> I'm wondering if it could be considered that instead of granting XP for a large cast, a steady amount of xp is constantly awarded as long as the spell is active on you?

I'd like to second this, I actually was going to post on the same subject and ask if a minor, I repeat minor amount of exp could be awarded while augmentation / warding spells are present because of the fact that it is very hard to keep these skills moving at any decent rate while still trying to kill creatures in combat. I have no problem with debilitation, it seems to me anyway that this can be kept up pretty easily, but if I want to train warding or augmentation I have to leave combat and spam cast the spells to train decently.

I figure a small exp awarding from having these spells currently on you, plus casting them in combat would make them usable.

Or for warding at least, a small amount of exp gain per attack deflected. Example: MAF helping deflect a blow would gain a bit of exp in Warding skill.

Learning isn't directly tied to mana used. Try using smaller mana casts to disable challenging opponents. We specifically made it so you wouldn't have to mana dump just to train :P

---

"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

Now those I believe do require decent mana applied. Make sure you are casting spells challenging for your skill range. DISCERN should be able to help with identifying what those are.

What class are you, how many ranks do you have and what spells and at what mana have you tried them?

---

"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

>>To work them decently I just have to go out of combat and cast them over and over again, which works, but doesn't seem like it is an efficient way of doing things in 3.0.

I suppose I don't know what being a Necromancer has to do with it, but to some extent magic has always required actual training of the spells to move skills along. Exp may yet need to be adjusted, so don't worry too much yet. We'll do some investigation ourselves first.

---

"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

This is potentially doubly problematic for Necromancers, who will have to rely on Transcendental spells for training, which if spammed over a period of time, will eventually cause DO.

Oh geez... That makes Debil on the barb a breeze.

Any other syntax I'm missing for the other characters that'll make Aug/Warding/Debil way easier? No chance of 'CAST QUIET BURDEN' eh, to hit the entire room?

>>Herein lies the problem I think. I'm a necromancer so I don't want to have to cast the bulk of our augmentation and warding spells at high mana.

With ~700 Arcane, ~500 Warding, and ~600 Augmentation, I can move warding with Manifest Force around 90-95 and Augmentation with Researcher's Insight at 90-95 as well.

---

The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).

Just to echo, the learning I feel is low here. I chain cast shatters today (my debil skill is not very high) on orcs for a good while and moved it 'ok'. I was spending about 10 minutes chain casting as often as I could and just getting to about 20/34.

I also think learning in general for spells just seems a bit to low, or requires too much chain casting. I would like if extra mana improved the rate of learning somewhat, so we can choose to chain fire spells (more efficient) or dump lots of mana into a spell (more single action exp) to better manage how we want to train. Otherwise I think we are spending way too many commands on just learning magic and makes it hard to work along side other skills.

I'm actually really enjoying spell learning exp right now. The first thing I did was find my max cast rate for each spell type and then try and find an AP alternative (necro.) At first I was alarmed that I needed to wait for full prep (>20 seconds) to cast at my personal cap, but it became a lot easier once i started working cambrinth in. Once I started using Cambrinth that 20 second wait turned into a 5-6 second wait after using charge + invoke.

#1) Cyclics train ridiculously well. Anyone who has a cylcic can basically ignore the spelltype because it basically trains itself. Steps of Vaun and ROC come to mind. You also need raw channeling and the cambrinth feat helps.

#2) In 2.0 you had to spam spells to train, this is no different. Instead now you just rotate through spells.

These are my exps after spending about 3-4 hours learning what was best to cast spellwise, etc. It takes awhile to figure out the best mana for each spell difficulty because every spell type is at a different level after the grandfathering.

Magic: 165 31% nearly locked (33/34) +3.39
Utility: 125 78% nearly locked (33/34) +4.31
Attune: 187 03% enthralled (32/34) +2.44
Arcana: 110 19% enthralled (32/34) +3.00
Shield: 150 72% very rapt (31/34) +0.35
Augment: 147 57% very rapt (31/34) +2.27
Defend: 160 43% very rapt (31/34) +0.32
Chain: 144 42% very rapt (31/34) +0.38
Warding: 115 55% very riveted (29/34) +2.25
Debilit: 129 74% very riveted (29/34) +0.58
Evade: 170 59% engrossed (27/34) +0.73
Sorcery: 22 05% scrutinizing (17/34) +0.92
Scholar: 139 18% dabbling (1/34) +2.05


These are the spells im using with min prep and personal spell caps. They all train at least 1 rank per cast. You definitely have to cast near your personal range.

Warding Manifest Force|5|27
Augmentation Ease Burden|5|30
Utility Rite of Contrition|5|5|Cyclic
Debilitation Viscous Solution|14|22
Sorcery Instinct|5|10

I think really it's just a different mindset here. In 2.0 you HAD to spam spells, it was just the same spell. Here, you have to work multiple spells and it takes a lot more effort, including combat for debil exp.

I would just keep messing around and find out what trains best. There is definitely a right/efficient way to do things now, we just need to find it.

> Cyclics are far and away the best choice for training

I bet bards sure have it rough.

>>Adopting a FA style experience system that awards XP for 'bandages being on a patient' more than 'bandaging a patient' seems a better use of our mana and training.

A GM basically said they're going away from this model. Perform an action and watch a skill keep learning without doing anything is something they don't seem to like.

---

Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.

-GM Abasha

>> Then I hate to shoot myself in the foot here, but I really think cyclics need to have their xp dropped, and normal spam casting have it's xp upped.

Definitely. Socharis just reduced cyclic exp. Now he needs to up normal exp. The main problem is that you need to cast at personal mana cap to get the good exp, and that takes 20 seconds per cast.

>> I think debil should be the same as TM...if you can hit it effectively...it should teach

Debilitation should train at the same level as TM. The only difference is you have to cast debilitation at or near your personal mana cap. TM does not need this.

Make sense?

>> I'm sorry, but everyone else has to deal with their primaries outstripping their secondaries and tertiaries. It's just the way it works.

Welcome back!! I also completely agree.

You people are complaining that you were able to get magics to XXX, and even after a 40% exp reduction, you still can't learn from combat? I do not feel for you.

>> Targeted Magic: 627 01% clear (0/34)
>> Debilitation: 678 22% clear (0/34)

50 ranks could be a huge gap. Are you saying that if you had 678 TM you would learn? Are you capping out your mana for Debil?

As a warmage debilitation seems kind of broken. I'm at ~900 and about a half hour casting capped TCs timed right when 4 juvies get unstunned gets me to around 8/34, anthers goes to 1/34 every other cast at 100 mana. Seems like very little experience for such a taxing cast. Haven't tried IP yet but this seems insanely difficult to learn compared to warding. I also learn virtually nothing from CL but a lot from snapping 5 mana FS every 2 seconds, meanwhile I learn no TM at all from ring of spears which absolutely demolishes everything. Also I noticed some similar problems with utility but haven't gone too far trying to solve that problem yet. Seems like the exp system with magic is a little bit unreliable so far.

>> Seems like the exp system with magic is a little bit unreliable so far.

No, you just don't know how it works yet.

If you can cap a "basic or intro" spell at 100 mana, it's probably not going to teach you. You have to move up to the hardest spell you can find, e.g. esoteric or advanced.

Think of personal cap as a sliding scale where ranges overlap.

intro 1 mana ___ 100 mana
..... basic 10 mana ___ 100 mana
..............advanced 30 mana ___ 100 mana
............................ estoteric 50 mana ___ 100 mana

>>the problem obviously isn't weak spells or weak casts

You're possibly getting the lion's share of your debil experience from casting at your personal cap, but that's supposed to be an additional amount tacked onto actually having a challenge against the critter.

When I am using debils at-level, I don't really need to cast above minimum to really see debil move.

---

The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).

>I'm sorry, but everyone else has to deal with their primaries outstripping their secondaries and tertiaries. It's just the way it works.

This has nothing to do with what I'm talking about; my issue isn't that Debilitation isn't training in the critters I'm hunting (it is), it's that spam casting non-cyclic, non-AoE spells trains very poorly.