I really feel like the risk vs reward is off on high-level boxes. I can hunt 24/7 for a month and not die. But then I go to back train boxes a little and I'm getting killed every few days. (I don't have exact stats, but I've died 6 or 7 times in the last couple weeks to boxes.)
R>disarm my casket identify
Right above the lock inside the keyhole, you see a tiny metal tube just poking out of a small wad of brown clay.
The copper casket's trap is a trivially constructed gadget which you can take down any time.
Roundtime: 2 sec.
>disarm my casket quick
You quickly work at disarming the casket.
With ever so much agility, you stick your fingernail into the tip of the clay and gently slide the tiny tube out of it and toss it aside. Hrrrm, on second thought perhaps that wasn't a good idea.
Roundtime: 5 seconds.
As soon as you look up, your entire world explodes in a crash of deafening sound and searing heat. You barely have time to register that perhaps you shouldn't be handling things way out of your league before oblivion takes you.
You manage to clutch onto a poorly made copper casket as you gasp your last!
The cysts in your eye pop one after another, deflated of their wondrous magic.
Your lesser, Human sight returns.
An unpleasant sensation jolts through your body as your mutation fades, leaving you feeling briefly weakened as well as slower.
The rhythmic thrum flowing through your body lingers with a fading warmth like the last rays of the setting sun.
There's an odd jolting sensation as your mutative magic reverses itself, the unnatural light fading from your eyes as the insight into physiology quickly vanishes.
The air around you shimmers with a weak yellow light that quickly disperses.
Your body rumbles, sending several short spasms of agony through you, as the ridges encompassing your form recede and vanish.
You feel the knowledge of the Drums of the Snake spell slip from your mind.
Your death cry echoes in your brain as it quickly dawns on you that you have just died! Already, you feel the tug of eternity upon your soul and you struggle to remain tied to this world.
I feel like death should only be a likely outcome if you're above your skill level. The problem is, certain traps just don't seem to scale damage well. Death is too likely when you set one of these traps off. I'm especially thinking concussion and shrapnel traps.
The failure message sounds like I had some kind of critical failure. This should be extremely rare for a trap that is trivial for my skill. I guess it just seems like the damage scaling is way off. I don't mind tripping some traps. I just don't think that they should all be fatal.
Relevant details: Xala'shar thrall/magus boxes
Locksmithing: 915 (+183 Locksmithing) = 1098 effective ranks
Strength : 100 Reflex : 105 +21
Agility : 105 +21 Charisma : 100
Discipline : 100 Wisdom : 100
Intelligence : 100 Stamina : 105 +21
Alternately, if some skill (evasion?) could help lessen the impact of deadly traps, that would be awesome. As it is, I'm just dropping certain boxes now. It just isn't worth the risk of death.
DRSCOTT
UFTIMF2P
Re: Boxes, and deadly traps
05/11/2017 10:16 AM CDT
I will second this. Concussion traps are insta kill at 100 stamina, and they seem to make up a very large percentage of the total boxes of cabalists. They just are not worth the risk.
SEPED
Re: Boxes, and deadly traps
05/11/2017 11:04 AM CDT
I'm popping xala boxes with similar skills, and I just don't use disarm quick, it's not worth the risk. Insta death boxes get disarm careful and I haven't had a death from boxes in months.
DRSCOTT
Re: Boxes, and deadly traps
05/11/2017 11:02 PM CDT
I've died from disarm careful on similar traps as well. I think your anecdote speaks to my point nicely. Deadly traps seem too binary right now.
DRSCOTT
Re: Boxes, and deadly traps
05/12/2017 09:48 AM CDT
I want to clarify my complaint a little.
As you get into higher and higher tiers of boxes, more and more of the traps are of the certain death variety. It would be awesome if there were a stat chance to having a chance at survival. It just seems wrong to have stamina be meaningless in this case. 126 effective stamina, which is well above the average for this level of box, should give you some chance of survival.
Basically, there's a reason why almost everyone except thieves abandon boxes at some point. I think that's a shame. Boxes have always been one of my favorite parts of DR. <insert fond memories of pet boxes and doors>
As you get into higher and higher tiers of boxes, more and more of the traps are of the certain death variety. It would be awesome if there were a stat chance to having a chance at survival. It just seems wrong to have stamina be meaningless in this case. 126 effective stamina, which is well above the average for this level of box, should give you some chance of survival.
Basically, there's a reason why almost everyone except thieves abandon boxes at some point. I think that's a shame. Boxes have always been one of my favorite parts of DR. <insert fond memories of pet boxes and doors>
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Boxes, and deadly traps
05/12/2017 10:49 AM CDT
Locksmithing should function as offense/defense when opening boxes. Maybe thrown in a touch of Athletics into the defense formula, too.
That way, failing to open a Xala'shar box as a newbie would be the same as failing to dodge a Xala'shar as a newbie, but being hit by a Xala'shar trap when you're "at-level", locksmithing-wise, isn't leaps and bounds more dangerous than failing to dodge one in combat.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
That way, failing to open a Xala'shar box as a newbie would be the same as failing to dodge a Xala'shar as a newbie, but being hit by a Xala'shar trap when you're "at-level", locksmithing-wise, isn't leaps and bounds more dangerous than failing to dodge one in combat.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
STELLARMAGUS
Re: Boxes, and deadly traps
05/12/2017 12:24 PM CDT
I like the idea of a majority of traps being deadly if sprung (what's the point of a trapping a treasure chest with a non-lethal trap? A practical joke?) This sounds like it might be a bit overkill, though. The formula could probably use some tweaking?
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Boxes, and deadly traps
05/12/2017 12:31 PM CDT
>>I like the idea of a majority of traps being deadly if sprung (what's the point of a trapping a treasure chest with a non-lethal trap? A practical joke?)
I don't think anyone is saying they shouldn't be deadly, but the argument (that I support) is that players should be able to reduce the damage it is capable of doing via skill. It's no different than not being one-shot when a high-level player fails to dodge a high-level critter's attack. While the hit could explode a lower level player, it isn't as deadly for someone with the skill to better mitigate it.
>>This sounds like it might be a bit overkill, though. The formula could probably use some tweaking?
Basically, yeah. Box traps are essentially still set in "zoha-crit" mode.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
I don't think anyone is saying they shouldn't be deadly, but the argument (that I support) is that players should be able to reduce the damage it is capable of doing via skill. It's no different than not being one-shot when a high-level player fails to dodge a high-level critter's attack. While the hit could explode a lower level player, it isn't as deadly for someone with the skill to better mitigate it.
>>This sounds like it might be a bit overkill, though. The formula could probably use some tweaking?
Basically, yeah. Box traps are essentially still set in "zoha-crit" mode.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
STELLARMAGUS
Re: Boxes, and deadly traps
05/12/2017 12:42 PM CDT
I would suggest making instagibbing traps a bit more rare, and perhaps replacing them with traps that kill more slowly. The kind that make you have to drop what you're doing and seek healing.
NIKPACK
Re: Boxes, and deadly traps
05/12/2017 12:57 PM CDT
<<I would suggest making instagibbing traps a bit more rare, and perhaps replacing them with traps that kill more slowly. The kind that make you have to drop what you're doing and seek healing.
This is what I'd like to see too. I'm fine with being put in danger, but I'd also like the opportunity to prevent that danger, even if it means I need to rush off and find help. I'd just like a chance.
Nikpack
This is what I'd like to see too. I'm fine with being put in danger, but I'd also like the opportunity to prevent that danger, even if it means I need to rush off and find help. I'd just like a chance.
Nikpack
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Boxes, and deadly traps
05/12/2017 01:05 PM CDT
>>I would suggest making instagibbing traps a bit more rare,
TBH insta-gibbing should flat out never happen unless you're way out of your weight class (similar to combat now).
Agree 100% that traps should make someone seek healing, though.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
TBH insta-gibbing should flat out never happen unless you're way out of your weight class (similar to combat now).
Agree 100% that traps should make someone seek healing, though.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
STELLARMAGUS
Re: Boxes, and deadly traps
05/12/2017 02:57 PM CDT
I don't prescribe to the "thou-shalt-not-one-hit-kill-thy-player" game design philosophy, but I understand the appeal of it. When done right, a little fear of a one-hit-shot is great for making some activities more tense (see games that break this rule, like Alien Isolation.) I suppose it just boils down to development direction and what sort of game we'd like to see DR become in the future. I support one-hit kills, personally, so long as they're done well (not often, and should feel like an engaging mechanic instead of simply the chore of dying.) Complete removal of one-hit-kills, while less than ideal, would still be better than poorly done one-hit-kills, though.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Boxes, and deadly traps
05/12/2017 03:10 PM CDT
>>I support one-hit kills, personally, so long as they're done well (not often, and should feel like an engaging mechanic instead of simply the chore of dying.) Complete removal of one-hit-kills, while less than ideal, would still be better than poorly done one-hit-kills, though.
I can support that view. My big thing is that I don't think DR is set to properly handle one-hit kills. If experience was more "instant gratification" and graves weren't a thing it would matter less. As it stands currently, dying from a trap (or a mob, really) just means "now I need to grind my magic script more". It's doubly annoying for traps because I work on them after hunting, which means I'm losing multiple combat pools, as well.
I know that you can get pools partially recovered these days when coming back to life, but it's still annoying to lose ground for trying to do basic training stuff.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
I can support that view. My big thing is that I don't think DR is set to properly handle one-hit kills. If experience was more "instant gratification" and graves weren't a thing it would matter less. As it stands currently, dying from a trap (or a mob, really) just means "now I need to grind my magic script more". It's doubly annoying for traps because I work on them after hunting, which means I'm losing multiple combat pools, as well.
I know that you can get pools partially recovered these days when coming back to life, but it's still annoying to lose ground for trying to do basic training stuff.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
DRSCOTT
Re: Boxes, and deadly traps
05/12/2017 09:03 PM CDT
>I don't prescribe to the "thou-shalt-not-one-hit-kill-thy-player" game design philosophy, but I understand the appeal of it. When done right, a little fear of a one-hit-shot is great for making some activities more tense (see games that break this rule, like Alien Isolation.) I suppose it just boils down to development direction and what sort of game we'd like to see DR become in the future. I support one-hit kills, personally, so long as they're done well (not often, and should feel like an engaging mechanic instead of simply the chore of dying.) Complete removal of one-hit-kills, while less than ideal, would still be better than poorly done one-hit-kills, though.
It just kinda breaks down when you have to grind out over a thousand ranks is all. I can train 30+ combat skills without serious fear of death if done properly. Or 1 skill, with a greater chance of death.
I totally agree with the other posts about seeking healing. I also like unique effects like bouncer boxes or mana traps. Or even acid/poison. Or losing a hand. I just think that insta-death traps actually give less depth because at the end of the day it's really just different flavor text for the same thing.
I mean, I normally hunt wyverns that set me on fire and drop me from the sky. I'm not afraid of some risk. But the insta-death just isn't fun.
And honestly, I wouldn't care about death that much except for scrolls. Especially in TF without a player economy, it is so hard to find the scroll you want that death is somewhat of a serious event.
It just kinda breaks down when you have to grind out over a thousand ranks is all. I can train 30+ combat skills without serious fear of death if done properly. Or 1 skill, with a greater chance of death.
I totally agree with the other posts about seeking healing. I also like unique effects like bouncer boxes or mana traps. Or even acid/poison. Or losing a hand. I just think that insta-death traps actually give less depth because at the end of the day it's really just different flavor text for the same thing.
I mean, I normally hunt wyverns that set me on fire and drop me from the sky. I'm not afraid of some risk. But the insta-death just isn't fun.
And honestly, I wouldn't care about death that much except for scrolls. Especially in TF without a player economy, it is so hard to find the scroll you want that death is somewhat of a serious event.
FAMEBRIGHT
Re: Boxes, and deadly traps
05/13/2017 02:47 PM CDT
I also don't mind being one-shot by the game, but I think the game is vastly improved when choosing to risk being one-shot is an interesting choice the game presents you with. The box system doesn't present you with an interesting risk/reward mechanic, it is just an old game system for which the mathematics scale out-of-bounds when you input today's ranks.
Boxes could benefit from actually using the vitality damage reduction mechanic -- I have no idea how it would even get coded, mind you. But in a perfect world, blowing a box would clip cut off a chunk of your vitality instead of your head. You can choose to slow down, get the help of an empath, or risk the next box or two actually kills you.
"Warrior Mages don't bother covering up their disasters.
They're proud of them." -Raesh, on history
Boxes could benefit from actually using the vitality damage reduction mechanic -- I have no idea how it would even get coded, mind you. But in a perfect world, blowing a box would clip cut off a chunk of your vitality instead of your head. You can choose to slow down, get the help of an empath, or risk the next box or two actually kills you.
"Warrior Mages don't bother covering up their disasters.
They're proud of them." -Raesh, on history
DRFREAK3
Re: Boxes, and deadly traps
05/25/2017 11:27 PM CDT
IMO stamina has no real effect past 60 or so, except for spell contest and stone carrying capacity.
It has little effect on vitality. Vitality loss appears to be on a flat rate, linear calculation, which is a bummer.
It has little effect on vitality. Vitality loss appears to be on a flat rate, linear calculation, which is a bummer.
DRSCOTT
Re: Boxes, and deadly traps
06/06/2017 11:03 PM CDT
>I'm popping xala boxes with similar skills, and I just don't use disarm quick, it's not worth the risk. Insta death boxes get disarm careful and I haven't had a death from boxes in months.
FWIW, I changed my script up a bit. I disarm the worst traps careful and drop them if I don't get them on the first shot. Learning fine, but missing out on lots of coin. The risk is significantly lower.
Still not liking the binary nature of it though. And totally agreed on traps making you stop and seek healing. Honestly, some of the more interesting traps for me are the unusual (mechanically-speaking) like mana, sleeper, acid, frogger, bouncer, etc. To me, the failure rate is too low but the damage is too high.
Anyway, thanks for a good discussion.
FWIW, I changed my script up a bit. I disarm the worst traps careful and drop them if I don't get them on the first shot. Learning fine, but missing out on lots of coin. The risk is significantly lower.
Still not liking the binary nature of it though. And totally agreed on traps making you stop and seek healing. Honestly, some of the more interesting traps for me are the unusual (mechanically-speaking) like mana, sleeper, acid, frogger, bouncer, etc. To me, the failure rate is too low but the damage is too high.
Anyway, thanks for a good discussion.
