Inconsistencies in ranks in PvP (Bard VS Moon Mage) 03/14/2017 01:09 PM CDT
Here's something very strange that I've noticed when playing around with a friend of mine. I can't help but think something is not right but I don't know what it is.

Stats of Person A (Moon Mage):

Strength : 45 Reflex : 70
Agility : 50 Charisma : 50
Discipline : 84 +13 Wisdom : 70
Intelligence : 70 +9 Stamina : 45

Evasion 640, shield 440, defending 450, light armor 460. No encumbrance, very little hindrance, no mixed armors, stanced 100% evasion 86% shield.

Stats of Person B (Bard):

Strength : 65 Reflex : 50
Agility : 30 Charisma : 50
Discipline : 50 Wisdom : 40
Intelligence : 40 Stamina : 40

Person B has 385 missile mastery, 380 melee mastery, 340 HT, and 200 polearms.

This was the result:

(Cliff Notes: Bard hits Moon Mage with LT, hit with HT, hit with brawling, hit with polearms, success with aether wolves, success with abandoned heart, success with Phoenix's Pyre, although the last is not shown)

When it comes down to skill, Moon Mage is has a very significant lead. When it comes to stats, Moon Mage also has a very significant lead. Yet... Bard is able to land physical attacks using various types of weapons AND has success with various types of SvS contests. Something doesn't seem right here.

Bard turns to face you.
>
* Bard lobs a haralun allarh at you. You evade.
The allarh lands nearby!
[You're solidly balanced with no advantage.]
>
* Bard throws a haralun allarh at you. You attempt to dodge. The allarh lands a good strike (3/23) to your chest.
The allarh falls to the ground!
[You're bruised, solidly balanced with no advantage.]
>
Bard traces a curving sigil in the air.
You decipher the telltale signs of the Abandoned Heart spell. [signature Bard (Emotion Control): advanced targeted]
>
Bard briefly spreads his arms outward and begins singing. A melody of profound sadness trembles its way from Bard's lips.
>
Bard sings in a wailing, eerily shaking voice:

"Home beckons me back, like a dream,
For my love sleeps with the end of days."

A horribly disconcerting feeling overcomes you, an overwhelming sadness that seems to sap your very will to live.
Your soul writhes, striving to leave your body!

Bard briefly spreads his arms outward and begins to sing. A few richly somber notes quickly cascades upwards into a haunting melody.

The high, clear notes of Bard's song define a drifting melody that easily soars into the higher reaches of his range.

A terrible howling resounds around you, coming from every direction at once! You freeze in terror, your body straining to keep still without your conscious control.

A terrible howling resounds around you, coming from every direction at once! You freeze in terror, your body straining to keep still without your conscious control.

* Bard throws a haralun allarh at you. You evade.
The allarh lands nearby!
[You're solidly balanced with no advantage.]
>
You hear something that resembles a wolf's howl, but recognize its origin in the discordant music in the air. You're not impressed.

* Bard throws a haralun allarh at you. You block with a lumium round sipar.
The allarh lands nearby!
[You're solidly balanced with no advantage.]

A terrible howling resounds around you, coming from every direction at once! You freeze in terror, your body straining to keep still without your conscious control.
(SUCCESS)

The final tones of Bard's song end with an abrupt flourish that leaves stark silence in its wake.

* Bard throws a haralun allarh at you. You dodge.
The allarh lands nearby!
[You're solidly balanced with no advantage.]

You notice Bard attempting to conceal his spell preparations.
Bard traces a curving sigil in the air.
You decipher the telltale signs of the Rage of the Clans spell. [Bard (Emotion Control): intermediate augmentation]
Bard gestures.
A wild fervor flashes in Bard's eyes.

* Bard throws a haralun allarh at you. You dodge.
The allarh lands nearby!
[You're solidly balanced with no advantage.]

Your azure cage momentarily buckles.
Your silver glow flares.
The air around you solidifies into a bright yellow glow and intercepts the attack with a shower of coruscating light.
* Bard throws a haralun allarh at you. You fail to dodge. The allarh lands a glancing (0/23) blow to your right leg.
The allarh falls to the ground!
[You're solidly balanced with no advantage.]

* Bard throws a haralun allarh at you. You block with a lumium round sipar.
The allarh lands nearby!
[You're solidly balanced with no advantage.]

* Bard throws a haralun allarh at you. You dodge.
The allarh lands nearby!
[You're solidly balanced with no advantage.]

You notice Bard attempting to conceal his spell preparations.
Bard traces a curving sigil in the air.
You decipher the telltale signs of the Aether Wolves spell. [signature Bard (Fae Arts): introductory debilitation]

Bard briefly spreads his arms outward and begins to sing. A few richly somber notes quickly cascades upwards into a haunting melody.

* Bard throws a haralun allarh at you. You evade.
The allarh lands nearby!
[You're solidly balanced with no advantage.]
>
The high, clear notes of Bard's song define a drifting melody that easily soars into the higher reaches of his range.
A terrible howling resounds around you, coming from every direction at once! You freeze in terror, your body straining to keep still without your conscious control.
>
You don't seem to be able to move to do that.
>dance
You don't seem to be able to move to do that.
>dance
You don't seem to be able to move to do that.
>dance
You don't seem to be able to move to do that.
>dance
You don't seem to be able to move to do that.
>dance
Your azure cage momentarily buckles.
Your silver glow flares.
The air around you solidifies into a bright yellow glow and throws off bright waves of light as it resists the attack.
* Bard throws a haralun allarh at you. You barely fail to block with round sipar. The allarh lands a light hit (1/23) to your back.
The allarh falls to the ground!
[You're bruised, solidly balanced with no advantage.]
>
You don't seem to be able to move to do that.
>dance
You don't seem to be able to move to do that.
>dance
You don't seem to be able to move to do that.
>dance
You don't seem to be able to move to do that.
>dance
Your azure cage momentarily buckles.
Your silver glow flares.
Bard inhales deeply before unleashing an ear-splitting shout directed at you. The concussive blast lands a light hit (1/23) against your abdomen!
[You're bruised, solidly balanced with no advantage.]
>
You don't seem to be able to move to do that.
>dance
You don't seem to be able to move to do that.
>dance
You don't seem to be able to move to do that.
>dance
You don't seem to be able to move to do that.
>dance
>
USAGE: DANCE (emote)
DANCE (<person>|<creature>|<item>)

Valid emotes: angry, awkward, badly, crazy, fiend, graceful, hands, happy, join, prance, roll, shake, silly, squat, stomp, unusual, or victory.

You hear something that resembles a wolf's howl, but recognize its origin in the discordant music in the air. You're not impressed.

Eyes blazing with an intense rage, Bard unleashes a single, prolonged shout directed at you. You stagger as the blast strikes your round sipar.
[You're bruised, off balance with opponent in better position.]

You say, "That was a long stun that time."

A terrible howling resounds around you, coming from every direction at once! You freeze in terror, your body straining to keep still without your conscious control.

* Bard throws a haralun allarh at you. You dodge.
The allarh lands nearby!
[You're bruised, solidly balanced with no advantage.]

Eyes blazing with an intense rage, Bard unleashes a single, prolonged shout directed at you. You leap aside.
[You're bruised, solidly balanced with no advantage.]

A terrible howling resounds around you, coming from every direction at once! You freeze in terror, your body straining to keep still without your conscious control.

You notice Bard attempting to conceal his spell preparations.
Bard traces a curving sigil in the air.
You decipher the telltale signs of the Demrris' Resolve spell. [Bard (Sound Manipulation): basic debilitation]

A terrible howling resounds around you, coming from every direction at once! You freeze in terror, your body straining to keep still without your conscious control.

You hear something that resembles a wolf's howl, but recognize its origin in the discordant music in the air. You're not impressed.

Energy explodes from Bard, forming concentric rings of tangible sound that sweep through the area like the fading ripples in a pond.

You glance at Bard suspiciously, unperturbed by the sudden waves of sensation and sound that flow away from him. Yet, somehow you remain secure in the knowledge that it is all just some sort of illusion.
The final tones of Bard's song end with an abrupt flourish that leaves stark silence in its wake.

Bard begins to advance on you!
Bard is still a distance away from you and is closing steadily.

Bard gets some steel charovras from inside his duffel bag.

* Bard throws a steel charovra at you. You dodge.
The steel charovra lands nearby!
[You're solidly balanced with no advantage.]
* Bard throws a steel charovra at you. You evade.
The steel charovra lands nearby!
[You're solidly balanced with no advantage.]
* Bard throws a steel charovra at you. You block with a lumium round sipar.
The steel charovra lands nearby!
[You're solidly balanced with no advantage.]
Your azure cage momentarily buckles.
Your silver glow flares.
The air around you solidifies into a bright yellow glow and throws off shimmering light in the wake of the attack.
* Bard throws a steel charovra at you. You fail to dodge. The charovra lands an ineffective (0/23) strike to your right eye.
The steel charovra falls to the ground!
[You're solidly balanced with no advantage.]

Bard closes to pole weapon range on you!

Bard closes to melee range on you!

* Bard punches his brass knuckle at you. You block with a lumium round sipar.
[You're solidly balanced with no advantage.]

Your azure cage momentarily buckles.
Your silver glow flares.
The air around you solidifies into a bright yellow glow, buckling and losing much of its mass under the force of the attack.
* Bard punches his brass knuckle at you. You barely fail to block with round sipar. The knuckle lands a brushing (0/23) hit to your right hand.
[You're solidly balanced with no advantage.]
>
* Bard punches his brass knuckle at you. You dodge.
[You're solidly balanced and have slight advantage.]
>'What's your brawling at?
You ask, "What's your brawling at?"
>
* Bard punches his brass knuckle at you. You evade.
[You're solidly balanced and in good position.]
>
Bard says, "345."
>
* Bard punches his brass knuckle at you. You block with a lumium round sipar.
[You're solidly balanced and in strong position.]

* Bard punches his brass knuckle at you. You block with a lumium round sipar.
[You're solidly balanced and in strong position.]

* Bard punches his brass knuckle at you. You block with a lumium round sipar.
[You're solidly balanced and in superior position.]

* Bard punches his brass knuckle at you. You block with a lumium round sipar.
[You're solidly balanced and in very strong position.]

* Bard punches his brass knuckle at you. You block with a lumium round sipar.
[You're solidly balanced and in very strong position.]
>
* Bard punches his brass knuckle at you. You block with a lumium round sipar.
[You're solidly balanced and have slight advantage.]
>
* Bard punches his brass knuckle at you. You block with a lumium round sipar.
[You're solidly balanced and have slight advantage.]

Your azure cage momentarily buckles.
Your silver glow flares.
The air around you solidifies into a bright yellow glow, losing most of its mass under the force of the attack.
* Bard punches his brass knuckle at you. You barely fail to block with round sipar. The knuckle lands an ineffective (0/23) strike to your abdomen.
[You're solidly balanced and have slight advantage.]

Bard gets a haralun allarh from inside his duffel bag.
>
Bard says, "Let's try something completely ridiculous."
>
Bard says, "200 polearms."
>
* Bard thrusts a haralun allarh at you. You block solidly with a lumium round sipar.
[You're solidly balanced with no advantage.]
>
* Bard jabs a haralun allarh at you. You dodge.
[You're solidly balanced and in good position.]
>
Your azure cage momentarily buckles.
Your silver glow flares.
The air around you solidifies into a bright yellow glow, collapsing under the force of the attack in a silent cascade of glassy fragments that vanish before reaching the ground.
* Bard feints a haralun allarh at you. You barely fail to block with round sipar. The allarh lands a skimming (0/23) strike to your right hand.
[You're solidly balanced and have slight advantage.]

* Bard thrusts a haralun allarh at you. You dodge.
[You're solidly balanced and opponent has slight advantage.]
>
* Bard feints a haralun allarh at you. You dodge.
[You're solidly balanced and opponent has slight advantage.]
>
Your azure cage momentarily buckles.
Your silver glow flares.
* Bard thrusts a haralun allarh at you. You barely fail to block with round sipar. The allarh lands a light hit (1/23) to your right arm.
[You're bruised, solidly balanced with opponent in better position.]
>
Your azure cage momentarily buckles.
Your silver glow flares.
* Bard draws a haralun allarh at you. You attempt to evade. The allarh lands a light hit (1/23) to your left hand.
[You're bruised, solidly balanced with opponent in better position.]
* Bard draws a haralun allarh at you. You block with a lumium round sipar.
[You're bruised, solidly balanced with opponent in very strong position.]
>
Bard says, "That's too frequent for luck."

* Bard feints a haralun allarh at you. You block solidly with a lumium round sipar.
[You're bruised, solidly balanced with opponent in strong position.]
>
* Bard thrusts a haralun allarh at you. You evade.
[You're bruised, solidly balanced with opponent in better position.]
>
* Bard thrusts a haralun allarh at you. You evade.
[You're bruised, solidly balanced and in better position.]
>
Your azure cage momentarily buckles.
Your silver glow flares.
The air around you solidifies into a bright yellow glow and intercepts the attack with a shower of coruscating light.
* Bard thrusts a haralun allarh at you. You attempt to evade. The allarh lands a light hit (1/23) to your neck.
[You're bruised, solidly balanced and in better position.]
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Re: Inconsistencies in ranks in PvP (Bard VS Moon Mage) 03/14/2017 02:14 PM CDT
>>Something doesn't seem right here.

For Aether Wolves hitting, it's Charm vs Fortitude. Charm is Cha/Dis/Int, in that order. Fortitude is Sta/Dis/Str, in that order. So Bard's 50/50/40 vs your 45/84+13/45. Mana investment also boosts the effectiveness of that charm attack. You can't typically boost your fortitude defense. I'm not entirely surprised the Bard won this one.

For the random/occasional light hits, I don't think that's a sign that anything is wrong. Keep in mind that, with the way the RNG plays out in 3.0, I sometimes get a light hit from a ship rat (or sometimes miss a ship rat), with combats in the 400-500 range. It's not a sign of anything being wrong, though. It's rare, but it happens. I know the Bard mentions it's too often to not show something is up, but it's a light hit landing as he's swinging over and over with you doing nothing to maintain position.



Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
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Re: Inconsistencies in ranks in PvP (Bard VS Moon Mage) 03/14/2017 03:13 PM CDT

>> For Aether Wolves hitting, it's Charm vs Fortitude. Charm is Cha/Dis/Int, in that order. Fortitude is Sta/Dis/Str, in that order. So Bard's 50/50/40 vs your 45/84+13/45. Mana investment also boosts the effectiveness of that charm attack. You can't typically boost your fortitude defense. I'm not entirely surprised the Bard won this one.

Do we know the weighting on the stats anymore (primary, secondary, tert)? I vaguely recall a GM stating they moved SvS stat weighting to be roughly equal, but can't find the post. I also recall that attacks get a benefit to the contest.

It's also unclear what effect "succeeding" has. Let's say the bard succeeds with the slimmest of margins, but has enough mana + potency to make the debilitation last 20 seconds. The appearance is that the bard won the contest by a heavy margin, but in reality they barely succeeded but were able to amp the results.

In an ideal world we would be able to see success rolls and then potency rolls. Or messaging to that effect.

I also wouldn't generally use Bard cyclics in any general SvS comparison. Who knows what sort of shenanigans are under the hood with those spells.
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Re: Inconsistencies in ranks in PvP (Bard VS Moon Mage) 03/14/2017 06:00 PM CDT
I saw the Bard put up Rage -- were there any other buff spells used on both sides?

Regarding the weapons, Bards are able to boost both Offense Factor (Rage) and Agility (Drum), which can together mean a potent aid to hitting something. It does not seem out of the range of possibility that this Bard could barely hit this Moon Mage with those skills and stats, especially given 0-1 strikes happen against any foe at random. Even without Rage/Drum, the small sample you showed seems entirely possible.

Phoenix's Pyre and Abandoned Heart are not SvS but depend on the Bard's TM skill, which you didn't list. Aether Wolves is Charm vs. Fort, which was already covered.

I also noticed that the Bard failed with DMRS and failed twice with pulses of Aether Wolves.

Overall, to me, this matchup suggests a Bard with just enough TM and stats to gain some success on the cyclics, but who doesn't possess the weapon skills to make any actual hits.


- Navesi
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