount of TM will let you overcome them and hit/injure/one-hit kill them simply because you were at the cap of how much extra mana you could pump into the spell. This is simply not the case.

Dragoonseal

>You seem to be trying to make it seem like TM does nothing, and that after someone reaches some theoretical amount of defenses that no amount of TM will let you overcome them and hit/injure/one-hit kill them simply because you were at the cap of how much extra mana you could pump into the spell. This is simply not the case.

>Dragoonseal

>Barbarian MR? After a point, no amount of extra mana or TM skill will let a mage with tons more offensive magic and stats, hit a Dragon dancing barbarian. Precisely because of the mana cap. From what I've seen others post. It takes mana to overcome MR, but with spell caps, how does one defeat the ever increasing MR?
It is simply the case.

>Targoth

You defeat ever increasing MR with ever increasing PM and mana.
You defeat ever increasing defenses with ever increasing TM and mana.

You defeat ever increasing PM and mana with ever increasing MR.
You defeat ever increasing TM and mana with ever increasing defenses.

Aren't skill based games fun?

How much mana you can pump into spells is capped, but your PM and TM skills are not, and neither are your mental stats. Sucks when you have to rely on your skills, doesn't it? So like I said before, that is simply not the case.

Dragoonseal

>That all, of course, creates an obvious problem: If MR scales at a constant rate, designed to be relative to the rate at which PM and mana combined scale...what happens when mana no longer contributes, yet the rate at which MR scales remains the same?

Actually I don't feel MR (or more specifically, I guess this is really just about BMR) scales at a rate to keep up with PM and mana combined, though I'm not sure if this is by design or not. At low, mid, and to a point higher circle ranges PM and mana combined seem to always easily out pace (boosted) BMR (let alone poor normal MR) and mages can usually bust through it. But then at higher circles when they start to hit the mana caps, and combined Barb's usually extremely high defenses by then, things finally start to even out more.

Past that though, I can only take guesses, since we don't have circle 200+ people running around. My guess would be that Barbs would continue to have the upper hand at those much higher circles while using their highest BMR boosting abilities, which in my opinion is as it should be for such a high Barbarian using their highest abilities. However, my hope is that it wouldn't be one sided one way or the other.

Dragoonseal

>You honestly have little to no comprehension of what eventually happens to it. It gets to a point where they'll dodge TM spells from similar-level mages with evasion stanced to 0 - at least while dancing.

Hm, I'll have to call the buzzer on that one. I recall that thread in the BMR folder and your posts, and it was DFA SvA spell(s), Burn specifically.

The majority of it was on page 10 and 11 in the BMR folder, here: http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=14&topic=9&page=10 (Starts closer to the bottom of page 10)

I think the main reason has to do with how those DFA SvA spells don't have a targeted matrix, and can even be resisted in their entirety (motes of light).

And this does not change my opinion in the least, nor does your attempt at insult.

Dragoonseal

Yes, I did (in fact, the more interesting posts are on that page), and there was no mention from you that he had anything less than full stances, he was simply stunned (which doesn't mean much more than being badly balanced). I didn't see any message about the spell being fully prepped either.

<Shrug>

Agree to disagree I guess, you feel (boosted) BMR is too high at highest levels, and I feel (boosted) BMR is too low at higher mid ranged level and below. Sounds like a typical Mage/Barb disagreement to me.

Dragoonseal

BMR is non-linear is really the only thing. While base BMR is linear different abilities multiply this number by different amounts lower level abilities will do this to a lesser degree then higher level abilities. Because of the higher level skills boosting more then lower ones it makes the chart of Boosted BMR non-linear.

You don't resist targetted spells you resist their target pattern, if you can make a contested spell fizzle you can make a target pattern go so off course it misses you completely even if your just standing their picking your nose

> You honestly have little to no comprehension of what eventually happens to it. It gets to a point where they'll dodge TM spells from similar-level mages with evasion stanced to 0 - at least while dancing.

That's exactly what I feel too. I remember the test done with the barb dancing dragon, evasion stance 0, and wearing no armor. With a more skilled mage. The mage couldn't hit the barb. Spells cap, because of mana. There's only so much we can put into a spell, he thinks skills help over MR.

Targoth

exam hide
You can't see a tanned shaggy black hide clearly here.
You see nothing unusual.

then again why does it hit me and not the caster if im standing at melee grappled to him


Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.

> I'm not going to argue this simple truth with you. Dragoonseal

Whatever.

Targoth

exam hide
You can't see a tanned shaggy black hide clearly here.
You see nothing unusual.

I'd like to contribute to the fund that will build a sign outside the gate to peccs in Rossman's, another right outside the gate to Ruined Village and maybe one nailed to the front door of the manor in Ruined Village.

I think it should say something like .... "Warning! War Mages are practising their craft, enter at your own risk!

I quit using CL because I felt sorry for all the folks that I frostbite first then wacked with CL. After going through these discussions, I think I'm gonna give up fire and go back to what I enjoyed most. I'm a master craftsman at what I do, and I think I'm going to go back to what I do best.

Regards,

Thunndir and Sparky

ps
let me know where to leave the coin for the signs....

Good point, more signs are better, maybe we should have some kind of warning like the warmie guild down in shard, ya stand in front of that place too long and poof!

Sparky (Thunndir is in the can)